way2muchcoffee

It is there battle to fight. The fact is your not a citizen here (sorry for assuming).

Another fact is many of us who read this forum have friends and relatives that are RedShirt/citizens and I doubt anyone appreciates a call for violence to be used against them.

I will not say there are no bad RedShirts in the bunch, but to paint them all with a broad brush is wrong. Most are peaceful and want this to end as much as you do. There is plenty of time for partys to come to a peaceful resolution. Give peace a chance, if not we will all be sorry at the shameful things that will be done by all sides.

This is the problem. Anti-red shirts do not appreciate the increasingly violent acts the red shirts are engaging in. They do not appreciate the extremely violent rhetoric of the speakers on the red shirt stage. They do not appreciate having their city taken hostage. The red shirt leaders have been calling themselves a peaceful demonstration, but then in the next sentence they call for blood, make death threats, and incite violence. The situation is unacceptable.

And at the same time I still believe that the government should not crackdown and forcefully disperse the protesters. I realize that any other government in the world would do exactly that, but every other government is not Thailand. I believe that cracking down would led directly to heightened terrorist activities, or quite possibly to a kind of civil war.

I don't believe the government should step down. That would create a small victory for the red shirts, but would set off a train of events where the yellow shirts and other groups will treat any red shirt government in exactly the same way. Any way you look at it these demonstrations are illegal. They are pointing the gun at government and the citizens of Bangkok and saying 'quit or else'. These kind of threats and actions are totally unacceptable, whether they are committed by yellow, red, or any other group. No government should bow to this kind of pressure.

So what is a peaceful resolution here? The red shirt leaders will not negotiate. They have only given ultimatums and then refused to talk. They refuse to engage in negotiations with the government. They refuse to enter negotiations with government and representatives from other interest groups including the coalition partners and academics. The red shirts are completely inflexible.

But in the end, de-escalation and fair negotiation with all concerned parties represented is the only way this thing can end peacefully and leave the country somewhat intact.

Re the grenade attack I have an open mind as to who fired it and from where. The Government say they have proof the Red shirts fired it from Lumpini park captured on BTS cctv. That being the case don't they have an obligation to release said video.

If the government wishes to make any form of "stickable" case against the perpetrators, and they genuinely have such video evidence, then releasing it to the media would not only be subjudicy (sp? - it's not in my spell checker) but also could have it dismissed from court by the defence as having prejudiced public and judiciary opinion via the mass media. Irrefutable evidence is best saved for initial presentation within the courtroom.

Update:

AFP: Myanmar opposition leader Suu Kyi says Thailand's political crisis shows that constitution drawn up by military can never deliver stability

She may be on to something. So fix the constitution. Write it with input from citizens, business leaders, social activists, NGOs, military, police, judges, lawyers, politicians, civil servants, academics, all political parties etc. After all parties agree, hold a referendum to let all the people decide. Then dissolve parliament and hold elections.

They did - in 1997 under a Democrat government.

Yes the did. Obviously the 1997 constitution was seriously flawed. It was an experiment that failed, as was the next one written under the coup government. Therefore a new one needs to be implemented that corrects the problems of each, and it needs to be done before any election can take place.

1) As long as this demonstration continues and the focus remains on Rajprasong, there is less liklihood that 50 similar demonstrations don't pop up elsewhere. 2) I believe the government probably has intelligence gatherers in tis organization, probably has communications lines open, and probably is negotiating a more realistic schedule for dissolution, despite press reports3) And lastly, I don't think they could break it up if they wanted to and even if they could there would be a lot of casualties, collateral damage, unintended consequences and they'd probaly have to turn the govt. over to the military soon after (or just before). Waiting doesn't seem so bad in light of all that.

I agree. Now that the reds are all fired up and ready to fight the best move is for the government to step back. Let the protesters bake in the sun for a few more days as they calm down. Keep trying the back channels. Nobody wants to see a civil war. Nobody wants to see more terrorism. The red leaders are putting themselves into a very dark hole with their words this evening. Best not provoke them too much for the time being.

i read your posts. i'll give you _exactly_ _one_ day of my attention, ok?

a) what does it matter if people of isaan never voted for this guy? you wanna tell me that "people of isaan" are now in charge of well-being of a whole country? btw, it's just today nattawhut _out-ruled_ that democrats would be allowed to do pr for a "general election"

-> so, in essence, you're saying: YOU talk for the "people of isaan" & everyone who disagrees with your self-grandeur has to be... "removed"?

btw, who's "elite" in your terms _today_? as latest posts show, even "middle class" is now perceived to be oppressing elite? that has to be re-educated... etc etc. oh really?

c) oooh, you indulge violence as eta or ira? why not state publicly, we're freedom-fighters/terrorists. we want to overthrow this society by violent means. we just hate you. & we enjoy harming others.

