way2muchcoffee

Those are not the only two possible options.Another option is that the murdered journalists were targeted deliberately by the army just as unarmed civilians were targeted.

Indeed. And another option is that PAD mercenaries shot them. And yet another is that they shot themselves. Or perhaps southern separatists shot them.

Yes there there umpteen possibilities.But most will recognise that your alternatives are comic fantasies.Most will equally know mine needs to at least be considered seriously.

I would place the likelihood of government troops targeting foreign journalists at about the same level as the possibility of PAD mercenaries. I don't think that it does merit serious consideration.

There is no conceivable motive for government troops to target journalists. There are many reasons why this kind of activity by the military would work absolutely and totally against their interests as well as those of the government.

But Chuan has been caught. He was found guilty of concealing assets by the National Counter Corruption Commission.

This may well be true but I do not recall ever reading about this. Do you have a source?

They were shot, by solders, or reds, while being in a crossfire, in a place the should not have been. What more needs to be solved? Grieve for your loss, and hope that in the future, more reporters don't pretend they are bulletproof.

Question is did government soldiers shoot by accident or "red" shirts shoot to create an incident to blame the government?

Those are not the only two possible options.Another option is that the murdered journalists were targeted deliberately by the army just as unarmed civilians were targeted.

Indeed. And another option is that PAD mercenaries shot them. And yet another is that they shot themselves. Or perhaps southern separatists shot them.

Interesting post. I suspect you either haven't been in Thailand long or you haven't traveled extensively here. Polite? Well-dressed?

Fact is that most Thais don't have the money to dress well.

Polite has regional and social variations.

What is polite behavior at a wedding in Issan would be decidedly unpolite at a wedding in the Oriental. Frankly I disagree with most of the content of your post as it points to only a very small subset of the population within very limited social circles.

utter rubbish. all thai's???????? <deleted>

If you had bothered to read even the part you highlighted you would see I said 'most Thais'. And this is a fact. 'Most Thais' are living on an income that does not allow the purchase of a supply of 3000 bt pants, 2000 bt shirts, and 5000 bt shoes. Get over it. There is nothing wrong with pointing out facts. Note also that I carefully avoided making any judgment on the financial situation of the majority of the country.

If the protesters fail to follow orders from security forces they should be arrested. I have no problem with any demonstration by any group in a location that is approved by the government in which no violence or other lawbreaking occurs. I do have a problem with violent demonstrations that affect the civil rights of others. Violators form any group should be arrested.

Why do stinky people not know that it IS a heinous crime to be stinky? And make excuses for it? Id' want to beat you myself if I smelled you, it is NOT acceptable, stay home if you have a problem.

Ay caramba!

Not to mention those pesky wheelchair louts, or blind people lousing up the place with their sticks and dogs - what bastards!

LOL! Trying to compare bad judgement and bad hygiene to a disability?! Wow you stinkers will say anything!

And what about my friend with the inflammatory bowel disease? Sounds like you Bottom Inspectors will shoot first and ask questions later!

Your friend with inflammatory bowel disease show use deoderants and colognes to mask the smell. He should avoid public transportation and confined spaces. He should avoid restaurants. It is unfortunate, but that is what he should do. That is what I would do if I were similarly afflicted.

It is hypocritical that after he has made his riches be comes out and bangs the everyone should respect the law drum. The problem is these politicians are so deep into their mansions and mercedes, they have no other choice but to keep going. WIthout money there is no power, so the never ending quest to make as much money as possible, anyway possible will always overrule any moral conscious in this country.

I don't recall anyone ever accusing Chuan of any corruption. He is considered to be one of the most honest PM's Thailand has ever had. Back up your statement with a fact or two.

While it is true that he is considered to be among the more honest Thai PMs, his government collapsed over corruption charges. It appears that he wasn't personally involved, but there it is. He will be forever tarnished by his associations both with fellow politicians and even within his own family.

You're right mazeltov, but really pissing against the wind with some of the posters on here..

If you have a point they seem to have neither the manners nor sense to recognise it.

