way2muchcoffee

Absolutely there must be NO AMNESTY.

None at all.

Its already been clearly said that as part of the deal proposed to amnesty some reds that ALL CRES, Army, officials will be given amnesty (as well as by precedent all Yellow and Multi-Colour Shirts).

This is purely a ploy by those in power to whitewash everything.

There must be no amnesty for anybody, not for reds and not for any soldier, any official, any politician, anyone at all.

Everyone must be tried and face courts (be it now or in 10 years time) for everything they have done.

Where has this been said?

From what I remember of your posts you are pro-Yellow and very anti-Red.

Its funny how many Yellow supporters all claim to "......have had some sympathies with reds but not anymore......."

Actually, I was called a redshirt on Thai Visa for months. I'm sure that plenty of posters will confirm this. However, when I saw that they had no interest in a peaceful solution - even before the fires and riots -  I realized that the leaders were only out for themselves. Actions speak louder than words.   

UG's posts in the past leaned most decidedly toward the redshirt agenda. I can absolutely confirm this.

a true warning tale

2007 I was in CM at Kad suan keo big self service restaurant downstairs with my 4 Y O krung krung son ; left him at the table just the time to gather forks etc, with an eye behind my shoulder all the time ;( his mom had warned me ' CM , plenty of pedophiles around ' , I thought, I know Thailand , there aren't that many , just Thaï gossip ; It was my first time in LOS with my son ); then I asked for something like toothpick or whatever and I was directed just round a corner , with kid out of sight; I thought, I just walk and back, 30 seconds . Well in thirty seconds flat when I came back there was this 70 y o linguist of a farang trying to engage a conversation with my son , he saw me and asked " can he talk Thaï ?"

I was not polite in my reply and he moved back to his table with another weirdo.

I know I did a mistake by not watching him all the time . But think, 30 seconds and they crawl from under the rocks.

What makes you think the farang was in any way guilty? He committed the crime of talking to a child. Wow. Now you have labeled him a criminal pedophile. This Western frenzy that demonizes all men causes major problems. Innocent men are constantly being accused. A man can't exhibit any friendliness toward a child whatsoever these days. This sad state of affairs is completely unnatural.

It is not wrong in any way to interact with a child that is not yours.

This is not to say that pedophilia does not exist, nor that one should not be vigilant in caring for their children. But this instant rush to judgment is decidedly wrongheaded. Regarding the case of this thread I will not rush to judgment until the facts come out, if they ever do.

Freedom of speech on ALL subjects, no UNI degree, to become a member of parliment, introduce that, along with a far higher standard of education, and U are on your way to a better style of Democrocy, thats what you are looking for isn't it. That should occupy everyone for the next hundered years, cause on the Thai scale , thats about the speed of reform. Oh heck I forgot, up the wages 100% for anyone 60kms radius out from BKK. Dreaming again???

You don't need a university degree to be a member of parliament. You do, however, need one to be in the cabinet.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That unfortunately isn't true. Under Thai law, as I understand it, the persson arrested is a suspect helping the police with their enquiries and is deemed to be neither innocent or guilty. Also under this essentially Napoleonic legal code the arrest is not made until much further down the road than is the case in most Western countries. That is why the police usually have strong evidence upon arrest.

As for 'crazydrummerpauly's comments: unless it can be proved that the relationship does not involve money changing hands - and few courts will believe that in the case of a foreigner- then prostitution is assumed and then the legal age is 20, not 18. So your friends conviction, imprisonment and deportation were absolutely correct under Thai law.

Very dubious comment. How is such a thing to be pvoven?

I watched an interview with the independent American war journalist on Thai PBS the other day. He'd been in Afghanistan and Iran and said he thought the Thai army had been very disciplined in their actions.

No government is going to say congratulations in a situation like this but I don't think western countries will condemn Apisit, knowing the lengths Thaksin will go to to regain power.

Well, i watched the session of the European parliament where many speakers did exactly that: condemn the actions of the Abhisit regime.

ignoring reality don't make an unfounded fantasy true.

part2:

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Yes. I watched it too. Talk is cheap. There is no doubt that they would quickly change their position if a similar hostile takeover of the central business district by armed insurgents occurred in their home countries. You know this, but instead prefer to cast your armchair aspersions while sitting in your air conditioned office in Singapore.

cheap are arguments based on unfounded fantasies.