*

btw, i'd appreciate if you'd be able to train yourself to quote. thanks. it's kind of a convenience for follow-up. no, i'm not hinting at state of your rational faculties - your comments speak for themselves.

i'll give you 10 minutes of my attention, ok?

a) its called the right to vote and the population of Isaan at last count was 21086501 or 35% of Thailand's total population – go figure

and no I don’t talk for the "people of isaan" but 21 million have the right to be heard.

The top 20% own 69% of the country's assets while the bottom 20% own only 1%.

-42% of bank savings money comes from only 70,000 bank accounts holding more than 10 million baht. They make up only 0.09% of all bank accounts in the country. In other words, less than 1% of the people own nearly half of the country's savings.

c) not my decision

Only 39 million people who voted in the last election.

14 million voted PPP

14 million voted Democrat

7.5 million voted for other parties (now in a coalition with the democrats)

2.5 million invalid votes

1 million no votes

Yes. The people of Isaan have a right to be heard, but they do not have a right to do what they have been doing these last 3 weeks. They do not have a right to demand dissolution. Some 60% of the voters did not vote for the PPP.

Update:

AFP: Myanmar opposition leader Suu Kyi says Thailand's political crisis shows that constitution drawn up by military can never deliver stability

She may be on to something. So fix the constitution. Write it with input from citizens, business leaders, social activists, NGOs, military, police, judges, lawyers, politicians, civil servants, academics, all political parties etc. After all parties agree, hold a referendum to let all the people decide. Then dissolve parliament and hold elections.

It's looking like Kent State all over again.......1970 riot over a US planned Cambodia invasion when upset students looted, threw rocks and bottles, and otherwise taunted the police and military for a few days.

Result - 4 dead and one paralyzed for life as national guard fired rounds over a few seconds. The riot ended, but marred the country for quite some time.

If this event can be etched in the memory of nearly all Americans after 40 years, imagine what the latest incidents (and incidents yet to come) will do to the small country of Thailand.

Major difference. The Kent State rioters didn't use AK47s, M79 grenade launchers, or sniper rifles. They also didn't threaten guerrilla warfare or civil war.

I imagine that based on what has already happened, together with what will happen, these events will stick in the minds of Thais far more strongly that Kent State has for Americans.

So they are dropping the red shirts. We all know why, yes? So when the reds without red attack the Thai soldiers and the general public with lethal weapons, and they are filmed doing so, they can more conveniently deny responsibility.

Blend in and not stand out...........a good strategy adapted all over the world by nature....known as camouflage Jing, to confuse the oppostion......not necessarily to attack them.........

Evidently you didn't read the article completely. Jatuporn is making his intention to attack the opposition quite clear.

From Jatuporn:

"When the first blood is spilled here, the entire country will be the scene of bloodshed"

So they are dropping the red shirts. We all know why, yes? So when the reds without red attack the Thai soldiers and the general public with lethal weapons, and they are filmed doing so, they can more conveniently deny responsibility.

Precisely. This is a very disturbing development.

Guerrilla warfare? Threatening to loot CentralWorld?

"When the first blood is spilled here, the entire country will be the scene of bloodshed"

"We are ready to handle the government measures. No matter what shirt we wear, our hearts are red"

These are terrorist threats being made by the red shirt leaders. Some people might object to the word terrorist, but I don't know what else to call it. Insurrection perhaps? Any other suggestions?

That is ludicrous. What 'kill em all' brigade? There are people who would like to see the illegal protesters dispersed using the least possible force and avoiding unnecessary violence at all costs. These demonstrations are causing hardship to a great many people so it is natural that many would want the protests to end. But what is this 'kill em all' brigade you are referring to?

I am referring to some of the hardline anti-reds, who have been advocating a firm (=violent) military response to "resolve" things, and apparently will not be satisfied with anything less than blood.

I honestly haven't seen much of that here.

Interestingly enough, after Anupong stopped with his sabre rattling, both sides are returning to the negotiating table.

It was only the red side that left the negotiating table and at this stage they still haven't returned - they've simply made a different demand.

Well its a step in the right direction. Anupong made the right move - he backed off and gave enough room for talks to start again.

Not everyone will agree with Anupongs decision, particularly the blood hungry, 'kill em all' brigade.