Actually good manners would require not labeling people, calling them Nazis, right wingers, hypocrites, and the like, while attempting to make a point. Disagreement can and should be civil.

PAD should not get to rally. Simple as that.

Not during the emergency, and if they must be moved,

let them whine. The law must be upheld and SEEN to be upheld.

While I agree with you regarding tomorrow's PAD rally, if only for the sake of appearance, I also think this would be a double standard given that UDD rallies have occurred in recent weeks without police interference.

are you having fantasies again?

Are you?

thanks for proving once more that you cannot substantiate your fantasies.

Whatever. There was a UDD protest at Lumpini two or three weeks ago. There was another UDD protest at Victory monument a couple of weeks back. Do you read the papers? I will not do the legwork for you. Of course you already know these things (I am certain you stay abreast of all news in Thailand) but you insist on being difficult.

so what is now the contribution to the debate by the both of you?

Zip. Zero. Zilch. Do you feel better now?

and you, what is your contribution?

what is the opinion of our 'libertarian' member in the case of the 16 years old student with his banner 'I saw dead people'?

what would a true libertarian say to an emergency decree that violates civil rights?

Are you able to post without labeling people using ad hominem attacks?

Or perhaps there is some relationship between being a libertarian and the topic of this thread.

are you having fantasies again?

Are you?

Double standards? Hmmm.

For there to be double standards on the part of the government several things must happen at tomorrow's demonstration. The protesters will have to do the following things before the can be dispersed.

1) They must refuse to leave

2) They must dump biohazards at various locations.

3) They must make death threats towards politicians.

4) They must set up barricades of tires and bamboo stakes.

5) They must attack police and security forces with bamboo stakes, rocks, slingshots, fireworks, and molotov cocktails.

6) They must engage in a bombing campaign throughout the city.

7) They must take over a large area of town (two areas really).

8) They must assassinate military personnel.

9) They must kidnap an executive of a private company.

10) They must invade hospitals (three of them)

11) They must shut down public transportation including the BTS and MRT.

12) They must conduct illegal search and seizures on private citizens.

13) They must throw grenades at the BTS.

14) They must use snipers and war weapons against security forces.

They must be allowed to do all this for a period of 2 months. Then, and only then, should the government move in to contain the protesters and do what is necessary to disperse them and arrest the leaders.

If the government moves in to disperse tomorrow's protest before any of the above has occurred then they will be guilty of having double standards. If, instead, they allow the protest to go on tomorrow unimpeded then there are no double standards whatsoever.

ahh, the yellow apologist and defender boy. what you talk is BS.

Just demand elections or only holding up a banner "I saw dead people at Ratchaprasong" will be enough to get arrested if you are not related to the yellow shirt color.

anyway, there are more than a few points if not all on your blame list that did team yellow as well. but who expect a fair and balanced view from a hypocrite right winger.

Then perhaps you can explain why the UDD was allowed to rally in BKK each of the last 4 weeks without interference from security forces.

Double standards? Hmmm.

For there to be double standards on the part of the government several things must happen at tomorrow's demonstration. The protesters will have to do the following things before the can be dispersed.

1) They must refuse to leave

2) They must dump biohazards at various locations.

3) They must make death threats towards politicians.

4) They must set up barricades of tires and bamboo stakes.

5) They must attack police and security forces with bamboo stakes, rocks, slingshots, fireworks, and molotov cocktails.

6) They must engage in a bombing campaign throughout the city.

7) They must take over a large area of town (two areas really).

8) They must assassinate military personnel.

9) They must kidnap an executive of a private company.

10) They must invade hospitals (three of them)

11) They must shut down public transportation including the BTS and MRT.

12) They must conduct illegal search and seizures on private citizens.

13) They must throw grenades at the BTS.

14) They must use snipers and war weapons against security forces.

They must be allowed to do all this for a period of 2 months. Then, and only then, should the government move in to contain the protesters and do what is necessary to disperse them and arrest the leaders.

