Morch

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You sure of that? Israel would have economically opened up Gaza if not for Hamas? You know that for a fact? Israel helped prop up Hamas because it didn't want the PA to look better by comparison. You think if the people of the West Bank see that if Gaza were allowed to prosper under a system that allowed Gaza to prosper it would just exacerbate anger against the Israeli government that there is no such likelihood of Israel allowing it for them? 

I know that you chopped my post for no good reason.

As for your comment - I am sure this won't happen overnight. But long term, without Hamas (or clone of) about? Yes. It won't make life in the Gaza a paradise, but much better than currently or since Hamas took over. There were talks about related measures for years. All which were discussed on similar topics (many with your participation). From Egypt's point of view as well, Hamas out of the picture would probably mean easing up of restrictions.

No idea what you wanted with the convulsed bit about comparing the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

1)What countries ever had a problem donating to the UNRWA before this Hamas issue came up? Got any candidates in mind?

2) Ought to be? That's your argument? There's "ought to be" and then there's reality.

3)Your comment about difficulty betrays no acknowledgement of degrees of difficulty and whether the result would even be worth it. As noted, the residents of Gaza overwhelmingly hate Israel and that's the workforce in place. All that effort to exclude what seems to be a small number of terrorists? Could it even succeed in doing that? 

4)Your last point reminds me of people who say that those who advocate for higher taxes should voluntarily pay more. As though that was a solution to anything. Deflecting much?

 

I suggest that you read the OP. It references such reservations. This is not even the first time these issues came up, or funding withheld. Also notice that I said 'may be more willing to donate' - as in possibly increase funding.

Your second item is meaningless. The reality is that they weren't seriously pressured on this, and I think would be in the future. It also relates to the issues mentioned regarding Palestinian factions/politics.

My comment about difficulty is on par with what was presented in the interview. As for the result being 'worth it' - I've no idea what's your actual point or complaint is. This was addressed in more detail on another post.

I don't care much of what things you're reminded of. Deflecting much?

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't see you addressing the points I cited much less what's in the article.. And keep in mind that even in peacetime, Gaza depends on the UNRWA. And what would such a transition accomplish. I think hatred of Israel is pretty much universal in Gaza. It seems inevitable that some will be alliied with Hamas or other violent organizations.. Where are the workers for the relief agencies going to come from?

Gazans would not have to depend on UNRWA is Hamas was out of the picture. The whole economic situation in the Gaza Strip stems from Hamas's rule, and its agenda/actions.

Gazans may hate Israel, with good reasons. Question is how many of them hate Hamas as well now, or afterwards, when things calm down some. As for your 'inevitable' assertion, go back to step one. If there's no Hamas to coalesce and organize such violence, it is of lesser concern, and can be addressed.

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Interesting article in the Times of Israel in which a UN official explains why replacing the UNRWA is unlikely to succeed.

 

"With such a large number of local staff in a territory controlled by a terror organization, Hamas’s infiltration into the agency was inevitable, a senior Israeli official told The Times of Israel.

De Domenico notes that the salaries of the local UNRWA staffers are on a far lower pay scale than those received by employees recruited by other agencies, so switching to another agency would cost a lot more money, which donor countries are not likely interested in spending."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/

 

That's a couple reasons right there. Others are addressed in the article.

The link above is to the website's main page, the article can be found here:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-proposals-to-fund-other-agencies-instead-of-unrwa-not-viable-senior-aid-official/

Other than this being another Mandy Rice-Davies act, one could point out to several issues with the points raised:

- Some governments may be more willing to donate knowing Hamas and/or UNRWA are out of the picture.

- Arab countries ought to be more involved in said funding - some of that is directly related to political issues vs. either Palestinian faction.

- The argument that it's difficult is not a good enough answer, not if the end result is that you get a more streamlined, transparent, Hamas-free outfit.

- As for salaries, maybe some of the involved high level officials (including the guy interviewed) could lead by example.

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

You are taking my words and twisting them to suit your purpose of trying to demean me and thereby implying that what I say is not true.

- The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.) 

