TroubleandGrumpy

Just because it is not aimed at you, does not mean you will not be 'hit'. The devil will as alwauys be in the detail - none of which we have at this time. If the Thai RD implements this new rule and targets all bank tranfers into Thailand, it will hit us all.

The rule is very clear. But obviously they do not currently enforce that rule for Thais andnon-working Expats. Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis. Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Are you kidding? How much do you transfer into Thailand over a year?

The problem is that they might/can look at your money transfers into Thailand. How they look at those bank transfers is unknown - in the past they just let it go. Anyone bringing in a large amount of money after Jan 1 2024 is now under the threat of being 'looked at' and then asked where did those funds come from - and then to prove it was not taxable income.

I disagree with several of the points/claims made by the OP. IMO there is no need to lodge a tax return in Thailand, unless you have an income that is 'taxable' in Thailand and you have to pay tax. Just because you are a tax resident does not mean you have to lodge a tax return. Is the OP claiming that every Thai citizen currently lodges a tax return every year. No they do not - because the majority of Thais do not earn over 150K Baht per year (and many do not bother). IMO unless a tax resident or citizen is required to pay taxes, then there is no need to lodge a tax return. Yes I could be wrong - but if Thailand demands all Expat tax residents who do not work here (those retired or married without a work permit) have to lodge a tax return, but not all Thais have to lodge a tax return who are working, that will result in a wave of complaints about racial discrimination. Mine will be one of the first they get.

EDIT - Here is the current condo property market......... for all Foreigners and Expats living in Thailand more than 180 days per year. I would say that any of us even thinking about buying a condo or a house, meaning bringing in the large amount of money to pay fopr that, are now in a 'holding pattern'.

I have found some documentation which would be used by an Expat if the Thai RD decided that the DTA with their home country does not apply and they have to pay tax. These two RD website links provide some details about what is required if they wish to appeal/dispute that decision made by the Thai RD. MutualAgreementProcedureProfile.pdf (rd.go.th) final_MAPmanualEN.pdf (rd.go.th) As clear as mud, and as uncomplicated as a space rocket - and the 'appeal' must be made it Thai. Clearly, anyone in that situation will have to spend a lot of time and money, including employing a Thai 'specialist', in order to have any chance of success. And judging by the past 'success rate' of Expats taking Thais to a Court, I would say the chances of winning are none and buckleys.

I hope so - and I hope that Somchai will not demand that it be Notorised and Translated and signed by a Director of the Social Security Department ????

Yes indeed. My plans to buy a new car next year have been cancelled. Likewise, any potential plan to buy a property in Thailand in the future (rather than rent) are now well and truly cancelled. I think MFP will probably win the next election, and I think that Thailand is moving towards a more progressive country - unless yet another coup crushes that change. If/when Thailand becomes more 'modern', that will include more social welfare support, and that will mean more taxation. Being able to leave to avoid new taxation regulations being introduced in the future, is now a given in my forward planning.

For those interested I have received a reply from that legal/tax firm about their statement saying: The new rules state that if you spend more than 180 days in Thailand per year, you will be required to declare all of your foreign income, regardless of when it was earned or whether it was remitted to Thailand. They are getting a lot of enquiries about the matter, and they have backtracked a little on their statement and advised that 'Nobody knows exactly how it’s gonna work.' They also stated that it will probably not be clear until some time in 2024 - if this does go ahead - it might be 'delayed'. They also advised that this step was meant to catch people who were using a loophole to avoid avoid tax on their revenues made outside the country - such as crypto traders and overseas property investments. The Thai Govt has stirred up a hornets nest among Expats and Thais who invest overseas. This will probably end up in the Court, because for over 30 years the Thai RD has operated in a manner based on an interetation of the Act that has been ratified by several Court decisions in the past - it is likely that making such an arbitrary change (and in so short a period of time) will be challenged in Court. Rather than allow that to happen (and lose political credibility) the Govt will probably delay the change - maybe.

Yes that is true - I have read most of those articles and the DTA between Thai and Aust. However it might come down to how Somchai the Thai RD 'officer' views the situation. How many times have the IOs done things that are not in the rules - and how often does this Immi Office and that Immi Office view things differently. I am assuming that the Thai RD as an organisation would be more 'centralised' than the Thai Immigration organisation, but I have no idea how they operate. They certainly do have Offices across the country, but do they, like Thai Immigration, also have a lot of autonomy in each Province? The big question I have about this matter in regards to this matter is - What documents would I have to provide to prove I have already paid taxes on any earnings in Australia/ Having a DTA is one thing - the issue is how do I use that to avoid being taxed in Thailand. I have contacted the Aust Tax Dept (ATO) and they have not yet responded (probably will not - or they will say go see a lawyer).

Because some of us are 'dug in' and some have a Thai partner and some with kids etc etc etc.

With individual experts who are specialists in the DTA for each home country. They are all very different.

I agree that due to DTAs it should be a non-issue for many people. But that does not mean that it will not become and issue. There is a legal brief vid on youtube where an American lawyer explains that a DTA is an agreement, and both side to that agreement may and do often have a different interpretation of what the words therein mean. There are no guarantees either way.