That is ludicrous. What 'kill em all' brigade? There are people who would like to see the illegal protesters dispersed using the least possible force and avoiding unnecessary violence at all costs. These demonstrations are causing immense hardship to a great many people, so it is natural that many would want the protests to end. But what is this 'kill em all' brigade you are referring to?

Certainly they want the pick-up and the big screen TV. Who doesn't want these things?

Lots of people DON'T. I quess that is going to come as a shock to you.

Not surprised at all. The sufficiency attitude is quite common amongst the rural elders.

In general it is the younger ones who seem more interested in getting all the flashy new toys that the modern technological world has to offer.

interesting to see a racial interpretation - according this the Chinese run UK and the States........and you think that education is the key to "Chinese" success.....on the other hand if we look a some of the most grovelingly poor in Asia....and oh my God it's "those dam_n Chinese" again.... how can that be so?

If you are going to put forward a theory, try and make it a little erudite at least!

China is a communist nation. There is nothing more to be said regarding the extreme poverty there.

The Chinese people as a whole are known to be extremely industrious, with a strong penchant for saving everything possible. The Chinese as a people are also known to think in terms of generations. They believe that obtaining education for their children or grandchildren is of singular importance.

I tend to think that the climate in Thailand (and in other equatorial countries) breeds a kind of laziness. Fruit on the trees, fish in the rivers, frogs in the fields, ants in the trees etc., make survival in this climate pretty straightforward.

This is why the Chinese have been extremely successful here in Thailand. They are generally more motivated than their Thai counterparts and they have more money. As for western countries, the Chinese tend to be highly successful at business. I believe it is the racism of westerners coupled with xenophobia of the Chinese themselves, that has prevented them from entering the political arena in large numbers in the West.

not many want rat race, but they need a steady income, so they don't have to worry, where the next bowl of rice is going to come from. Living from day to day is really not fun.

With lack of any social security, they need to save for the time of illness or for retirement, to avoid street begging or getting into crime.

the great majority of thais work for peanuts, monday-saturday 12-15h shifts

Yes. You are right. There is no security net for poor Thais when the inevitable emergency arises. Typically they will rely on their vast collection of family and friends who are similarly poor. I understand this as I have observed it for nearly a decade living here. My extended family is from Isaan. Most alternate between itinerant construction work and farming. Unfortunately neither of these are really steady work. I am continually helping out in emergency situations and during transition times. This is fine. They are my family. I have greater financial means and it doesn't hurt much to help out once in a while or as necessary.

I do find it somewhat galling though that nearly every one of the family members somehow has enough money to get their daily alcohol fix, often to rather extreme excess. In my thinking this money would be better saved for the inevitable rainy day. On the other hand, if I had nothing and not much hope for improvement, based on life decision I and my parents made, I too might be a daily drinker, seeking only sanuk.

"What a load of pseudo-sociological junk."

as increasingly so on TV a very ignorant reply.

I'm so sad that so many posters don't seem to grasp even th most basic issues around the current situations and resort to partisan comments as above.

I wonder what Thai people would make of the bigoted comments about their nation on this web site.

you might want to read up onProf Pasuk Phongpaichit a bit before you blurt out any more of the same.

- The top 20% own 69% of the country's assets while the bottom 20% own only 1%.

-42% of bank savings money comes from only 70,000 bank accounts holding more than 10 million baht. They make up only 0.09% of all bank accounts in the country. In other words, less than 1% of the people own nearly half of the country's savings.

Well done and needs to be said.

Seems many on tv are utterly ignorant of, or need to be reminded of the desperate financial circumstances of a huge proportion of the population.

ph

It's always funny when a farang (like you) thinks they are speaking for Thai people in general and poor thai people in particular.. there is a huge number of the so called "desperate" financially speaking Thai's that are quite happy with their lot in life and for this reason they have no greater goal than to make it to the next day to take it easy and put their feet up. Not due to lack of education but simply lack of motivation or no desire to join the Western Styled Rat Race. Not everyone cars or wants a kick ass pick up or a big screen TV....

Certainly they want the pick-up and the big screen TV. Who doesn't want these things?

Unfortunately they have to make sacrifices, work every day, save money, get educated, work harder, earn more money, save even more money, give up alcohol and other expensive vices, and then finally they will be able to get that big screen TV and fancy new pick-up. Perhaps they can then pass on this vision, drive, and enhanced social power to their children.

This is what the Chinese immigrants do in every country they move to. Later, after a generation or two their children are going to Harvard, Stanford, and Oxford. It is also why we see so many economically and politically powerful Thai-Chinese families in Thailand.

The last news release said the Army was ordered to disperse the protesters????