 

- And I never said or suggested that Hamas was doing or considering releasing hostages as I suggested. I only suggested that would, IMO, be a good tactic to employ in an agreement.

Morch, you are just too biased to treat any opinions that don't fully support Israel's position in this conflict as mistaken, false, or even outright lies. I know it's impossible for you to do, but I'm getting really tired of responding you your complaints about my post over and over again.

Palestinians want their land back, but they're being led by Haman, who are terrorists. Israelis want to control all of the lands within their state's boundaries, but they are being led by Zionists, who are extreme right-wing, militant, nationalists. That is the bottom line here, and neither side will change unless they are wiped out or some third parties intervene and enforce some kind of agreement that is based on a two-state solution.

 

I have copy-pasted your own words, verbatim. You're 'recollection' has nothing to do with anything, I presented you with what you posted. Here it is again:

Quote

I see little value in a limited deal if, when it has been completed, Israel will just renew its killing of virtually all Palestinians within its state's boundaries

You can 'believe' what you want, but facts are that this is what you posted. I did not twist your words or alter them. What you may have meant, what lame backtracking you offer, this is neither here nor there - what you actually posted is real, not an 'opinion'. Also - 70,000? Why not 7 million while at it? Maybe it's your 'opinion' again? Who knows. The actual figures are, of course, much lower, and they include Hamas men. There is no need to 'imply' what you say is not true - it's simply not true.

As for your bogus second complaint regarding hostage exchange tactics - it was not claimed that Hamas was doing or considering to do so. That was part of the point - it was more to do with you going an extra mile, that extra step to where even Hamas did not dare tread. Either you completely failed to comprehend this (how?) or you're willfully deflecting with some nonsense 'objection' to something imaginary.

Here are your words again:

Quote

I'd recommend that any hostages needing medical attention and the elderly be released during the first phase, but the rest of the hostages should be released during the next two or three phases in the reverse order suggested above. The next group would be single men, and the last group would be women with children and lone children.

Go on and talk some more about lies....why don't you.

Regarding your last bit:

The Palestinians are not led by Hamas (nice Freudian slip there with Haman, echoing Netanyahu's Amalek reference). Palestinian politics have been dominated by schism between two main factions/parties for years now - Hamas and the PA/Fatah. Hamas does not lead all Palestinians, and arguably, not even all Gazans. In the same way, you misrepresent Israel's positions and political situation, again using your own home-made nonsense terminology which got no bearing in real life. You've been doing this from the start, and still at it - despite this being addressed numerous times. Zionists are not what you claim, there are moderate Zionists, pro-peace Zionists and so on. There is no 'bottom line' such as you claim.

3 hours ago, WDSmart said:

If the release of the hostages was part of an overall agreement and it was based on the completion of some actions by Isreal, like a ceasefire and withdrawal, or the establishment of some 3rd-party, neutral peacekeeping force, then the release of all the hostages, (like the last group) would supposedly happen when all that has occurred. If all that hadn't occurred, or if Hamas had not released the last group, then the agreement would have been violated, and the peacekeeping force should intervene and force compliance. 

Hamas already violated the terms of the previous hostage release agreement.

A peacekeeping force could not 'intervene and force compliance' - that's not what they do, or what they are for. They are more like observers.

11 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Put your thinking cap on for just a moment. How did the IDF uncover a tunnel under UNRWA's headquarters? It would not be possible without either blowing up the headquarters, or IDF soldiers illegally breaking into it.

 

What you are misleadingly presenting as a tunnel shaft into the organization is probably a tunnel running underneath it. How did they know this? How did they find it? There is literally no information. This story is 2 days old, and it has not been picked up by any western media.

 

There might be a tunnel running underneath it - apparently there are tunnels underneath all of Gaza. There will not be a tunnel shaft running into UNRWA.

 

@Brickleberry

Again, you do not know the details. You make up some. Then go on to treat them as facts.

Rinse. Repeat.

As for your last bit, how do you know that? Where you there? Did you build it?

