Morch

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

What is the matter with you?!! What difference does all this make?

I heard the "diversionary tactic" on CNN this morning when I first heard them report on the incident. I've said over and over and over again that we'll have to wait for probably DAYS before we'll have any numbers on the people killed (and maybe the breakdown by categories).

Here's the bottom line:
- The IDF went into Rafah in Gaza and rescued two hostages;
- While doing that, they killed a number of Palestinians. The figures range from "a dozen" to "over 100." How many of those were civilians vs. Hamas fighters, we don't know.

Okay????? 

 

And....?

4 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I have heard on CNN's TV News that the Palestinian dead could be as many as 60. I have no link for that, but I'm sure those numbers will continue to be made available to us as the day goes by. And anyway, whether it was 10, 20, 40, or 60 makes no difference to the point I am making. That is, many of you on this Topic place no value on the lives of the Palestinians. Sixty dead for two released is okay with you. That, to me, shows your bias and anti-Semitism. Shame on you!

Update: CNN in now reporting "over 100" Palestinians killed." 

Hamas doesn't value the life of the Palestinian he rules (ruled?).

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I think everyone ought to make sure they read in this report that includes my emphasis.

- "...the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) successfully rescued two male Israeli hostages from the city of Rafah in Gaza, amidst heavy Israeli airstrikes targeting the area. The hostages, identified as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, were found to be in good medical condition after their rescue and were swiftly transported to an Israeli hospital for further evaluation and care."

...and, "Conflicting reports emerged regarding the casualties from the airstrikes, with figures ranging from 37 to 52 Palestinians killed, including children, according to various sources. The disparity underscores the chaotic and volatile situation on the ground, with Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry condemning the Israeli military's actions as indiscriminate and disproportionate."

 

So, the bottom line is two elderly hostages were rescued and were found to be in good health. The cost for that was 40 to 50 (or more) Palestinians killed, most of them probably civilians.

Two apparently well-treated hostages were rescued at the cost of 40 to 50 other people's lives, and many of you on this Topic see this as a reason to celebrate. This is, in essence, a perfect example of your despicable biases.  

Who took them hostage? Who placed them among civilians?

3 hours ago, transam said:

I think you are reading something that isn't there, chap.........😏

Trying to inject, more like...

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

This is the only Ham-mas I support

 

 

Understanding that these people hate their oppressors does not equate to support. Analyzing comments made about them (rapists) and pointing out that there is a lack of evidence to prove this, is not support. Accurately translating their name as 'resistance' fighters - just like the French resistance - and calling them freedom fighters is an accurate depiction of their struggle against their oppressors. This is not support. Acknowledging all of the injustices the Palestinians face, and understanding why they need these groups is not support. They have committed atrocities. Israel has committed atrocities. We shouldn't get stuck in the long blame game of who is worst... because quite frankly, it isn't even a fair fight. Israel would lose just based on total death count alone.

 

The world needs to step in. Israel cannot be left to deal with this, as it is one of the aggrieved parties, whilst also being one of the aggressor parties. As is Hamas. The international community needs to put things right, because it is the international community that caused all of this in the first place. This was not started by Jews, Zionists, Israelis, Palestinians, or Arabs. This was a problem started by European countries, so European countries should now step up and fix what they started.

@Brickleberry

You do not just 'understand' them, by identify with them. Running interference on each unflattering topic, trying to derail those that don't fit with your (and their) agenda, denying almost everything putting them in a bad way, constantly posting half-truths, outright lies, and banging on with the same one-sided narrative.

There's understanding, and then there's going the extra mile. You're a couple of steps further.

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

How that relates to me previous response I have no idea but then I never know what the mind of  Hamas supporter has 

It doesn't. He just slings mud at every opportunity hoping it sticks.

6 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

ONE sentence from a non Zaka source, with the other half of the sentence following on from the Zaka guys and you think I am incorrect? PHHH. Get stuffed. The whole article is from a Zaka source. Literally.

 

The police officer is quoting testimonies from other anonymous Zaka people. Think about it - how did someone witness repeated gang rape within such a short space of time, and did not get caught themselves? Why haven't ANY victims come forward?

 

The modern world we live in has set standards for evidence. This does not amount to any credible evidence. You need a survivor. You need semen samples. You need CCTV. Barring CCTV, you need a witness to corroborate your claims.

 

You need something, not a bunch of broken bones which is what happens in a war zone.

