Morch

12 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I still wait that you condemn even one time the actions of Israel.

As long as you don't do this I assume you are ignorant or paid for your comments.

There is no point arguing with a PR agency.

I still wait for you to actually read comments instead of making up stuff.

Also, as far as my memory goes, alleging posters are paid to post is not an accepted thing on this forum.

Of course, things might have changed, or some posters may be exempt from censure for making such allegations.

45 minutes ago, bannork said:

Look, Israel has been bombing Gaza since October, killing thousands of innocent civilians. 

I'm sorry to 'go on' about the murder of so many children, etc. 

Hamas are evil, but my god, Netanyahu and his butchers are creating another Hamas right now by this wholesale murder. 

 

It's not about 'going on'. It's about quantity and quality. Your sort do the one-liner Hamas Bad thing to get it out of the way, then a whole post about how Israel is the worst thing ever, or 'the same' (but pouring more words into it). Similarly, the rhetoric used is often different. More heated when it comes to criticism of Israel, more subdued when it relates to Hamas. So no, not buying into it much.

Most do not argue that the death toll isn't high. Or that a whole lot of the casualties are innocents.

But then again - what do you think Israel should have done differently? How was Israel to address things after the 7/10 attack?

And also, where is Hamas's responsibility in this? These people are their people, under their rule - not accountability demanded?

Creating another Hamas? Like the original Hamas was about to disappear or something? This isn't about winning hearts and minds.

18 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

Pro Putin, yep.
anti Murica... War wise yes , same goes for the Uk in that respect.

haha, so it's trump that made it commonplace for name calling...... so it never happened here before nasty trump made the left go crazy.. ok then

Nah, you're pretty much anti-USA, or even anti-West across the board.

Wouldn't know where 'Murica' is.

It did happen before Trump, he took it to a new level, normalized it.

4 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

 

i like anyone that stands up to the US, they have bullied weaker countries for decades and killed millions in the name of 'democracy' who has Putin bullied? do you want to compare wars that RU and US have been involved in over recent history?

and when it comes to name calling, what, killery...wow, did that hurt your feelings?
if you want to complain about name calling then flick through the last thread related to Trump, plenty of names being thrown out there and it wasn't from the Trumpers i can assure you. 
 

You're anti-USA.

You're pro-Putin.

If you need to ask who Putin bullied then you're either not paying attention or beyond redemption - a full range of choice between domestic targets and neighboring ones. Never mind dissidents abroad.

I'm not the one ignoring Russia's previous life as the USSR, you are.

Using demeaning names does not hurt my feelings, it lowers the quality of discussion (which ain't much to speak of as it is).

And the name calling thing, which indeed spread to the ranks of the other side as well, is a product of Trump making it commonplace.

Some are into it, some aren't. I'm not. Up to you. Forum rules about that are what they are, regardless if enforced or not.

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Lies, lies, lies.

 

Maps do not lie. You can look at them on the UN if you care to.

 

It was called Palestine. The British mandate for Palestine.

 

Yes, they rejected it. That does not mean that Israel is entitled to more land. It means the Palestinians rejected the Israelis taking over 54% of the land, even though they represented less than 20% of the population.

 

You are misrepresenting facts. The 1967 map is a true, proper map. Your talking about Egypt and Transjordan occupying palestinian lands during the war up to 1949 - the armistice lines.

 

The now map represents what has been stolen. They have control over their lands? Is that why IDF soldiers can freely arrest and snatch people out of their beds in the West Bank... I think not.

 

Until Israel follows the law, they cannot expect others to.

@Brickleberry

Some maps do, some maps don't. What an odd statement.

The ones you posted are obviously misleading, as addressed above.

It doesn't matter what it was called, it wasn't 'Palestine' in the sense of a Palestinian State. An 'honest' map would have made that clear by using a different color scheme.

The Arabs (not Palestinians yet, back then) rejected the UN resolution. You want to argue against the UN resolution? Go ahead, it would also imply no basis for a Palestinian State, though. Can't have it both ways.