11 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I know exactly what is contained in the report - no evidence. You can keep bleating on about this, or you can accept mainstream independent Western Media who have analyzed these documents and found them to be lacking any evidence whatsoever. You obviously didn't watch the video, as the report showed several pages. They even said at the start of the video "we analyzed all 16 pages of the intelligence dossier". Stop lying about what the report is, and what it contains.

 

Did you not know that this Israeli government is far right? There are literally people who have been convicted of terrorism in the government (Ben Givr). The entire world reports that this is a far right government. We both know you know this. Stop deflecting, admit when you are wrong. 

 

It wasn't my opinion that I referenced. It was a picture of the laws all signatories must abide by, from a reputable source - the UN. Governments are concerned which is why the EU is now backtracking and is talking about resuming funds. Biden is currently being sued in the USA for enabling genocide and the court has accepted the case. The ICJ has ruled that genocide is plausibly being committed. How many more court cases does Israel need to lose for you to pull your head out of the sand? How many more UN resolution s does Israel have to break - I think we are at 26 legally binding orders it is ignoring. How much more of the West Bank will Israel steal until you pull your head out of the sand? How many more Palestinian deaths will it take?

 

I haven't avoided it like the plague, you just keep spouting this nonsense and ignoring the facts that media has seen the report and reported on it. I have answered you several times already - it is unconscionable, unfathomable and immoral. Even if the allegations were true - which they are not - 0.009% of employees does not represent the 30,000 members of staff UNRWA has. Ignoring the facts that Israel wants this organization destroyed, and has publicly stated its intentions over decades should not come as a surprise to someone who claims to be informed. In fact, Israel's allegations should be taken with a truck load of salt because of its clearly stated goals to destroy UNRWA. Quite why governments are doing this is beyond me. It truly is. Even if the allegations are true, it is such a small minority, and the aid MUST continue. The ICJ has ordered that more aid MUST reach the Palestinian people. What these governments are doing is illogical, immoral and absolutely insane! These governments who are shirking their duties are the ones who are in control of UNRWA, renew its mission, elect the heads of it. etc. It's like they don;t trust themselves - ridiculous!

@Brickleberry

You do not know what is in the report. You claim you do. The news outlet you talk about did not see fit to release the actual document, make it public and so on. I don't see this being the main story on all Western media. I do not see relevant governments scrambling to defend their actions after the segment was aired. You treating things as gospel is not an indication of anything much.

The current Israeli government is a coalition one. While it is right-wing, the far-right elements are not the majority in this coalition, and obviously they are no majority when it comes to Israel as a whole. They certainly punch above their weight, though - given Netanyahu's ongoing political weakness and legal issues. What you originally posted seemed to be a wider claim, referencing the entire country, all of its people. This is incorrect. Further, the current emergency coalition includes a centrist party usually on the opposition. In the war cabinet itself, where actual decisions are made regarding the war and IDF actions, there are no far-right representatives (much to their chagrin), but the new addition (that centrist party mentioned) does. As usual, you make big claims, without actually bothering with details.

The same goes for the dubious legal angle you try to push. Other than in your posts, I do not see a whole lot of talk about it, at least not from solid sources. Again, relevant governments do not seem too worried about this. The commentary following this got nothing to do with the point you were trying to make.

And still, avoiding it like the plague. You can rant all day, but bottom line you cannot address it, cannot explain it in any rational manner - your only answers are either solipsism, conspiracy theory stuff, or assuming you are more informed than the governments in question. All three verities are ridiculous in their own way.

8 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I didn't call you any names. I used trolling as a verb, and questioned whether you were trolling or not being serious.

@Brickleberry

Of course you were.

36 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Stupid comment. There are no findings in the report. Only unproven allegations.

 

 

Completely true. Israelis even have their own versions of history. For example, they believe that Palestinians were not forcibly expelled during 1947/48. They believe that the Arabs just launched attacks at them for declaring a state.

 

Nope. The Israelis were forcibly evicting them in the hundreds of thousands, rape, murder, poisoning their water - which is a war crime documented by the Israeli soldiers who did it, and the Red Cross. Israelis are indoctrinated to believe that they are eternal victims and innocents in this conflict, which is categorically, empirically false.

 

No I'm not a legal expert. But I can read the ICJ rulings, the UN conventions. They are quite clear on the matter.