I have stopped work, but I have not converted my Super to Retirement Phase. Therefore all earnings made by my Super Fund are taxed at 15%, before distribution to its members who like me have their money in the Accumulation Phase. I did not convert my Super Funds to the Retirement Phase for two reasons. Number One - both the Government, the Super Funds, and a lot of 'Advisers' were saying that people should convert to Retirement Phase because their money in Super does not then get taxed. I have been in and around Government and large corporate organisations for a long time, and they never do anything that is not in their own best interests - especially the Government - so I checked out the details and once I had done that the decision I made was not to do it (see 2). Number Two - once you 'convert' your Super to Retirement Phase, it is classified as an income - by Centrelink, ATO and all other Govt Depts. Additionally, once it is converted, you cannot go back to Accumulation Phase. I can stay in Accumulation Phase until I am 75 - and that is my plan. And (of course) I have a few plans for what to do after that time - but it is quite a few years away yet - things will change and meanhile I am staying across all the changes in Super rules.

I have absolutely no argument with what you have said - and it is your right to view this matter in anyway that you decide. But I/we are certainly not 'fearmongering' - we are discussing the issues involved, saying what we believe they mean, and sharing thoughts on what might happen, and giving our ideas on how to manage the probable scenarios that might develop. There is absolutely no certainties in this matter at this time - there is only possibilities and probabilities - and both informed and uninformed opinions. Having said that I will respond a little to those listed items that you said the Thai RD will need to have in order to 'come knocking on the door'. The Thai RD (any Tax Dept) does not do that as a matter of course, and then send you a detailed summary of your tax bill. How it works, in varying degrees, is that the Tax Dept is informed or finds out or notices (large bank deposit/s over a year etc etc etc) that someone might be avoiding their taxation obligations. First Step - are they liable to pay taxation. In Thailand that means resident for 180 days and if you are a non-immigrant Visa holder then it will be assumed you are - you will have to prove you were not in Thailand for 180 days or more - you will have to prove that - they will only have to prove you are a tax resident if goes to a Court as step one of the formal/legal process. Second Step - check if the person has they lodged an annual taxation return (for this exercise the answer is no). If they have, then check that return against whatever information they have that instigated the check. Third Step - if there appears to be a problem, do more detailed checking (what that is in Thailand we have no idea - it will probably be just check out your bank details over the year - maybe more). Fourth Step - decide whether to send you a letter asking why you did not file a tax return (or did it incorrectly), and maybe ask you to come and visit them. That is what the term 'knocking on your door' means - sorry if you thought that was meant literally. Although that might happen if they get no response from you.

As I just found out - Day 180 is 28th June 2024. Therefore if anyones leaves to avoid this tax khrapp they have to leave on or before 27th June 2024.

You are right - I counted them myself and 1Jan to 30June is 182 days. Thanks for the advice - never knew they did that. Therefore 180 days is 28th June 2024 Also noted that February 2024 is 29 days - Leap Year.

Agree. However, it is unlikely to be sorted out by either in less than 3 months. Hopefully it will be 'delayed' due to 'implementation issues'. Maybe it will then die and go away quietly - like one of those 'Global Hubs' we keep hearing about.

There are many opinions on that issue, but it does appear to me that tax is 'liable' on any income earned overseas in 2024 if you are a tax resident in 2024 - subject to all the exemptions and dediuctions and any DTAs in place between Thailand and the country where that income is earned. How and when that tax liability will be applied is very uncertain - immediately or only when the money is remitted back into Thailand. Under the old way they only taxed income brought into Thailand in the year it was earned. Nopw it is 'taxable income' in any year earned (2024 onwards). IMO it will be applied when the money is brought into Thailand, because that money overseas could/should be subject to local taxation.

No one knows - not even the tax experts.

Yes that is the interpretation I agree with - it will be based upon self-declaration. Privacy laws do not exist in Thailand - in practice (same as riding a bike without a helmet is illegal). IMO the 'wise' way to deal with this issue is not to do anything that could come back and bite you very hard in a year or two or five. What I am doing is finding out as much as I can about exactly what is happenning, how the Thai RD will apply this change, and how that will affect me personally. That includes getting and giving thoughts and opinions on this forum, checking Thai RD website and many others, and when the time is right, getting advice. This is what I have so far: I am going to be a tax resident if I am still in Thailand on 29th June 2024. The new change/rules will affect me personally. Thailand and Australia have a DTA and the pension I receive is excluded from Taxation by Thailand. Under that same DTA the other money I bring into Thailand has already been taxed and is also exempt. However I have no idea how the Thai RD will decide if the money I bring in is taxable in Thailand or not. And I have no idea how and in what form the Thai RD would require 'proof' that I have already paid taxes in Australia on the money I bring into Thailand. What I do know is that just because Thai/Aust have a DTA will not mean that any money from there will be automatically viewed as having been taxed. Obviously because those 61 DTA countries would become the countries where those avoiding Thai taxation would invest their money and pay no taxes. What I am also very very confident about is that this will be a cluster (#) and Thai RD will screw it up. What I plan to do, if it looks like this will be a viable strategy, is to have everything sorted and filed and ready. I will not be completing a Thai Tax Return in 2025 - because I believe that I have no taxable income in Thailand. If/when I am asked by the Thai RD why I have not done one (or they just send me a taxation bill), I will send them the documents etc. that I have alrerady sorted and filed through a taxation expert/accountant. Another option is to pay a taxation expert to lodge my tax returns - but IMO in the the first few years of all this, that would be as unwise as sticking my head up lighting up a cigarette at night in the WW1 trenches.

180 Days From January 1, 2024 - Convert Dates (convert-dates.com) According to that and several others (and my Outlook Calendar) the 180th day from January1 is June29th 2024

More than 180 days (in total) is the official directive. Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Yes you are right. 180 days from Jan 1 2024 is June 29th 2024. That is the deadline date ????