I am not 'misrepresenting' anything. The map keeps using the same color for 'Palestine' in order to create the impression that there was such a state, or an area controlled by Palestinians. This was not so.

No, Palestinians do not have complete control over their lands. But what control they have now is the most they ever had. That's a fact.

You have nothing to say on topic. You just offer one-sided anti-Israeli rants and Palestinian propaganda talking points.

Useless.

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

What are you on about? How on earth would anyone know what is going on - the tunnel is 18 meters under the ground!

 

It is a tunnel. It is underneath the UNRWA HQ. There are no entry or exit shafts.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-discovers-hamas-tunnels-under-unrwa-gaza-headquarters/7482769.html

 

@Brickleberry

A long time ago, in a country far far away, the city started extension works on the metro with some of that directly under the building where I was renting (and surrounding buildings). Fifth floor, on a rocky hill foundation, and tunneling going way deeper than 18 meters. Buildings would sometimes shake, cracks, power cuts and what have you.

Try harder.

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Strange logic? Huh?

 

IDF: There are approximately 650 kilometers of tunnels underneath Gaza and the tunnels are everywhere.

Land area of Gaza: 365 kilometers squared.

 

So there are more Km of tunnels than total land area. A tunnel is found underneath the courtyard of UNRWA. Is it surprising?

 

If there were tunnel entrance shafts from UNRWA properties into the underground tunnels, you would win me over. That would be proof of UNRWA's involvement, and I would accept that.

 

Just having a tunnel running underneath it doesn't prove anything, but it is a great smear tactic just when countries are starting to rethink their blockade of aid into Gaza. Its also a great way to stop us all talking about the lack of aid getting into Gaza because of the IDF. Israel is very good at controlling the narrative.

@Brickleberry

You talk about 'logic'?

Tunnels measuring kilometers in length does not imply that they occupy the same area as kilometers squared.

Go back to school.

And no, nothing would 'win you over'. I seriously doubt you won't come up with some other daft excuse for Hamas.

It's not 'just a tunnel', it's a major center. A whole lot of electricity needed, too.

Talk about 'controlling the narrative' from someone who constantly tries to hijack topics is a laugh.

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian lands. They are not separate. They are not separate countries. They are the same people. Stop trying to justify Israels actions by dividing their areas into smaller and smaller pockets of land.

 

Until Israel obeys international law and defines its borders according to the 1948 partition plan - which Hamas has agreed to do since 2018. Hamas changed its charter and said it would accept a permanent ceasefire based on the legal borders. The Palestinian people have said they would accept this. The Arab league has said they will accept this and will immediately recognize Israel, trade with Israel etc. The whole world is waiting for Israel to follow the law, and give back the lands they have seized by force illegally.

 

@Brickleberry

That's a Palestinian propaganda meme. It misrepresents facts.

There was no Palestine in 1946. Not as a Palestinian State. And not all of the land painted green was owned by 'Palestinians'.

The 1947 Partition Plan map glosses over the fact that the 'Palestinians' rejected it.

Same goes for the 1967 map - The 'Palestinian' land depicted was actually controlled by Egypt and Jordan (the latter annexing the West Bank, even). Palestinians were not into talking peace or a two-state solution back then. There was no 'Palestine' then either.

The 'Now' map actually shows the opposite of what's intended. It's the first instance in which Palestinian have a measure of control over their lands.

This bogus meme was posted, discussed and taken down numerous times over my years on this forum.

You either have no idea what you're talking about, or you do - and push lies anyway.

1 hour ago, frank83628 said:

i have been a fan of Putin way before Trump, i like him for standing up to the US, he wont be bullied, the US throuws sanctions around and many places tierd of it and making ties with out the US..... the Dollar is being dropped but these too,
his invited assistance in Syria stopped the Yanks in their tracks..yanks who were there illegally i might add, and are still illegally occupying the oil rich areas and stealing the Syrian oil.... i expect you support that though. 

whats wrong with calling hillary.....Killery.....did you not see her cackle when asked about Gaddafi 's murder?.. you support that too?