 

 

Channel 4 read the report and reported on it saying there is no evidence. So now you won't believe it until the report is released? Interesting. Your quite happy to jump on the bandwagon and de fund UNRWA without seeing a report at all. But when evidence comes out that the report is BS you must see it to believe.

@Brickleberry

What is it with you wannabe 'pro-palestinian' posters and chopping posts? Why can't you just quote like normal posters? It's such a lame 'debate' tactic, pathetic. At times past this was not allowed, but with the new winds, maybe it's on.

You have no idea what's on the report. You keep pretending that you do, but you do not. Give it a rest. All you've got to go on is a report - which did not actually release the information to the public. Unless you think that Israel sent them governments one typed page and 15 blank ones, you're just talking nonsense.

You claim that the far right wing took over Israel. You do not bother to actually support, or demonstrate it with anything. You just state it as fact, and plunge on, expecting it would stick. Nations having differing historical narratives, especially with conflicts which are still going on, is quite normal. The Palestinian versions of history are a mirror image and aren't very accurate as well. You trying to paint things in a totally one-sided way is beyond ridiculous, especially concerning the subject matter of the topic - remember them Palestinian textbook used in UNRWA schools? Don't recall you whining about that). And, just in case you weren't aware, schools in Israel follow differing programs - there's no single unified one in each and every school).

And indeed, you are no legal expert. You're a hyper-biased poster who often makes incorrect, over-the-top comments. Taking your 'opinion' as to legal matters is a choice. As said, them governments do not seem particularly concerned on that score.

Your last comment is simply you failing to read my posts. I do not know, or pretend to know what was in the report Israel presented to the governments of donor countries. I do know that a bunch of them decided to act on it, and in a very decisive manner - which is unlike their past responses to past allegations. I do know that such decisions involve a whole lot of people within each and every government. So to assume they are all idiots, all clueless, or all somehow suddenly colluding with Israel or fulfilling its wishes on a whim - is not very reasonable, or likely. You avoid addressing this issue like the plague, bringing up every semi-relevant deflection.

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

Although the two are joined at the hip, they are both seeking different agendas. Netenyahu's aim it to is multi-faceted. Firstly; he would like to see a broader Middle East war, with the US and UK involved naturally. He wants to chuck out all Palestinians from their homeland. He - and his Zionist psychopathic team - are trying desperately to keep him out the nick.

 

Biden on the other hand is looking forward to election time. He is way behind in the opinions and has to temper his hung-ho statements. American sentiment has changed.

I doubt you could support your theories about Netanyahu's intentions and wishes with anything much.

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

I'm anti-genocide.

Nah, you'd have little issues if Hamas was ever successful doing what they wish.

Don't be coy.

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Thank you for listing the two points you have concerns with. I'll address them first.

- I'm sure I never said or implied that "Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries." What I probably said, and what I mean now, is that Israel would like to "eliminate" all the Palestinians within its state boundaries, and that, of course, includes Gaza and the West Bank. Now, by "eliminate," I mean kill or force out. I'll tone that back some to also suggest "control." 
- I never suggested "that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute." I proposed that as a bargaining tactic, and it wasn't until "the last minute." It was a staged release that mirrored a staged ceasefire and withdrawal by the IDF, and the implementation of a UN peacekeeping force.

I won't address the points above about what I believe to be the goals of both sides, which factions are now in charge, and the equivalency of the slaughter done by both sides. I think I've covered them enough for now

I would prefer to see an official UN peacekeeping force put into place to enforce a ceasefire, but any and all of the pressures you've mentioned above would be welcomed. And, yes, also to try to keep Hamas from launching any more attacks. 

As I've said over and over again, I believe a two-state solution is the ONLY kind of solution that will ever even begin to resolve this horrible situation. Right now, I would support a prior suggestion of a return to the UN's 1947 map when they recognized the state of Israel. That would, of course, present a lot of problems, all (many) of which I've noted before, but a two-state solution or a continuing state of "war" are the only two options that I can see right now.