 

It is notable that the Israeli government has already started to wind down the systemic rape claims. Since the investigation uncovering Zaka, did you not notice a lack of Israeli spokespeople on the news lately. Watching Eylon Levy on LBC yesterday was a first for a long time. This is how Israel controls the media - put out a big story to make everyone angry and inflamed while we go over here and commit some war crimes while no one is watching. Why won't Israel allow journalists into Gaza? Why can we only see one side of the story? Putin lets journalists into Ukraine - Netanyahu won't allow journalists into Gaza.

 

 

@Brickleberry

You can keep denying rapes. You can keep running interference for Hamas. It's what you do. Zero expectations from 'people' like you.

There were testimonies.

There are a couple of topics dealing with evidence, with links to other sources as well.

There are autopsy reports.

And then there's you. A rape denier, Hamas fanboy who says otherwise.

Scum is generous in your case.

Levy was sort of 'ousted' from his position as the lead representative when Netanyhu's wife discovered he was also an anti-government activist prior to the 7/10 attack.

Your Israel controls the media conspiracy theory is kinda funny considering you keep insisting (without proof) this or that is all over them media, when it suits.

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

I think the problem is often that we, or at least I, have too little information to be sure.

I.e. Palestinians often complain that Israeli soldiers kill many innocent people.

And Israelis claim that Hamas hides behind civilians.

I am pretty sure both statements are correct, and they can be correct at the same time.

Then the question is how often is it more the case that Israeli soldiers just don't care and how often is it more the case that Hamas uses civilians as shields? Who knows? I am sure there are lots of people who have some guesstimate, but how many know the truth?

This has nothing to do with what I posted about.

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He knows they have nowhere to go, but he'll be able to say "I told them to leave but they refused, so it's their own fault they got killed when our brave soldiers had to protect themselves from unarmed people and children".

@thaibeachlovers

On all previous instances in this war, civilians were not simply told to go away, but referred to specific destinations.

As for you making up bogus stuff about what leaders may say - pffft.

15 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

• Why would you expect wasted  breath criticezing Hamas?

 

No rational person denies they are a bunch of criminal terrorists who are allowed under international law to be militarily engaged and eliminated.

 

Every country in history with few exceptions other than Iceland  is the result of wars and conquest. If any nation has a so-called right to exist it would be Israel, (within internationally recognized borders).  Many peoples had "their land" stolen. With few exceptions in the 20th century only a few new countries admitted to the UN as chartered members other than former colonies of Imperialism and breakup of Soviets. What are the others other beside East Timor? Voted for in the affirmative by Iran, Russia, China, etc, yes in a different time.

 

• And thus we hold the State of Israel to a higher standard than a gang of terrorists.

 

This is the fundamental point of my three position valid criticism. The second is the war crimes committed are  "in my name" and this is what I absolutely cannot accept.  In their legitimate self defense  Israel cannot, even against terrorists and pirates and criminals commit war crimes, pursue genocidal policies, or in any other way act outside the limitations of the treaties and charters thhey as a state are subscribed and legally bound to under international law, and international humanitarian law.

 

Any child of five years knows instinctively that two wrongs do not make a right.

Reading these topics, there are certainly some on here which justify Hamas's actions, normalize them, see them as 'freedom fighters'. Looking out into the world outside this forum, quite a lot of that as well. So when you say, 'no rational person' - what does that even mean in this context?

Spin it as you like - Hamas is (was?) the de-facto ruler of the Gaza Strip. When it suits, people treat Hamas rule as 'inevitable', or as being a representation of the people's will. When it doesn't - they are a terrorist group that can't be expected to be accountable for its actions. Wanting to have it both ways is cool.

People go on and on about 'war crimes', somehow imagining that saying 'war crimes' make them a fact. Well, 'war crimes' are something that is decided through a rather lengthy legal process, and them rules allow a whole lot of things in reality. Some of you don't seem to grasp that.

As for two wrongs don't make a right - that's a laugh. A whole lot of the arguments against Israel/pro-Hamas/Palestinians here are that Israel's wrongs made Hamas's attack legit, expected, justified and so on. Again, trying to have it both ways is cool.

Notice, also, that I'm not so much defending Israel's actions, as protesting the lack of balance when treating things.

1 hour ago, DeaconJohn said:

Let's hope so..

But don't count on it happening anytime soon.

It's all about the Shekels, baby.

