CRUNCHER

18 minutes ago, Asiantravel said:

I noticed there are many pages of information but in Thai posted on the entrance door of the small office / marketing building next to the development and it looks as though the office building itself ihas been closed.

There is also this sketch plan. What this is the shaded part? does this mean the office building has also encroached onto public land?

I believe the sales office was closed in January by order of City Hall.

Looking at the sketch it looks like a case of encroachment.  All I can say is that it has taken City Hall two and half years of having Waterfront under the microscope to work this out and do something about it. 

If that is the level of efficiency of City Hall it is small wonder that this is taking so long to resolve. Whatever faults that Bali Hai might or might not have, it is clear that a major contributing factor to this fiasco lies at the door of City Hall. 

1 minute ago, champa said:

guess? 

I wouldn't even like to try.  Do you know?

7 minutes ago, champa said:

Do you know how  much money Park Plaza Hotels/Red Sea invests in Balihai company? 

 

No I don't

4 minutes ago, Gopro said:

bali hai don't even own it anymore, it was disposed of long ago

 

Actually Bali Hai is the legal owner of the Waterfront project.  Bali Hai in turn is owned by Park Plaza Hotels/Red Sea

5 minutes ago, Asiantravel said:

 I hope they don’t leave that crane perched on top of the building for another 6 to 7 years

Don't worry.  It will fall down before then.  City Hall would not even allow Bali Hai to carry out maintenance or safety checks.

53 minutes ago, champa said:

City hall will be another creditor. 

I don't know much about the Thai bankruptcy laws, but as I understand it the bank is likely to be the only secured creditor via a lien on the land (but not the building). Even if the bank can sell the land (difficult) there will not be much left over when they get their money back. I believe City Hall will have no priority.

Bali Hai will not have much in the way of other assets and unsecured creditors will be lucky to get  ten cents on the dollar.  If I am right the tax payer will foot the bill - if it ever gets demolished. The current bankruptcy protection proceeding can drag on for 5 or 7 years, I am not sure which

There are still examples in Bangkok from the 1997 financial crisis.

10 minutes ago, champa said:

It is hard to explain about Thai laws and regulations for building. As I understand, city hall has involved with the developer in 3 parts.

First,  city hall inspects the construction plan (Paper) and issue the construction permit. Normally the permit period will be 2-3 years depend on the scale of the building.

 

Second, city hall inspects the work in process (ฺBuilding) when the developer request for expend the building period.

 

Third, when the building is finished. City hall inspects the building to ensure about securities and regulations. For public building such as hotel, apartment, school, condominium, etc. city hall must approves the license for the building usage. 

 

In August 2014, Pattaya Mayor announced the suspense order of waterfront project. He said that the construction permit would be expired by September 2014. The develop request for expend the permit on June. Then city hall had to inspect the building and the construction plan. So they found that the developer change the building without permission in July. He specified only 2 parts, the elevators and fire exit stairway. 

 

After that he went to the construction site at late August 2014. He said that to change the building match the construction plan. The developer must revoke the most part of the building. He found that the building was incorrectly counting from its foundation. 

 

Pattaya watchdog group had compliant Pattaya city hall for this issue. They found that the developer had requested for expend the building period 2 times before 2014. How come pattaya city hall did not find the incorrect thing? The previous pattaya city management team had never answer this question.

 

The developer had met with previous pattaya city management team many times during 2 years. If you remember on July 2015 Pattaya city team has inspect the building. It seem like they would reissue the construction permit then but finally it was not happen. One or two week before the previous management team end of their period in June 2016. It was a last meeting of developer and the previous management team.It was quoted in the press that the developer requested the permission before the previous management team end their period. 

 

The current management team just started working last month. They met with the buyers and the lawyer. They informed the fact of everything to the buyers.

 

I am not sure how many issue for the construction plans. The developer once confirmed to the press on December 2016 that pattaya city request  to inspect in 42 issues. There are not only 2 issues, parking area and over space area. But what else?