Taken with a huge grain of salt. This information was announced by Jatuporn on the UDD stage and his source was 'an informant' in Regimental HQ.

We also know that with there is concern that the red shirt footsoldiers may be a bit irritated with the 'conciliatory' moves the red shirt leaders made last night with their new 30-day ultimatum.

The yellows trying to spell "uneducate people".

Can a red shirt help these yellows with their English grammar?

It is very condescending to call others "unedcuated"!!

Or maybe our dear PAD friends really meant uneducate, i.e. Rural folks are educated about democracy by Thaksin and TRT. Now the elites wants to uneducate these poor folks about democracy!!

You could be right.

The red shirt masses have been educated that democracy means killing soldiers and civilians, pouring blood on the PMs house, government house, and Army Regimental HQ, making death threats against government leaders, breaking and entering government facilities, holding up parliament, declaring war on the government, mob violence, intimidation, threatening to burn government buildings, threatening to burn BKK, kidnapping soldiers, hi-jacking trains, gathering illegally, removing evidence from hospitals, defying a state of emergency, lobbing grenades at civilians, threatening to blow up the BTS, blowing up the BTS, harassing innocent passersby, bombing banks, attempting to blow up oil depots, rioting, impaling soldiers with sharpened bamboo sticks, throwing molotov cocktails at security forces, threatening and attempting to blow up oil tankers in residential neighborhoods, bombing opposition protest groups, etc. etc.

Obviously there is a clear and present need to 'uneducate' them.

I think that your name 'way2muchcoffee' is very apt. Is coffee the only stimulant that your on?

nah. today I added an energy drink to the typical 3 cups of morning java....

The yellows trying to spell "uneducate people".

Can a red shirt help these yellows with their English grammar?

It is very condescending to call others "unedcuated"!!

Or maybe our dear PAD friends really meant uneducate, i.e. Rural folks are educated about democracy by Thaksin and TRT. Now the elites wants to uneducate these poor folks about democracy!!

You could be right.

The red shirt masses have been educated that democracy means:

1) killing soldiers and civilians

2) pouring blood on the PMs house, government house, and Army Regimental HQ

3) making death threats against government leaders

4) breaking and entering government facilities

5) breaking into parliament and holding up the process of government

6) disrupting international meetings

7) declaring war on the government

8) mob violence

9) intimidation

10) threatening all who oppose their aims

11) threatening to burn government buildings

12) threatening to burn BKK

13) kidnapping soldiers

14) hi-jacking military trains

15) hi-jacking military buses

16) gathering illegally

17) shutting down the central business district

18) attempting to shut down the central financial district

19) removing evidence from hospitals

20) defying a state of emergency

21) defying lawful orders from all legal authorities

22) lobbing and launching grenades at civilians

23) threatening to blow up the BTS

24) blowing up the BTS

25) harassing innocent passersby

26) bombing banks

27) attempting to blow up oil depots

28) rioting

29) impaling soldiers with sharpened bamboo sticks

30) throwing molotov cocktails at security forces

31) threatening and attempting to blow up oil tankers in residential neighborhoods

32) bombing opposition protest groups

33) assassinating military commanders

etc. etc. etc.

Obviously there is a clear and present need to 'uneducate' them.

I'm 90% with you but there has to be a 'truce' which includes pardoning all (except those 'blacks' who sniped - they are unforgivable and must be caught and punished). It would not be wise to keep pushing the 'Thaksin' button - better to just get to a 3 month election compromise and stop the carnage. However, a caveate, I do think there has to be some sort of 'outside' monitoring of elections.

And what if it can be proven that the grenade throwers are funded by PTP/PPP/TRT MPs or Thaksin, or were acting on orders from the red leaders? They too would then be tried on terrorism charges.

anybody... individuals (not parties) should be held fully accountable

Abhisit/Suthep ordered the army in, with live ammo, and people were killed with the live ammo on April 10th.

Therefore based on this the Democrats should be dissolved and should have terrorism charges against them.

Using live ammo against protestors is designed to "terrorize" them with fear, thats what terror is.

If of course you wish to go down these silly emotional "thoughts for the moment" kind of nonsense.

I am amazed at some of the nonsense spouted on here.

Ahh - and the red shirts firing ak47s, wielding sharpened bamboo sticks, throwing molotov cocktails, and throwing/launching grenades are innocent? Is this the position you are taking?

Please be clear, do you or don't you believe that red shirts and black shirts attacked the military with both war weapons and street weapons? If you agree they did, then do you believe they should be exonerated? If so, why or why not?

Do your conclusions include people who fund the demonstrations and the leaders?