They were originally Benjamins but got lost in translation.

 

 

More antisemitic conspiracy theories from the usual suspects.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Trying to do so will backfire as it would likely evolve into Iraq version 2 or Afghanistan.

The Americans must be sick to the back teeth of Middle East wars, and paying large for the two they ain't sending boys to ( yet ).

It's not as though the conflict would be confined to Yemen either. What happens if Iran opens a second front against shipping on their coast?

At some point even US warmongers will hit a wall.

 

Also, I can't see Britain or the EU joining in. They have enough problems of their own domestically, and Yemen is far away.

However, I'm 100% certain that Russia and China are gagging for the US to get bogged down in yet another bound to end badly adventure in the Middle East.

@thaibeachlovers

You're all over the place.

Are there any intentions to invade Yemen? I don't think so. Any signs of such upcoming invasion? Nada.

Iran opens a full campaign against shipping lanes on their coast? Are you serious? Like shoot themselves in the foot? How do you suppose they export oil? Import stuff? And why would they be interested in opening themselves to international censure and attack doing so?

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

Not an option.

Israel is the third rail in American politics. Touch it and Die. Biden pays lip service for them to stop and then sends them billions. 

So no outside pressure. 

Israel has a demographics problem with the Orthodox jews  birth rate at 6.5  as opposed  with an overall birth rate of 2,0 , which seems high , but remove the Orthodox component and it's probably in the 1.? rate . so not only ate Orthodox jews driving Israeli politics now, but it is projected that in the next 10 years they will be a large component of the Israeli population. 

A Two State solution is not an option for them. The Israelis know it, Biden knows it, the Palestinians know it. 

So no internal pressure. 

 

The pressure would be to eliminate or degrade the Houthis . unless there is a third option I am not aware of. 

 

 

 

@sirineou

Orthodox Jews in Israel do favor right wing views, but they're not the hardcore element in right-wing politics.

It's a 'wee' bit more complex than that, but not what the topic is about.

Regardless, @thaibeachlovers's 'opinion' that it's a simple matter of USA pressure is obviously incorrect.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

War is never clear or  concise, and generally devolves to a man with a rifle grovelling in the dirt to try and not get blown up, and if future circumstances means the UK can't get spares or replacement planes from the US their carriers become irrelevant.

Making their own planes means that situation can't arise.

When did cost effectiveness mean a <deleted> in the middle of a war?

 

2/ If that is irrelevant why did you reply to any of my posts about making aircraft in the UK?

@thaibeachlovers

So cost effectiveness during a war is not a thing?

You seem to go on and on about it, though - quite central to your arguments regarding:

1. The situation vs. the Houthies.

2. The war in the Gaza Strip.

3. The war in Ukraine.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems the only option the US is not considering is taking the Houthis at their word and making israel stop killing Gazans.

@thaibeachlovers

Seems like the only one taking the Houthis words seriously is you.

31 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I think to understand any situation it makes a lot of sense to try to see that situation from the viewpoint of each side.

What do Palestinians think about Hamas and what they are doing. What do they think about Israel.

And what do Israelis think about their government and Palestinians?

And obviously not all Israelis think the same and not all Palestinians think the same.

I think we should try to look at problems from their point of view.

 

Another example, I know this tread is not about that, is Putin's view about the was in Ukraine. I found it interesting to hear his view. That doesn't mean I agree with what he said, or I believe everything he said, I see it as the viewpoint which he presents. And I think it's interesting to look at things also from that viewpoint.  

There's trying to understand a point of view, and then there's adopting it, or considering it justified, legit.

A whole lot of people on here seem to cross that line. When it suits.

27 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

"when you lose it and drop the act"

Do you really think I pretend sometime that I write both sides do bad things?

Maybe it's only me, I have maybe roughly a view that 70% is the fault of Israelis and 30% of Palestinians. (No, I didn't think long and hard about those percentages, it's an example). And then, sometimes I read something horrible of what Israelis did, and I blame them more, maybe 90/10% or something like that. And another day I think the Palestinians are more responsible for the fighting and the percentages change again.

At least for me I am not consistent - you noticed that already.

And I don't even try to be consistent. Because sometimes one side is more to blame, and sometimes the other side. And often it's not easy to really understand what is going on and who is to blame.

 

I am sure one reason that I see more the bad side of Israel is that Israel is a democratic country which is supposed to play be the good guys rules. Hamas are officially a terrorist group. Nobody expects from a terrorist group to be judged with the same criteria like a nation state.

