Morch

What have the Palestinians done (constructively, that is) to attain the goal of statehood, independence and freedom?

I thought it was in memory of the Bowling Green Massacre

No, that's your own version of things. Facts are different. The Gaza Strip was not always under blockade and 'siege'. This is something that came about, gradually, in response to Palestinian attacks (more recently and specifically, Hamas) on Israel. It was not placed on a whim, not just to spite or harass the Palestinians - there were (and are) good reasons for it. Your hyperbolic use of 'concentration camp' and the obvious insinuation are dully noted. There is 'react', and then there's what the Hamas attack was - pure evil.

Hamas self-implicating political leadership.... Hamas official: Non-military leaders ‘surprised by date, not by actions’ of shock onslaught https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-non-military-leaders-surprised-by-date-not-by-actions-of-shock-onslaught/ Out goes 'it's-only-the-militants', 'only the military wing'....

Why wait? Can do both at the same time.

I see your Jim Jordan, and raise you Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Isn't it denying first, denying later? I forgets....

At least there's something we can agree on.

Chinese tourists drop by 75,093 following shooting in Bangkok https://aseannow.com/topic/1309200-chinese-tourists-drop-by-75093-following-shooting-in-bangkok/ That was quick....

Indeed. All this energy their spending on preparing, announcing they're preparing, pointing fingers and making daft excuses could have fueled at least a couple of flights.

How much might this 'modernization' cost? I seem to recall (could be wrong) almost any new government in the last 20 years or so being faced with some huge, often vague carte blanche hint of budget request/demand by the military (directly or indirectly).

The acid drop kind, many years ago, on a beach in Phangan (I think). Sandy beach, clear night sky, small waves. A nice girl by my side. Magical.

Oh, wow - I'm not on your ignore list anymore? That was quick.... No, it is not the same. Israel does not specifically plan ahead and target civilians, children and the elderly. People get hit when military actions are taken - and while regretful, it is part of war. Intentionally, deliberately doing so is murder. This attack was off the charts, the response will be the same and worse. As you posted on and on previously, reap what you sow. Prepared as in made provisions for the general populace. You know, making an effort to protect the safety of the civilians under their rule. Nothing whatsoever was done, as usual. Moreover, Hamas called on Gazans not to evacuate, even.

The part about the Hamas stance vs. the Israel response is actually the part I can 'understand'. It makes a sort of twisted sense, from their point of view. Immoral, for sure, but there's some internal logic to it. The barbaric attack, though? Nope.

He is most certainly responsible for bad policy, bad decision making, and for the political divides in Israel. Hopefully, this would spell the end of his political career and more. But that's something for the Israelis to contend with after the war. At least Israelis are resisting their bad leadership - something which cannot be said much about the Palestinians. Quite interesting how often people go on, in detail, about Netanyahu, and seem relatively clueless when it comes to Palestinian leadership.

I'm making a point that many comments on here demand Israel behave in an angelic, unrealistic manner. While at the same time minimizing Hamas's actions and conduct. It's not enough to merely label them as 'terrorists' and say oh well. Nothing was said by myself about Israel actions being 'perfectly acceptable''. I acknowledged that they are not, both with regard to the historical backdrop, and previous iterations vs. Hamas even. With regard to the current situation, I said that it's uncharted territory, and that I expect reaction will be off the scale. It might not be pretty, nice, or even 'legal', but it will happen nevertheless. I can understand that, and to a degree, accept it. I support the notion of not putting up bogus loaded questions.

No. This didn't make any sense whatsoever. I can understand their hatred toward Israel, and the motivations to their past attacks and where they come from. This one, other than the moral angle, doesn't even start to make sense. All their goals could have been achieved without it, and with greater effect. It is no tit-for-tat, it is not payback, it's evil.

Thanks for making my point.....

Normally, yes. Not sure about this case, though. Some actions go beyond understanding. There could have been many ways to carry this attack without deliberate wholesale murder of innocents. They planned it meticulously for months, practiced for it. They knew what will come later, and deliberately did not prepare for it.

When Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip, the Hamas could have chosen to make it into a demonstration of how a peaceful Palestinian state would look like. The went for something else. When the Palestinians were offered a state (UN Partition Plan, 1947) - it was rejected. Following that, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan for nearly 20 years - the Palestinians made no serious attempt to proclaim statehood or independence. Following the 1967 Israeli conquest and occupation, Palestinians yet again embraced rejectionism for years on end, preferring a futile 'struggle' instead. I think the recent Hamas attack dealt a massive blow to any slim chances remaining that some agreement could be reached on that score.

Hamas is a Palestinian social organization, political party and a terrorist outfit rolled into one. Even though it enjoys mass popular support among Palestinians, it is not that all Palestinians support it, or that it is accepted as representing all Palestinians. There's a bitter, lengthy, political divide among the Palestinians. Been that way for years now.

The attack was planned long ago, though. Also, no high costs involved, so would be peanuts for Iran, and Hamas could even manage it on its own. Netanyahu's strategy for some time now was to pacify Hamas by facilitating Qatari funding for 'civilian' purposes.

Hamas seems pretty proud of the attack on Israel. Lot of Gazans celebrating. Same in the West Bank.

US citizens were murdered, US citizens were kidnapped. Not too hard to understand.

Guess you're not really up to date on military matters. Artillery nowadays can certainly fire precise ammunition. I don't think Israel claims to fire 'only on Hamas targets' in the sense you imply. That the point of telling everyone to evacuate.