I have never equated my opinions to be equal to facts. I have said I do have opinions, and will continue to have them, and that I don't always trust what are presented to be (especially here, by you) as "fact." As I've said before, I believe you are just too biased on this subject to be able to decide for me  (and everyone else) what the "reality" is. 

Here is what you actually posted up-topic:

Quote

I see little value in a limited deal if, when it has been completed, Israel will just renew its killing of virtually all Palestinians within its state's boundaries

Renew implies this was going on before. Israel's borders do not include the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. This not happening, and it did not happen in the past. And, other than in your imagination, there is no unified Israeli view on most things - this one included. You'll find groups who are all for it, others who are anti-Zionists like yourself, and a whole lot of people and views in-between. Not having much knowledge regarding the things you post about is one thing, making bogus blanket statements is another. Most people could, through their life experience, appreciate that in any nation, any society, one will find a range of political views. Your 'toning back' is no better - it does not betray anything that's relevant to the current war, or indeed the the wider issues of a two-state solution, as both have to do with things outside Israel borders. Your nonsense comment, the way you framed it, refers the Arab citizens of Israel.

And with regard to the hostages:

Quote

I'd recommend that any hostages needing medical attention and the elderly be released during the first phase, but the rest of the hostages should be released during the next two or three phases in the reverse order suggested above. The next group would be single men, and the last group would be women with children and lone children.

Tell me more about 'I'm sure I never said or implied', or ' I never suggested'....You can't even follow you own posts? Can't be bothered to check what you posted?

And there you go again - bringing up points, calling for responses and discussion, then declining to address comments made. You've done this more than once on these topics, it's getting old. You're either being dishonest, or you're being dishonest. No two ways about it.

You have, again, failed to actually address the performance of UN peacekeeping forces, even as they involve current affairs. Simply parroting the same nonsense over and over again will not make your point become more valid. Peacekeeping troops do not 'enforce' anything. Get your facts straight. These aren't 'opinions'.

And sure enough, you've dodges the issue regarding Israel quite possible not being able to renew it's offensive vs. Hamas - which was the reason for mentioning them 'pressures'.

What you would support is of little significance or importance. It is at a disconnect with what's already a mostly agreed upon framework. You simply cannot bother reading up on things, so you go with your 'opinions', thereby posting out of touch commentary. No on seriously expects a return to the 1947 lines. It is neither feasible, not fair. It's just your 'opinion', and that's very little to go on.

You routinely treat your 'opinions' as equal to facts, even when presented with evidence that you are wrong. What you trust or don't trust doesn't change that. Almost everything I commented on is either common knowledge or strongly backed by sources.
 

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But the did manage it in the past for hundreds of years.

@billd766

More of a myth, than an accurate account.

As with most historical examples, and references, a 'wee' bit more complex than that.

One reason we're often asked not to go into them history lessons/debates.

Given the general level of knowledge on this forum, it's a good thing.

52 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal,..."

"Normal," what is that? Is that the "normal" before 1947 when the UN created the state of Israel? Or is "normal" the division of land that was in place right after the creation of Israel? Or is "normal" the way things were on Oct 6, 2023? 

Normal.

As in no bombings.

As in no more Gazan casualties.

As in Aid pouring in to the Gaza Strip.

If you think Gazans would refuse going back to how things were in 6/10, you're wrong.

56 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, that is why I have recommended having a UN peacekeeping force put into place to help coordinate and enforce all the aspects of any agreement. 

How effective are/were UN 'Peacekeeping' forces in Syria, Lebanon? You are aware of things between Israel and Hezbollah, right? And you are, presumably, aware there's a UN peacekeeping force in place?

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

@retarius

Does that mean you have a new issue lined up to blame Jews about?

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

In my previous post, I was not "deflecting." I was trying to get the discussions on this Forum back on Topic.

My list above is becoming more and more the talking points being discussed on CNN, my primary source of news. It is true that both sides want the same thing - total control of the land now called the State of Israel. I agree there are various factions on both sides, but I was referring to the faction now in charge on each side.

I now see what I believed was the "equivalency" of the Oct 7 attack and the subsequent Israeli bombing of Gaza. Now, it's clear that the bombing has become much more egregious, with, now, almost 30,000 killed and nearly 70,000 wounded.