I don't really care when you became a Putin fan, Putin fan.

You like dictators, or wannabe ones.

You're alright with Putin bullying countries, starting wars and killings.

And you're anti-USA.

Most of that implied in my original post to you.

And yes, calling people by stupid names is childish, and against forum rules.

It's more of a Trump thing.

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You might try reading that Times of Israel article before pronouncing what I posted to be a meme. And the nytimes article, too.

It's a meme, in the sense that such comments were made numerous times in the past.

13 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That's a great question!

 

Hamas were not even around when Israel starting breaking the law. Hamas (formed in 1987) have only been around for 35 years or so. Israel has been breaking the law since 1967.

 

Lets not even talk about the forced displacement of the indigenous Palestinian people in 1947 + 48. Poisoning their drinking water, killing them, raping them, burning their villages to the ground - This was illegal. Israel has been breaking the law since its inception. 

@Brickleberry

More Israel Bad rants.

More bogus one-sided history lessons.

More nothing on offer regarding the OP.

25 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Well, when someone is breaking the law and has been doing so for over 56 years.... what else do you expect me to say?

 

If you break the law consistently and show such disregard for it, you can't then complain when the victims rise up and punch you in the nose.

@Brickleberry

I don't have much expectations from you, by now.

Staying on topic doesn't seem to be too hard, though.

And, obviously, this is not about the entire conflict, or even solely about Israel.

Go on justifying Hamas actions.

Then whine when Hamas and the Palestinians get punched in the face.

Read the headlines, read the OP.

You're not on topic. Not complicated.

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why is that obvious? The claim is that weapons are still getting through the border. The evidence is....? As the Times of Israel article pointed out, Egypt has taken even stronger measures to stop smuggling. The NY Times article also addressed that issue.

Because Egypt 'taking stronger measures' or saying it would is pretty much a meme, in this context.

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And you think Egypt's level of concern hasn't changed from almost 4 months ago now that there are 1.45 million Palestinians living on the border and actually under threat? That Israel has put increasing pressure on Egypt to take over the Philadelphi border?

I think you're intent on seeing things a certain way.

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Apart from the fact that the most uncritical supporters of Israel are Evangelicals who comprise a big portion of the Republican base.

And ?

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

I did not "deflect". I made a statement of fact regarding the OP. The OP is in reference to action/s by the US government, not other countries. Pulling other countries making statements or not, is IMO Off Topic

You're entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is that you're deflecting.

And as said, I think my comment holds regardless.

Most of the focus is on Israel's actions, strategy and so on - relatively little said about Hamas' choices and strategy, how they contributed to this situation, or how they effect Israel's options.

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I did enjoy your comment that none of the options offered by the IDF seemed "fully satisfactory". This looks like an officialese way of saying that the are impracticable. But if not, please explain  not "fully satisfactory" means.

 

If it was just me citing what Egypt believes, you might have a point. But it isn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

And someone would have to be living in a denial of reality to doubt that given the assault on Rafah and Israel pressuring to take over the southern border, Egypt wouldn't feel alarmed.

There is this from that article:

Mr. Netanyahu has said that Israel must control the zone, known as the Philadelphi Corridor, and analysts say Egypt is worried that Israel wants to seize it as a means to push Gazans into Sinai.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

 

And there is an article from Reuters datelined February 9th that says Egyptian fears of a cross border incursion have been sharpened by the refugee crisis in Southern Israel: I can't quote or link to Reuters but since you have the dateline and if you string together the words Egypt Security Israeli Offensive Gaza Reuters together (feel free to copy and paste) that article will pop up.

 

Instead you just assert that the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been settled and laid to rest. As for my response to that, see above.

 

And, of course I argued no arguments absolving Hamas. I criticized Israeli strategy and tactics. A critique hardly offered by me alone. But thanks for setting up the straw man. Any more arguments you would care to falsely ascribe to me?