Indeed. Cheap argument and unfounded fantasy is something you excel at. A bit of an expert really.

I watched an interview with the independent American war journalist on Thai PBS the other day. He'd been in Afghanistan and Iran and said he thought the Thai army had been very disciplined in their actions.

No government is going to say congratulations in a situation like this but I don't think western countries will condemn Apisit, knowing the lengths Thaksin will go to to regain power.

Well, i watched the session of the European parliament where many speakers did exactly that: condemn the actions of the Abhisit regime.

ignoring reality don't make an unfounded fantasy true.

part2:

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Yes. I watched it too. Talk is cheap. There is no doubt that they would quickly change their position if a similar hostile takeover of the central business district by armed insurgents occurred in their home countries. You know this, but instead prefer to cast your armchair aspersions while sitting in your air conditioned office in Singapore.

:facedesk:

again, that all over the world the governments would had acted same as the Abhisit regime is an unfounded fantasy, plus it don't become true if it gets repeated all the time.

a reality check is to listen to the European parliament

Now you are just being silly. No government would allow a 2-month take over of the central business district of their nation's capitol. Especially not when the protesters were armed with grenades, bombs, molotov cocktails, military rifles, and handguns. And if the protesters turned their weapons on security forces, killing 11 of them and injuring some 500, the response would not be pretty.

yeah I can only imagine if some protesters tried to shut down Times Square in NYC for 2 months. Wouldn't last 2 hours. I would bet 99% of the US population would be behind the police/national guard if they went in to break it up.

But is was Ok for the yellow shirts to occupy governemnt house for 8 months?

Did I say that? Is it impossible for you to differentiate the behaviors of one group from another? There are probably protests in Zimbabwe we could discuss, but they, like any previous protests by any other group have no bearing on the behaviors of the UDD/DAAD. The UDD/DAAD leaders made choices as adults. They should accept the consequences of those choices as adults. Armed insurrection will be dealt with harshly anywhere in the world.

:facedesk:

again, that all over the world the governments would had acted same as the Abhisit regime is an unfounded fantasy, plus it don't become true if it gets repeated all the time.

a reality check is to listen to the European parliament

Now you are just being silly. No government would allow a 2-month take over of the central business district of their nation's capitol. Especially not when the protesters were armed with grenades, bombs, molotov cocktails, military rifles, and handguns. And if the protesters turned their weapons on security forces, killing 11 of them and injuring some 500, the response would not be pretty.

It wouldn't surprise me if the OAG don't delay the decision again until after the govt decides whether it's going to give amnesty to selected red shirt offenses/people. Then after the govt amnesty decision, the OAG would then say they need more time to study the amnesty impact on the yellow shirt case.

Sounds about right.

The last figures I took down from the BP are as follows:

Security Forces Injured: 411

Protesters/Civilians Injured: 991

Total Injured: 1402

Security Forces Killed: 11

Protesters/Civilians Killed: 74

Total Killed: 85

Security Forces Casualties: 422

Protester/Civilian Casualties: 1065

Total Causualties: 1487

These numbers were later revised upwards but I don't have the exact figures.

Nearly 1/3 of the injured were security forces, while between 10 and 15% of those killed were from the security forces.

Alternately, a little over 2/3 of the injured were demonstrators, while between 85 and 90% of those killed were from the demonstrators.

(It should also be noted that the demonstrator numbers include civilians who were neither demonstrators nor security forces.)

Other Interesting Tidbits

Burned Buildings

Siam Theater

Municipal Electricity Khlong Toei

Centara Hotel

Grand Diamond Hotel

SET

SEER Rangsit

7-11 Din Daeng

Central Chid Lom

Central World and Zen

Paragon

BTS Chid Lom

MRT Khlong Toei

MRT Queen Sirikit

Center One Department Store

MK Restaurant Siam

Ministry of Narcotics

Channel 3 Thailand

Din Daeng Flats

TESCO Rama IV

Mahachon Building

Big C Rajdamri

Many Bank Branches in BKK

Burned Government Buildings

City Hall Ubon Ratchathani

City Hall Udon Thani

City Hall Mukdahan

City Hall Khon Kaen

City Hall Nonthaburi

City Hall Nakhon Ratchasima

Bombing

TESCO On Nut

BKK Bank Phrahkhanong

Additionally there were nearly 100 other bombs at various locations

Looting

Looting reported at many 7-11 Stores

Looting at Central World

Looting at Siam Square

Note: These were taken from from reports at TNN, BP, Nation, TAN, etc. There was some erroneous reporting during the hysteria that followed the surrender of redshirt leaders, so the lists above may have a few errors.