Gaza health ministry: 27,708 Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza since Oct 7 (alkhaleejtoday.co)

It is true that when Hamas releases all the hostages after a ceasefire that Israel could then just renew their military operations. You mention above there would be "constraints involved." Who would enforce the constraints? I suggested that in every one of my suggested proposals, and wanted a UN peacekeeping force to do that. You said a UN peacekeeping force could not, so who is it that YOU think (excuse me, "know for a fact") could enforce any constraints?

I don't see the use of hostages as a bargaining point any worse than I see the bombing of civilians. But that's what is happening right now, so, IMO, we need to figure out how to weave these into any agreement.

I know a two-state solution has been proposed many times before. But now, IMO and in a lot of other's opinions, it must be discussed again because I see no other way this horrible situation will ever be solved.

I am able to "grasp the details and facts involved."  I do agree, however, that I am unable to "meaningfully 'discuss' anything"...with you. But I'm sure we'd disagree on just why.

 

 

You were most definitely deflecting, running away from addressing two 'points' you put up before that:

- An allegation that implied Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries.

- A suggestion that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute.

The first is a lie, the second is vile (even Hamas didn't go that far).

You don't want to address them, fine - not expecting anything meaningful anyway. But do not claim that you're not deflecting, when you obviously are.

The list you put up is not quite what's discussed on CNN, at least not in the manner and biased way you present things. Maybe that's how you 'grasp' what's being commented on, but it's not quite what you're on about.

It is not true that both sides want the same thing. For starters, you can't even identify the sides, relying instead on some personal nonsense definition which do not conform to political reality. You are even wrong with regard to 'the faction in charge' on each side. These are basic facts. Not 'opinions', facts.

You can assert or believe that there's an equivalency. That does not make it into an agreed upon position, or one generally accepted. So once more, either inaccurate, or dishonest. Pick one.

As for Israel renewing operations after a ceasefire and hostage exchange, this may be so, but it is far from a fact or a done thing, as you make it to be. For starters, the Hamas is not unaware of this, and requires assurances regarding this. Constraints would be anything from the Hamas regrouping during the ceasefire, or breaking the agreement again and holding on to hostage after regrouping, or the cost and operational validity of withdrawing from the Gaza Strip and going back in again being too great, or the USA putting it's foot down, or whatever. If Israel was to sign an official agreement, or agree to unofficial arrangement (but, say, with USA as a side) I doubt it could walk out of it, or break it very easily. Noticeably you do not raise the possibility of Hamas renewing hostilities, or breaking the agreement - in your 'opinion' these are things Israel would do, but not Hamas.

You've made your despicable view of Hamas's use of hostage taking and holding on to hostages clear. Even the Hamas didn't go there. You take the extra step. And expect to be taken seriously. Or your 'opinions treated as some 'balanced' view. Bizarre. Vile. Goes hand in hand with using propaganda memes and pushing Hamas talking points.

You don't seem to know a whole lot about the content of past discussions regarding the two-state solution, or your wouldn't come up with such inane 'plans', as you did. Almost all of the talk regarding the two-state solution references these past discussions. Somehow, you feel that these could be ignored, and that the whole thing should be done from scratch, based on your uninformed 'opinions'. Nobody is seriously talking about a two-state solution materializing right now, or even right after the war. This will not happen. The talk is about how to renew the peace process, how to make it viable. There's virtually no serious view that advises sorting the two-state solution first, then deal with the Gaza situation - which is basically what you're on about. What this showcases, again, is your lack of interest in the people involved. You don't mind them suffering some more. In that too, not so different from Hamas leadership.

You have just demonstrated, again, that you do not grasp details and facts involved. Also, if you follow your own posts and interactions, you do not actually manage to discuss much with anyone - most of your exchanges get stuck real quick in that quagmire of you insisting on your 'opinion' being equal to facts, and your made up definitions meaning something in reality.

Pretty messy garage, but nice car.