I'm 90% with you but there has to be a 'truce' which includes pardoning all (except those 'blacks' who sniped - they are unforgivable and must be caught and punished). It would not be wise to keep pushing the 'Thaksin' button - better to just get to a 3 month election compromise and stop the carnage. However, a caveate, I do think there has to be some sort of 'outside' monitoring of elections.

And what if it can be proven that the grenade throwers are funded by PTP/PPP/TRT MPs or Thaksin, or were acting on orders from the red leaders? They too would then be tried on terrorism charges.

Even more frightening is the possibility of dissolution of the PTP or any other party if the elections are held under the present constitution, or if all candidates are not free to campaign in all areas of the country. These are very real issues that would quite possibly derail the legitimacy of elections in the near future.

On the table is a plan from the Democrats to amend the constitution in a rational way with real input from all parties, including the PTP, as well as civil society groups and academics. The PTP flatly reject this, instead preferring to use the elections results as a mandate for whatever party wins to amend the constitution in any way they deem appropriate without input from others. This is a recipe for disaster.

'Abhisit, who has been holed up in a military barracks for weeks because of the protests, added: "I have a duty to solve the problem. If I can't I should not be here."'

The above is a direct quote from the article at the head of this thrtead.

It seems that Abhisit has already commited himself to resign as he has not solved the problem and it appears that he is no nearer to solving it than he was when it started .. Time for him to go for the sake of Thailand, the Thai peoples' lives and the Thai economy. With the correct wording of a statement from him the present government could step down without any further lose of face.

You make the mistake of thinking it is just Abhisit who will go in a house dissolution. The entire government, cabinet, the elected MPs from Democrats and coalition partners representing over 50% of the electorate, etc. etc. etc. This is not just a decision for Abhisit. This is a decision that must be made in consultation with all affected parties.

Considering the number of people involved, and the duration, even Thaksin doesn't have the means to fund that. So where's the money coming from? I read a week or so ago about a UDD member in Phuket who sold his car so he could travel to BKK and join the protests. It's just too easy to blame Thaksin. The problem isn't Thaksin, it's the system that has allowed the ever widening social divide that currently exists in Thailand. The Democrats/PAD represent the status quo, i.e. go back to 'the sticks' and continue your miserable life which your children will inherit. Until there's a cohesive policy of national unity, based on every individuals worth and value for contribution, there will be no change.

Cost estimates at the peak, with nearly 100,000 protesters, was 30,000,000 bt per day. Multiply this by 40 days and you get 1.2 billion baht. Wasn't Thaksin just given back some 30 billion baht?

I've got this (strange) feeling now. With the Army saying no force will be used to disperse, it took all the air out of the sails of fury. Now, the Reds say they will accept 30 days and want to negotiate tonight. A huge weight feels lifted.

I think it may all be over soon -- peacefully -- anybody else feel this way?

He also said something else, possibly more important.

Anupong: The Army will (ultimately) protect the Monarchy.

According to the Army assessment report, the predicament was instigated by concerted efforts designed to grab power and overthrow the monarchy

Probably the most telling words we have read since the start of all this.

Combined with a sudden urge to negotiate, I wonder if veera and co have been given an ultamatum / choice?

Many things have have happened very recently

1) The terrorist grenade attack on innocent civilians at the Sala Daeng BTS station.

2) The declaration by the DSI that these attacks carry the death penalty.

3) The international attention that has arisen from the BTS attacks.

4) The capture and confession of a PTP MP/Red Soldier.

5) The meeting of the red shirt leaders with foreign diplomats.

6) The meeting of Anupong with the nation's top generals.

7) The interrogation of possible red shirt financial backers.

8) The PAD situation.

9) The hi-jacking of soldiers in KK.

There seems to be a confluence of events. Any one of these should give red leaders as well as the military and government leaders pause to consider.

I don't believe these figures for one minute.

Neither do I. I expect the numbers are much higher than this.

Does anyone know what happened at that 'mass' demonstration planned earlier in the week for today by the PAD? We were reliably informed by their spokespeople that 100,000 would attend, and especially after last night you'd have thought they could drum up a bit of support.

Instead we get a couple of comments from the Nation's 'update' saying 'large numbers' of people were gathering in Royal Plaza. Not even a dedicated full story mocking the obvious inability of the PAD to draw anywhere near what they said they would, or a ridiculously skewed estimate of numbers. Such stories are only for red shirt protests.

The Nation's silence speaks volumes. Long may it continue.

Don't you think last night's events would cause most government supporters to stay at home. Who wants to be the victim of a grenade attack?