There is no national curriculum from what I can gather. Worse, the teachers get to write their own course work.

My wife asked me to help her little sister with some home work. When I saw what her teacher had given her, I couldn't believe it.

This is a mid to high priced School in Bangkok. The English exercises made no sense at all.

When I laughed I seemed to offend.

The usual social rules. "Don't complain, its not polite"

The government could easily adopt a national curriculum from an English speaking country. Its not the teachers fault, in my opinion its the governing body.

That's not correct. There is in fact a national curriculum. A major revision is being promulgated this term. It is fairly clear for Mathematics and Sciences, but the English Language curriculum is laughable. I believe they modeled the national curriculum from the one used in Singapore. I haven't studied the new curriculum in depth enough to comment at length, but it appears to be very similar to the one used previously, only fleshed out a bit more in the detail.

While the teachers may not be of the highest quality, one should also consider the quality of the tests. I've seen Thai language tests in mathematics and physics. These tests are very difficult, and I went to a top 20 grad school for physics. The level of difficulty of the questions is roughly equivalent to 2nd or 3rd year university, some even higher.

My strong suspicion is that the tests themselves are the largest part of problem. These tests are written by individuals holding PhDs, most of whom obtained their post-baccalaureate credentials abroad. They are out of touch with what a high school level course should consist of. The most able Thai teachers tend to set excruciatingly difficult tests for their students, expecting an average of about 30% and then curving the results.

I think the old Thailand does not have the international capacity for bandwidth is no longer applicable.

The reason is your ISP has not purchased sufficient international bandwidth or the package you have selected with your ISP or your line quality or your router/computer setup.

Lets take the 16mb True Premium which I now use. Results as of time of posting (You cannot exactly say Thailand has a problem with international bandwidth anymore I get these speeds 24/7):

So basically I am on the fastest 16mb product available for the Thailand consumer and that is more or less exactly what I get worldwide.

Lack of international bandwidth do not think so, Poor choice of package and ISP perhaps.

I think a lot of complaints of slow speed is due to line quality. For example the old'ish condo where we stay on the 33rd floor has terrible internal wiring (The True line to the building is new and of excellent quality and not far from the dslam)

now initially the wire pair they used to connect from the building exchange to my condo was giving a very low SNR and getting speeds of between 5mb-9mb on the 16mb True Premium package. (Talking router sync rates here not speedtest.net results).

After some persuasion i got the building to put me on a different wire pair to their exchange. Went from the above sync rate to (Sync rate of 18mb and max capable of 22mb)

One example from one ISP does not set the standard for package quality, consistency and reliability nationwide. I'd say you got it all wrong. Most packages and ISPs here are still terrible and volatile (ranging from .5Mbit to 8Mbit download speeds depending on time of day on a similar package to yours. Additionally, many users still suffer from unstable and highly fluctuating latency to areas outside of Thailand, especially the US. Congratulations on striking lucky with True, though, you're part of the small minority.

I ditched True after using their service for half a decade after I couldn't take their lackluster and unreliable service anymore. The worst part about them is the customer service. They simply don't care nor do they know how to fix any of the problems the users have. I feel like a fool for having subscribed to them for as long as it's easily the worst ISP I have ever subscribed to, by miles. I'm now on 3BB and pretty much sit in the same boat as you. Reliable connection, great latency, no disconnects. All going through the same phone line.

If there's one thing I'd tell to people who are looking for ISPs it's that you should never expect the service that you pay for, but rather, feel grateful when you get it.

I've used True in BKK for 6 years and three different apartments/townhouses. I've always had higher bandwidth than my package specifies. It doesn't fluctuate and I consistently get high speeds.

Have you noticed.

If you set off a motorbike bomb in the south of Thailand you are a "naughty boy".

If you set off a car bomb in the south of Thailand you are a "naughty boy"

If you use a big knife and cut someone's head off in the south you are a "naughty boy".

If you use a gun and shoot someone in the south you are a "naughty boy"

As the South is Yellow heartland Democrat country it seems everyone is just naughty and there are no terrorists.