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I am not so sure that if the USA halted all arms shipments to Israel, that it would make that much difference, certainly in the short term.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

 

The defense industry of Israel is a strategically important sector and a large employer, as well as a major supplier of the Israel Defense Forces. The country is one of the world's major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2017 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world's top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1][2] It is also a major player in the global arms market and is the 6th largest arms exporter in the world as of 2014.[3] Total arms transfer agreements topped $12.9 billion between 2004 and 2011.[4] There are over 150 active defense companies based in the country with combined revenues of more than $3.5 billion annually.[5] Israeli defense equipment exports reached $7 billion in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. With the war in Ukraine, arms exports reached $12.5 billion in 2022.[6] Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[7][8][9] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.[10][11]

 

What may or will make a big difference, is how many defence workers have been called up and either injured or wounded in the current conflict.

 

It may be however that those workers, both male and female may be exempt from military service as essential personnel. That is something I have no knowledge about.

 

It also maybe that in the short term Israel could temporarily halt arms exports and divert those exports for its own use.

 

It is of little use for the UN and governments worldwide to keep talking and wringing their hands. IMHO it is long past the time for talking and time for the world to actually DO something to stop BOTH sides from continuing this senseless, pointless slaughter of the innocent people on BOTH sides.

 

Neither Netanyahu nor who is running Hamas this week, ( As of November 2023, Yahya Sinwar continues to be the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Hamas control of the northern part of the Gaza Strip came to an end in January 2024, according to Israeli government statements), seem to have any interest in stopping this. Hamas have attempted to do something with the ceasefire plan that Qatar and Egypt have come up with, although they want to modify it.

 

Netanyahu and Israel have rejected the plan outright.

 

Where does the world go from here I wonder?

 

My thought is to take Netanyahu and Yahya Sinwar into a room and bang their heads together to knock some sense into them, until they come to a peace plan.

 

 

@billd766

You can obviously access Wikipedia. So it's not unreasonable to assume you can look up how Hamas leadership operates. It's not about a single guy. It's not 'who-runs-it-this-week'. A whole lot more to it.

Hamas's conditions are a non-starter. And Israel's outright rejection was expected. These things follow certain forms. It's always like that. Nothing new or surprising about how this goes.

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Channel 4 obtained the same report, this is proof that there is no evidence. What more do you need? An Israeli spokesman to come out and say "Yeah, we made it up"? Some people just won't believe the facts when presented with them. Not my fault. I'm not making it up, so are you accusing Channel 4 of lying in their reporting?

 

Police, NHS etc are all large organizations. When small percentages of them do something wrong, we don't stop their funding. Funding continues whilst investigations are run. Lucy Letby was paid while she was under investigation. So were police officers who were accused of grave crimes. UNRWA has already fired the ones who Israel smeared, and an investigation is underway. Yet many governments responded by cutting funding to an organization supporting over 2 million people - almost 85% of which are crammed into Rafah which is about to be ground assaulted by the IDF - air strikes have already killed people there.

 

So according to you, if a country is signed up to the genocide conventions, they are not obligated to do everything in their power to prevent it? Either you are trolling, or you are not a serious person. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml

 

My position on Israel's existence is that it did indeed deserve to be a country.

 

However, now that the far right wing has completely taken over and has indoctrinated their children to hate Arabs and that they are the only legitimate indigenous people who deserve to be free from the river to the sea... that Israel does not deserve to exist. It is a pariah internationally, this is not a controversial view. When right wing, fascist governments take power, people's rights invariably suffers. Kick out the right wing and start negotiating. Leave the occupied territories. Stop controlling the West Bank and snatching Palestinians out of their beds at night - locking them up without any charges or legal recourse. Israel will not be safe until it abides by international law. How many do you think are being radicalized right this second? tens of thousands dead, tens of thousands seriously injured, unknown numbers of bodies under the rubble. Settler violence and IDF war crimes in the West Bank. And this will keep Israel safe?

 

From the above:

Quote

Either you are trolling,

23 hours ago, Rimmer said:

Its one thing disagreeing with another member but something else flaming them and calling them names and trolls.

I have just removed a number of these flames from posts in order to preserve the content, but next time I will remove the entire post and replies so best to stop the name calling now 

This should be interesting. Let's see what happens.