 

Finally if the building is illegal. City hall must order to be demolished. If the owner refuse to do so. City hall should demolish and bill the owner. The sample case is Balihai plaza and hotel which were demolished on mid of 2016. The total cost is 1.2 million baht will be billed to the owner. 

Problem is, if Bali Hai is bankrupt, where does City Hall send the bill?

2 minutes ago, pattayadude said:

Agreed!

here we just express our opinions and I never claim I am right.

However, if it looks,walks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure if this construction is deemed illegal, it's only fair to think someone did something illegal.

There are discrepancies here stinking to high heavens.

On the other hand,if developer bankrupts(and I doubt it as it's a $30B company) and walks, how is this City gonna cough up millions of dollars to demolish it

if they can't even put together 50-100million baht ($3M) to fix the freakin marina!

There is no money in the piggy.period.

They will just auction it and the next developer will pick it at 50 cents on the dollar and everybody will go home.they will pick up the pieces and find a way to resume the construction.

or.....

the City eventually will have it "their way"(however you perceive it) and make Bali hai  kncok off 10 floors (not 5), and they will save their face, Bali Hai will lose quite a bit but in the long run the hotel business  will make up for the loss when it opens its doors and will probably run with no vacancy

Again you are right. If Bali Hai goes to the wall the permit will lapse.  They will not be able to demolish. The bank will take the land that will be worth peanuts.  The bank wont put more money in to demolish.  Who will buy the land with that shell on it?  No one.  As you said City Hall can't afford to demolish and would probably screw it up anyway.

7 hours ago, pattayadude said:

Why are these "issues" such a top secret that no one dares to share them with public after almost 3 years? who is afraid of spilling the beans here?

Or is it their intention to take these facts with them to the grave?

I just can't comprehend this anymore

Champa, there is an old quote: But isn't the thief culpable at all?

Realizing the doors and windows unlocked,a thief breaks in a house and steals everything.

Next day all neighbors blame the owner of the house for being very negligent and harshly criticize him for leaving the doors and windows wide open.

Frustrated with being the only culpable for this break-in, the owner finally lashes out " But isn't the thief culpable at all???

 

Profit-driven, opportunistic and greedy developers are known for "changing the buildings", building extra floors without permission and try to bribe authorities for various reasons for extra profit all over the world for centuries. Yes.. they are culpable for doing so!

But aren't the authorities ALSO culpable for turning blind eye, lack of inspection during the construction of a mega structure such as the Waterfront???

It is so easy to put the blame on one party and having said this, I am not trying to protect the developer. on the contrary, I think they ARE to be blamed for all this mess

But we aren't talking a hen-house here..its a 50floor high-rise building for God's sake!

Why didn't the authorities catch these variations from the beginning before it was too late?

"what" did or didn't happen that was not supposed to or supposed to?

 

If not this, then what is the City's responsibility???

Help build, coordinate, beautify  or destroy?

 

 

You are right Pattayadude.  It is time to sort this farce out one way or another.

The developer has put some information into the public domain, but I doubt he has disclosed everything. City Hall has put nothing in the public domain which I find surprising.  You would think they would want to offer something to justify their position.

City Hall waited for about (if my memory serves me right) 2 weeks after the building was topped off before issuing the stop order.  I find the timing odd to say the least, but perhaps I am being overly suspicious. Certainly they should have acted much sooner if this was necessary.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Personally I think when (and if) finished it will look good.  Others disagree and I respect their opinion.  Whichever side of the equation you are on, I suspect that most people would prefer to see it finished rather than have the shell remain in that state for the next 10 years.  That is what will happen, with the inevitable litigation, if the project is ended. 

A spectacular failure.  About 1 - 2 pm today the area around Bali Hai was grid locked chaos. It stretched right back to Theppreya and the fly over.  The traffic lights at the junction of Theppreya/Third Road were not much use as the junction was permanently blocked by tour buses.  When the lights changed no one could move because of buses in the middle of the junction.  Not a policeman in sight.

The mobile number posted on the door is no longer active.

Anyone got an update?  Any alternative in the city apart fro Canterbury Tales which I do not rate highly.