And yet it if wear a red shirt in the North and North East you are a terrorist or a terrorist supporter.

The double standards of Abhisit and this government and the people that back them is quite disgusting.

Nope. Never noticed that. Not once in the last several years have I seen any Thai government characterize the southern insurgents as 'naughty boys'. Perhaps you could provide one link that comes even close to suggesting this. If you cannot provide such a link then it can be considered that your post is malicious propaganda.

You mean the men in camouflage?

well they kicked Thaksin out and support Abhisit. And because of the history and well known reputation of the military Abhisit invited them into Bangkok to hunt down and kill opposition protesters.

some people seems not to learn from the past.

It would be equally ridiculous and extremist for me to state that unarmed soldiers were massacred on April 10th. They were brought in to protect millions of innocent civilians in Bangkok from 10,000 violent and murderous terrorists bent on destruction who had taken control of the city.

Repeating a lie does not make it true. Similarly, couching an argument in highly emotive terms and using extreme adjectives makes the argument invalid. At a minimum seriously weakens the credibility of both the post and the person who wrote it.

"especially from young Thai people who don't read anything longer than 40 words at a time."

This says a lot for the so-called education that the elite offer to the young of Thailand.

I have worked in the system for over 17 years now and it is dreadful.

Example: One of my ex-students has just begun studying dentistry at a small college.

One of her tutors demands food and gifts from the students or he refuses to teach.

How are the young of this country going to get an education in a system that allows this type of behaviour from the teaching staff?

I've worked in the educations system here for nearly a decade. There is a huge myth that the education system here is deplorable. This is wrong. What is substandard is the students, their work ethic, the parenting, and the culture of corruption.

A young person can get a decent education here. They simply need to study, do their homework, don't copy the work of others, avoid cheating on tests, read the books, and take their education seriously. It is rare to come across a student who does this, maybe 1 in 20. The parents mostly don't guide their kids into an appreciation of hard work, discipline, and motivation.

I generally agree with everything you say, but this comment is a bit too extreme. A student as you describe doesn't need a teacher at all. He might need a tutor in a few difficult places, but that is completely different from an educational system. I would say you are correct that only 1 in 20 can do this in Thailand, because these students are basically teaching themselves.

In a real education system, the lies, cheating and laziness endemic to the education system in Thailand would simply not be tolerated. The students would fail, and all the screaming and threats by the parents would be ignored. True, it is always easier to teach when you have the support of the parents, but even without it the school system could do something to improve.

The Thai education system in most schools is fundamentally broken. Teachers can not fail students, and students are not adequately punished for their transgressions. More importantly, parents support their children rather than the school who is trying to help them. It is a vicious cycle.

The Thai educators need to take a stand and say "no more". If you cheat, if you lie, if you don't do the work, you will fail. The school administrators need to back the teachers over the influential parents. The parents will eventually come around when they realize the rules have changed. That is the only way anything will ever improve.

Very good points.

"especially from young Thai people who don't read anything longer than 40 words at a time."

This says a lot for the so-called education that the elite offer to the young of Thailand.

I have worked in the system for over 17 years now and it is dreadful.

Example: One of my ex-students has just begun studying dentistry at a small college.

One of her tutors demands food and gifts from the students or he refuses to teach.

How are the young of this country going to get an education in a system that allows this type of behaviour from the teaching staff?

I've worked in the educations system here for nearly a decade. There is a huge myth that the education system here is deplorable. This is wrong. What is substandard is the students, their work ethic, the parenting, and the culture of corruption.

A young person can get a decent education here. They simply need to study, do their homework, don't copy the work of others, avoid cheating on tests, read the books, and take their education seriously. It is rare to come across a student who does this, maybe 1 in 20. The parents don't guide their kids into an appreciation of hard work, discipline, and motivation.

That isn't what this thread is about though so I will leave it there.

On the clothes they are wearing, but most importantly that on the 19th I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

Fair enough response. We have, however, seen video of opposition teams with some members wearing camo. Personally I can't make out what they are wearing. It could be army green, but the video isn't clear enough to tell. As far as getting up on the tracks, I don't think that would be difficult at all. I'm not certain if army was holding both Chid Lom and Siam. Perhaps they were, but I am unaware of the full facts of army operations and positions. There is one further complication in that we don't know when this video was taken. Consequently, I won't rush to judgment on who these guys were and when the video was taken. It could very well be army personnel and it is equally possible that they were not.