 

As for the last point that you called nonsense. Do you honestly have no idea what Facts On The Ground Means. I guess I'll have to spell out the obvious to you. If Palestinians do cross the border into Egypt and are settled in refugee camps there, why wouldn't it be a legitimate fear that Israel won't let them back in? That it won't take advantage of this exodus? Because it's unprecedented in Israel's short history?

 

Unsatisfactory, as in not providing full or good enough solutions. Not too complicated. Not quite what you presented it as.

What you posted got little bearing on my comment - not all statements accurately reflect concrete issues, many are warnings, broadcasts of positions, and so on.

Take for example the notion that Israel wishes to control the Philadelphi Corridor as a means to push Gazans into Sinai. Israel would not need to 'control' this in order to make it happen. It's a bogus idea. The issue with that is more about Egyptian sovereignty regarding the border, and the peace agreement details between the countries. The refugee bit is a relatively new addition to this complaint, I think.

The issue of settling Palestinians in Sinai has been laid to rest. Won't happen. Even accepting claims regarding Egypt's 'fears' at face value, that's not a thing.

You criticize Israeli strategy and actions as if they are taking place in a vacuum, and have nothing to do with Hamas's strategy, choices, and actions. Not a straw man, and no false comments. Try harder.

Indeed, I do not see how Israel could deny their return (if such was on the cards, even - so far this is just talk).

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Unfortunately , Washington DC is part of the Israeli occupied territories. 

@sirineou

Unfortunately, some posters are invested in Jews-control-America antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Wouldn't occur to you that the ones pushing for this are manufacturers, governors and representatives of states where plants are at? Relevant unions? Nah, let's go for the conspiracy theory.

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Name of the topic: Israeli soldier videos from Gaza raise international law concerns

 

My post: Commenting that Israel has been breaking international laws for decades.

 

How is this not on topic?

@Brickleberry

By your logic, if the word 'video' is included, one could go on about video software editing as well.

Lame deflection.

You do not address the OP, but rather offer a standard issue one-sided Israel Bad rant.

Same hijacking attempts on pretty much all related topics you're commenting on.

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

 

Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that what Hamas does was wrong and what Israel does is also wrong.

The big differences are that Israel is doing it on a much bigger scale for months and with the money and support from the USA.

Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that what was said wasn't condoning the actions described in the OP.

The point made was about the level of criticism, the amount of, and the one-sided nature of it.

Your same same argument is weak, ignores the point made, and even the immediate context.

7 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I'm glad to hear that! It would be a bit strange if you did, because you were not directly affected by these events.

 

Is it not sad that we are talking about who hates each other more? It is pathetic tbh. Israel must start to live up to it's 'democratic, law abiding' status. It is willfully breaking over 26 international laws, is committing war crimes in real time - we can all watch them on social media and the news. We know that the West Bank and other Palestinian lands are under occupation and they live under the control of Israelis. This is just insane! We know this is wrong, the world courts have judged that what Israel has been doing over 5 decades is wrong. Yet still, we blame Hamas.

@Brickleberry

Anything on topic? Or just the usual Israel Bad stuff?

Noticeably, no expectations of the Palestinians, whatsoever.

24 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Your post is right, but so is the OP, lets get back on topic - Israeli soldiers committing war crimes.

 

At the end of the day, no one can deny that Israel is in breach of over 20 international laws. It willfully ignores the international community and the International court of Justice and has been occupying Palestinian lands for over 56 years. Until Israel starts to follow the law, they cannot complain when they are being attacked by the people they are oppressing.

@Brickleberry

So basically, you're calling for others to return to the topic, then go right ahead and spew off-topic commentary.

And justifying Hamas at the same time.

Great.

25 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

It is not antisemitic to criticize Israel. Israel does not represent all Jews in the world.

@Brickleberry

The poster in question has a history of making openly antisemitic comments. Up and including an assertion that Judaism is a 'murderous religion'.