If the government moves in to disperse tomorrow's protest before any of the above has occurred then they will be guilty of having double standards. If, instead, they allow the protest to go on tomorrow unimpeded then there are no double standards whatsoever.

Agree with a slight modification.

Change "awkward fact is that many unarmed civilians were shot dead by the army" into "awkward fact that many unarmed civilians seem to have been shot by the army". It fits better with the unarmed part.

As you say yourself there is no explanation available. All of us (I think) wait anxiously for a report on the April - May unrest. This includes the M79 grenade attacks and the four or five killed then.

I think you have commented very fairly and we should await the report.Nevertheless my concern is that the Thai army has never permitted a rigorous inquiry into its alleged wrongdoings, and it is hard to see why it should be different this time.Having said that my impression is that the Thai army acted reasonably professionally in the clearing of the Reds, but some understanding is still needed of why so many unarmed civilians were killed.

Of course there will always be those like TAWP who prefer an ostrich like denial of unpalatable facts.It was ever thus.

There is a difference between the government and the military. There is also a difference between military command and the soldiers on the ground. I have to wonder how much information is really available. Do the military commanders even know about the actions of their own men? It seems likely that any soldiers who violated the rules of engagement in the field would not be too forthcoming to their commanders.

I suspect that the government really doesn't know the answers to the important questions. Soldiers withholding the truth from squad leaders, squad leaders from the field commanders, and field commanders from CRES. And then there is the police, who nobody trusts. There probably isn't enough conclusive information obtained from the interrogations of detained redshirts/blackshirts. Accusations and innuendo abound without proof.

And in any case I would robustly maintain there is a lot of harmless pleasure in mocking the army of retired sexpats.

Please realize that when you do so you lower your own status to something only slightly above that of a trailer trash schoolyard bully.

Jayboy, you have interesting ideas and post reasonable arguments. Whether I agree with you are not I am always interested in your comments. You unfortunately have a nasty habit of heaping crude abuse on others.

$1500 for an office chair? Why?

Yes. Let's take over a large area in the city center, prevent freedom of movement, assault people trying go to work or home, and perform illegal search and seizures under force of arms. Let's burn Bangkok, don't worry if some of those buildings are occupied. Let's assassinate (or attempt to assassinate) the PM, other politicians, and military commanders. Let's kidnap executives to show our determination. Let's storm a hospital, or two, or three, never mind the health care workers and those people who are convalescing. Let's attack soldiers and police with weapons, both modern and primitive. Let's use grenades to attack various targets in a sustained campaign lasting for months on end. Let's hold a neighborhood hostage under thread of immolation by a fuel tanker. Let's wreak havoc on public transportation. Let's bomb innocent civilians.

Do it for your freedom. Do it now!

self deleted - off topic

What a prolific poster you are Octavian. 30 Posts of pure propaganda. 1 day on the forum. Not a single item of personal information on your profile. Seems very odd to me. I wonder which banned poster you are.

Not again. God help us all ...

Good lord JT, you're hardly one to talk. You had your run with this topic. Now it's somebody else's turn.

Are you suggesting I am a hypocrite? Fair enough, no shame in being in the same boat as Mother Theresa.

Nah. JT. Didn't intend any offense. Just remembering one of your threads on this one or two years back.

what a much better than average leader the PM is

we r so blessed to have him

I say get the murders of the 90 innocent people found and tried so that my family stop asking me why our government are hiding the truth.

Are you for real ? It was only because of the remarkable tolerance of the government that many more of these armed and violent hired thugs were not sent to a better place !

So are you saying the 90 victims were armed and violent hired thugs?

Do you have pictures to support your claim?

I have pictures of some of the dead, you want some?

Plenty of video out there of thugs armed with rifles, molotov cocktails, high-power fireworks and bombs, sharpened bamboo spears, metal pipes, grenade launchers, and various other weapons attacking both security forces and civilians.

Way to go. Congratulations kids. Picking up medals in Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and now Mathematics at International competitions over the past weeks is rather impressive.

Not again. God help us all ...

Good lord JT, you're hardly one to talk. You had your run with this topic. Now it's somebody else's turn.