The shooters on the skytrain were filmed in this video:

....

Insight, congratulations, you've just earned the "Red Propagandist" label here on thaivisa, some mysterious label they give you whenever you present fair and balanced opinions or evidence that casts a sliver of doubt on the government or Yellows, or more appropriately doesn't vehemently tow their cause.

At the :43 to :45 second time frame the soldier(s) appear to be wearing helmets and full fatigues in line with Army soldiers. We know that by this time the Army had already kicked out and crushed the last resistence of the Red Shirt rogue fighters -- hours before in fact, so it would make sense that there were not rogue Red fighters still wandering around on the skytrain tracks. We can also observe their body language and what we see are two men "on duty station", not hyped-up combatants who, if they really were Red Shirts, wouldn't have been "chilling out" on the tracks the way these guys were, aiming down and occasionally picking people off. They would have been in full combat mode, scrambling about under high tension, with enemy soldiers nearby. These guys however don't appear particularly stressed out.

Are the Yellow and Gov't defenders going to disappear from this thread?

Those men in the Skytrain tracks are most probably army soldiers and as far as I can see there's no actual shooting of weapons in the video. However that doesn't exculpate the red shirts from anything they did.

On what do you base this conclusion?

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno. Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

Are you sure? In truth you are quite denigrating and insulting. It is in fact this particular attitude amongst Thais that lower paid individuals are somehow inferior that is the root of the divisions in this society. You evidently play your own part in perpetuating that myth.

Nope. Using minimal force to suppress a violent and murderous rebellion was the way to go. Now it's time to investigate and punish redshirt leaders, redshirt terrorists, and military personnel who violated the rules of engagement, while offering monetary support to those families and businesses who suffered during the demonstrations. Then it will be time to enact political demonstration laws, followed by policies that held reduce inequities in society. After that it will be time to make moves toward reforming the Royal Thai Police. Simultaneously committees need to be set up to amend the constitution in ways that make the next election more legitimate in the eyes of the majority of the people. Then, when all this has been completed, and if there has been no further violence, elections should be held.

I'm sure most of the Reds will agree what must be done as you stated above.

However, none is going to happen as the elites do live on unequal society.

Also, if you asking Reds to abandon Thaksin, you have to show them a brighter future - no double stadards, no insulting ridiculously privileges etc.

Finally I dont think any elections will never ever going to solve current crisis. But it still a positive move though.

.

I agree with your points in principle. However, I think what you fail to realize is that the politicians in the PTP/PPP/TRT and the redshirt leaders are just as elite those in the Democrat party and the PAD leaders. The Democrat rank and file supporters are in rural areas are just as poor as the redshirt supporters in the rural areas.

Murder in the name of reconciliation

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on June 3, 2010

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...n-30130765.html

How do you reconcile with a group that denies ANY wrong doing?

So murder is the way to go?

Nope. Using minimal force to suppress a violent and murderous rebellion was the way to go. Now it's time to investigate and punish redshirt leaders, redshirt terrorists, and military personnel who violated the rules of engagement, while offering monetary support to those families and businesses who suffered during the demonstrations. Then it will be time to enact political demonstration laws, followed by policies that held reduce inequities in society. After that it will be time to make moves toward reforming the Royal Thai Police. Simultaneously committees need to be set up to amend the constitution in ways that make the next election more legitimate in the eyes of the majority of the people. Then, when all this has been completed, and if there has been no further violence, elections should be held.

since when have polls on here mattered, I have said many times the only figures that will matter from a poll is the next election, people that actually have a vote rather than some people on here with complexes and the desire to repeat the same garbage over and over in the hope that it will eventually brainwash others like it has brainwashed them. The people that matter will vote, they will vote the sam way.

Actually just a question, hopefully someone can answer it for me, at the last election what percentage of the vote did the democrats get?

I am asking because some on here always state that the people want them in power, I always say if people wanted them in power they would have voted for them, I am interested in knowing what percentage of the vote the actually got, this will also show what percentage of voters didn't want them in power.

Since you are asking what percentage of the voters supported the Dems in 2007 it is simple:

Dem: 39.63%

PPP: 39.60%

That was before the BJT abandoned the PPP/PTP. Now we'd be looking at something like 40% for the Dems and 30% for PTP.