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Channel 4 obtained the same report, this is proof that there is no evidence. What more do you need? An Israeli spokesman to come out and say "Yeah, we made it up"? Some people just won't believe the facts when presented with them. Not my fault. I'm not making it up, so are you accusing Channel 4 of lying in their reporting?

 

Police, NHS etc are all large organizations. When small percentages of them do something wrong, we don't stop their funding. Funding continues whilst investigations are run. Lucy Letby was paid while she was under investigation. So were police officers who were accused of grave crimes. UNRWA has already fired the ones who Israel smeared, and an investigation is underway. Yet many governments responded by cutting funding to an organization supporting over 2 million people - almost 85% of which are crammed into Rafah which is about to be ground assaulted by the IDF - air strikes have already killed people there.

 

So according to you, if a country is signed up to the genocide conventions, they are not obligated to do everything in their power to prevent it? Either you are trolling, or you are not a serious person. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml

 

My position on Israel's existence is that it did indeed deserve to be a country.

 

However, now that the far right wing has completely taken over and has indoctrinated their children to hate Arabs and that they are the only legitimate indigenous people who deserve to be free from the river to the sea... that Israel does not deserve to exist. It is a pariah internationally, this is not a controversial view. When right wing, fascist governments take power, people's rights invariably suffers. Kick out the right wing and start negotiating. Leave the occupied territories. Stop controlling the West Bank and snatching Palestinians out of their beds at night - locking them up without any charges or legal recourse. Israel will not be safe until it abides by international law. How many do you think are being radicalized right this second? tens of thousands dead, tens of thousands seriously injured, unknown numbers of bodies under the rubble. Settler violence and IDF war crimes in the West Bank. And this will keep Israel safe?

 

@Brickleberry

Again.

Channel 4 claimed it was the same report. The actual content of the report was not divulged by channel 4. The report was not made public, so all you got to go on is Channel 4's claim. I'd expect someone who pretends to be a legal expert to get this the first time. It's really not complicated. Channel 4 could publish the contents of the report, make the full document available to the public. Not aware that they did so. And no, not necessarily lying - it would not be the first time a news outlet published an incorrect story, or one relying on partial/misunderstood details and so on. Happened quite a few times with regard to this war alone. If you're having trouble with this, think back about previous times on these 'discussions' you had to backtrack, admit you were wrong and so on. So no, I'm not calling them 'liars', I'm saying it doesn't add up - and that at this stage it's not 'proof'. Again, I find it astonishing that you either don't get it or pretend not to.

The Police, the NHS and so on are not international UN bodies, and their funding is through approved state budgets, not donations. It's only same same if one tries to lamely deflect. There is no obligation to donate, or to continue to do so. It's up to the governments of the donor countries. Funding of such things as a police and a national health service is mandated by law. Also, you've tried this nonsense before - maybe come up with some new stuff?

According to me, you are not a legal expert. The governments of countries in question do not seem concerned about the 'legal' angle you raised. I guess that they get advice from actual legal experts. You saying it's an issue doesn't make it so, given your obvious bias and vehemence, you're bound to say pretty much anything that will 'support' your 'cause'.

Your position regarding Israel, as expressed in a previous post (and others) was, basically, that them dastardly Zionists tricked Western Governments (may want to check who voted how...) into proclaiming it a state (never mind that the same included a Palestinian State), along with wild allegations about them 'supporting' the Nakba etc. So get a clue and make up your mind.

And you go on with them blanket statements

- 'the far right wing has completely taken over': Not true.

- 'indoctrinated....blah blah blah': Not true.

Israel is not a Pariah state, other than in your imagination and wishful thinking. It is not a controversial view, it's a nonsense, propaganda one. Did your government sever ties with Israel? Applied sanctions? Or does it support the findings of the UNRWA report? Maybe have economic and security ties with Israel? No? Or maybe you're gonna try some lame 'the government does not represent bit'? You've tried that too - but coming on the heels of your previous comment regarding Israel it would seem rather silly....

Any other deflections and nonsense on offer?