 

If the Palestinians had a country with an elected government and their own official military and is this would be a war between two countries, then they should be viewed with the same expectations to abide by international rules. 

 

 

I think that your comments on here speak for themself. When push comes to shove, you revert to the Israel Bad mode. The strong language, commentary and so on? That's hardly ever directed at the Palestinians, of even Hamas. The bulk, both in terms of quantity and 'quality' is saved for Israel. Don't think I ever saw you comment about 'the Palestinians are more responsible for the fighting'. As for not being consistent, we'll disagree - as said, I think you're mostly anti-Israel, sometimes much more so. That's all.

And here's the rub. No one expects Hamas to act right. And by extension, not much of that with regard to the Palestinians as well - for any excuse possible. If you think Hamas is a terrorist group, then they ought to be criticized like one - not 'understood', not being labeled as 'freedom fighters', and not normalizing their agenda and actions.

We will have do disagree that having a state, and an army are requisites for expectations regarding behavior of groups. Being the underdog (never mind own actions and choices playing a part in that) is no carte blanche.

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I know lots of people talk about that.

But I don't know how many would be already satisfied with part of that land.

Like: I want it all, but I can live with half of it, because that is better than nothing.

I would be surprised if Hamas is a homogenous group where everybody wants the same.

You somehow seem to imagine that the Palestinians live in a fully democratic society. One which gives much room for personal views etc. This is not the case even under PA rule, never mind Hamas's.

Instead of assuming things, how about getting a clue? Hamas sometimes says stuff that can be interpreted as such, but when broken down (or when looking at the source, the original statement) it often falls short. They sometimes talk about 'ceasefire', 'long term pause in hostilities', or claim that they will abide by the 'people's will'. None of that got any actual expression in their agenda/charter, none of that implies full peace, recognition of Israel, or accepting a permanent compromise. Given how they treated the opposition last time disagreements rose, accepting the 'people's will' (determined how? And by whom?) doesn't mean a whole lot.

What you're on about may apply to the PA and it's supporters. But that's neither what we're talking about, nor does it address the issue of Hamas and its followers.

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"they want all the land for themselves"

Now the question is obviously about all the land. I guess for some people that involves a lot of land. For others maybe only the land where they used to live before Israel took it away or destroyed everything on that land. 

Hamas's agenda is about all the land. What you 'guess' got little to do with it.

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The israelis are Hamas's best recruiting agents ever. Hamas will have more applicants than they need, as will Hezbollah and all the other anti israeli groups.

@thaibeachlovers

Was there a shortage of volunteers before?

Also, given Hamas's losses, it will take some time to fill the ranks anyway.

8 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's a question of the perspective.

Do you think people in Gaza who join Hamas join them because they want to be terrorists? Or is it more likely that they want to join freedom fighters?

My statement is clearly from the point of view of survivors of Israelis killing their friends and family.

If your family would be killed by soldiers from country X, would you fight against them? And if yes, would you call yourself a terrorist or a freedom fighter? 

It's a 'question of perspective' if you adopt the Hamas point of view. That's a choice. As pointed out, not a whole lot of countries/regimes embrace this label - most of those are either dictatorial or repressive in their own right. I think most (or at least a lot of) Western countries designate Hamas as terrorists. In my opinion, this division is significant, you may think differently.

I think a whole lot of those joining want 'revenge'. Do unto them stuff. Freedom? Living under Hamas rule is not freedom, what Hamas offers in case it manages to make its Charter come true is more of the same.

There is a difference between fighting, and what took place on 7/10. That was not about freedom.

8 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

That's obvious. Or not?

Not to many on here it seems. Quite a bunch of posters who embrace a totally one-sided narrative. And then you have those that say both sides, then go on and on about Israel only. Sure, you got the mirror image of that as well, but for the most part it's an Israel Bad thing (on this forum). As for your comments, they usually fall into the both-sides-but-Israel variety, except when you lose it and drop the act - then it's Israel Bad as usual.

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Several other forum members have said this too.

@Brickleberry

I stand corrected, let me amend: It's just you, a few other Hamas fanboys on here, and Hamas.

Just now, Brickleberry said:

 

No, you stated an opinion that Gaza (prior to Oct 7) was not occupied. International law disagrees. Fact.

@Brickleberry

Unhinged.