14 hours ago, johng said:

well the legal battle goes on and on (like the energizer bunny)
latest court has ruled the building permit is not legally issued....what happens next more appeals and more wait and see ?
 

 

First I have heard of this.  When was the case, which court and who was the plaintiff(s)

17 hours ago, pattayadude said:

concrete can last many many years even exposed to elements.Moreover, this particular project was topped off therefore  re-bars were not exposed.Even if they were, some rust proof paint can protect them for years or a decade.

I know of  a few projects which had been halted  for several years, resumed afterwards with no issues.

Northshore to name but one.

It also seems from the Nation's article that an EIA presentation is necessary.  So perhaps it is not all done and dusted yet.

Don't forget the (world wide) media motto - "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."

An article in the Nation gives more details.

The difference between the removal of 5 or 8 floor is now clear. The original permit was for 53 floors.  Tulip reduced that to 50 floors on taking over the project.  The current management has agreed to remove a further 5 floor to make 45 floor.

According to the article construction has started again.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/business/property/30301552

16 minutes ago, John DDD said:

... On the picture of his passport, on the left of the last " signed ", a stamp in Thai language : " คดีความ "  Which means " lawsuit " in English...

...This may explain That...

Surely if he is involved in a lawsuit he can get 90 day extensions until the case is concluded?

Also if he could get back in on a tourist visa he cannot be on the blacklist. 

This sounds like visa/working issues.  Something similar happened to someone I know.  Immigration put him on the plane, removed the handcuffs and told him he could come back with a new visa and start the process for a work permit again.

Yeh!  Beach Books.  Where have they gone?

12 hours ago, johng said:

Latest news is the developers   have suggested  lopping off the top 8 floors as a way of bringing the build ( more) into line with the permit

and enabling the project to finish.

According to a letter I saw, unless anything has changed in the last month or so, it is 5 floors.  Apparently City Hall has accepted this, subject to the developer's plan to remove the 5 floors, but there are some outstanding issues relating to the car park.

8 minutes ago, DanaDeLuxe said:

Thailand has gone black and white for the time of mourning. Thaivisa has too. :)

That was my first thought, but on IE TV is still in colour as is my iPhone.

I usually view Thaivisa on Firefox.  Suddenly all TV pages, including photos, are in black and white only.  Other web pages are in colour as normal.

When I view TV on IE everything is in colour as per normal.

Any suggestions as to what is wrong?

There is always the new marina.   Ooops!  What new marina?

22 hours ago, scotchonrocks said:

So let's get this straight. 

 

1) There will be some obligation on any foreigner entering the country to have a phone,

 

2) To be compulsory to have a local SIM card in said phone (foreign SIMs barred?)

 

3) Have the phone powered up at all times so said foreigner can always be traced. What about when the phone's battery goes down or the phone is u/s? Will they pay us to keep our phones powered up?

 

4) if my "flen" lends me her phone. Can I now be arrested for "carrying an illegal phone?

 

5) Roaming no longer allowed or possible? What if I am roaming on my friend's overseas phone?

 

6) Will it be illegal to switch off your phone in the cinema or meetings. Will you pay a price for being "out of coverage area??

 

<deleted>? Can they not see this is a goddam stupid idea dreamed up by brainless bureaucrats with no understanding of how the world works. Maybe they have been on a fact finding tour of North Korea.

 

Stupid, unworkable and utterly ill conceived.

Indeed.

A real prostitutes pregnancy - conceived in great haste, at much expense and bound to result in an abortion.

This is all to do with business opportunities.

Some expats will object in principle on privacy grounds, as is their right.  Most expats probably could not care less. However, those who do want to hide from the authorities will provide a big market for sim cards registered in a Thai name - at a cost of course.

Fill your boots Thai organized crime!!

12 minutes ago, apex2000 said:

Actually, I don't need a SIM to use my phone. All my contacts are on LINE or Messenger anyway. All I need is WiFi. Bye bye SIM.

I don't understand these things.  If you are on the street and there is no wifi hotspot available can you still use LINE etc?

Wonder how this will affect the motor cycle rental business?