TroubleandGrumpy

Exactly. Exactly what is a Mutual Fund to the Thai RD - does that definition include Mutual Funds overseas. If I do have to lodge a tax return, how will I prove to Somchai that my Mutual Fund (Super) in Australia has already applied a 15% tax to all the earnings in the Super Fund. Will Thailand view the Super Fund 'earnings' as taxable. Obviously the only way to get those answers will be if/when Thai RD releases all the clarifications and details. But at least I have a good grasp on what the questions are that I will need to ask. The thought of throwing everything over to a Thai lawyer/accountant, with no idea how things might affect my finances, is not my idea of a good strategy.

No mate. Unless you stay 180 or more days total in Thailand in any tax year (Jan to Dec), then you are not a tax resident and you are not required to lodge a tax return. I should have specified - my answer is for tax residents only. My point being it would be very unwise to not lodge a tax return if you might have taxable income, because in the future the Thai RD can backdate their 'audit' and severely nail anyone for not loding a return, plus they can apply severe penalties to any money they determine is owing.

Yes that could be so. But it will not be clear until the Thai RD provide guidelines and details. It is only on that basis that it is wise to 'stay under radar' and not lodge a tax return. If the Thai RD guidelines and details (when they are provided), make it clear that we must do a tax return and that we must prove the money is not income, then to not lodge a tax return is very dangerous. If you break the tax laws and dont file a return, they can audit you for up to 7 or 10 years (not sure which). And their penalties can include veryu serious fines, interest of 1.5% on any amounts owing, jail terms, and then of course deportation. Dont mess with the Tax Office is my strong advice to anyone - anywhere in the world.

I always wear a helmet and shoes and gloves and watch the road ahead closely. Just me - but I would rather prepare for the fall, than wait until it happens.

Ditto. Then most money coming in 2024 will be my Pension to see how it goes.

Unlike the Thai Immigration Police, the Thai RD staff are not expected to speak English. Certainly you can lodge a tax return in English or Thai, but according to my read of their 'guidelines' they can ask for any English documents to be translated into Thai and certified. Any subsequent 'appeal' against their decision, must be 100% in Thai - just like when you try to take any matter to a Thai Court.

And there we have it - totally guaranteed statement of fact from one who knows it all and understands everything about this matter. Thank you so much mate. Please put 1 Million Baht into an escrow account and send me the details - I will take that out only if the impossible happens and you are wrong. You know, I can recall a similar situation years ago when Expats were being fined and nailed for the TM30s, when the hotel had not reported them staying. This happened after the Junta decided to crack down on TM30 compliance - no rules were changed - they just enforeced them literally. After a few months the Thai Foreign Journalists Association organised a meeting which was attended by the Head of Immigration in Bangkok 1 Region and his minions. Their attitude was antagonistic and conforting - they were obviously told to attend. After quite a bit of 'toing and froing' the Head himself answered one question - 'Why must an Expat pay a fine when it is the Hotel that has not lodged the TM30 and he cannot?' His answer was "That is the Law" and he sat down. The event was recorded and the blowback in the media, including outside Thailand, was big. Not long after that they eased up the enforcement of that TM30 Law - which is still there. If you dont understand why I said the above - it is about interpretation and enforcement. I do hope you are right - but if you are wrong I will be 1 Million Baht richer - that should pay my taxes for a few years ????

Jacob - that is not the issue or concern. The issue/concern is the potential taxation of pensions and savings being brought into Thailand by Expats, when that money being brought into Thailand is listed as an International Transfer - was it income, was it savings, etetc etc - and how to 'prove' that to the satisfaction of the Thai RD if required. The complexity and problems are half the issue, and being required to pay income taxes on money that is not income (as such) is the othjer, and the third big problem is having to deal with the Thai RD.

Thanks mate. And you are right - I am the Grumpy one, and the Thai wife is Trouble ???? Like you I have dealt with many Tax Offices, through working with the Australian Tax Office (as an IT Supplier), and I have known many friends and colleagues who worked in the ATO. For those that do not know, in Australia the Fed Govt is very much like the USA Fed Govt. In the USA the vast majority are in Washington, and in Australia they are all in Canberra where I lived for 20+ years (for my sins). But unlike in USA, the State Govts in Aust are much much smaller - the Aust Fed Govt is way bigger than in USA or UK or anywhere I am aware of. When I say 'bigger', I mean their authority and control over how all Australians live and work. The Tax Office in Australia is omnipotent and controls all taxation in the country and internationally.

I and many many others agree with you Tom - it is a totally unacceptable situation that appears to be developing right in front of us, and we do not know when it will become clear what is going to happen. My Thai wife and I lived in Thailand for almost 5 years, then we lived in Australia for 5 years, and now we are back in Thailand. The plan was to live here for 10-15 years, and then (maybe) go back to Australia when very old (in 80s). This was all planned - the wife is Aust Citizen and I was forced to live there to 'qualify' for the Pension (living in Aust being one condition). Nowhere in all that planning both socially and financially was there any consideration for lodging tax returns and being obliged to pay income taxes in Thailand. Unlike some of the Exp[ats on here, my Thai Wife is adamant that I/we will not pay income taxes in Thailand, on the money I get as a Pension and from my life savings in Super. Hopefuly when all the dust/cloud clears that will not be the case, but every 'announcement' since this was first advised by the Thai RD, has not stated that retired/married Expats are not being targetted to pay income taxes in Thailand. We have two 'frontline' options, because only staying 179 days would be too difficult for me/us (we rent). First is to move to another country nearby, so we can easily visit for holidays now and then - Malaysia and Philippines look the best options at this time - maybe Indonesia (Bali). Seconds is to move back to Australia - maybe somewhere up north so it is a much shorter flight to get here and to other destinations we planned to visit in Asia using Thailand as our base (Singapore, Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia - I have no intention of ever returning to India).

Thanks mate. Same here - sometimes they are great - sometimes they are just nasty. Somehow Mike does not realise that it will be ugly, IF/WHEN when 100,000 retired/married Expats are forced to lodge tax returns, and they are not happy about it, and many let the Thai RD know that, and some even tell them to shove their coffee where the sun does not shine.

I can only agree with those who have responded with their feelings towards this Expat gone Feral tripe. Sad, confused and hilarious. Good luck Mike. Remember me when you are 'bitten' by the Thai bureacracy/laws.

There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office. May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration. My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.

Exactly. If the RD is directed to go forward under this new 'method', then without any exclusions for retired/married Expats (like in Malaysia, Philippiones, and other countries) that means all Expat remittances into Thailand can (will?) be viewed as taxable income. In the past we were put in the one of many 'too hard' baskets by the Thai RD - not worth the efforts. Clearly the Govt is pushing them to close the loopholes, and to also pursue all taxable income. I do expect that there will be some sort of clarification for all people who could be affected under this change, not just Expats, prior to the end of December this year. I just cannot fathom Expats who think they can decide themselves what the tax office will decide is and is not taxable, and how DTAs can and will be applied by the RD. I also think they dont realise that claim (I thought it was not taxable), is not a valid response when/if they are audited in the future. As I have said before, my plan in response to this new reality in Thailand, is to bring in extra funds before end December this year (because I will not be a tax resident this year). Then I plan in 2024 to will only bring in my Pension (audit trial included) and some small withdrawals from my Super savings (again audit trail included). I will then lodge a tax return in 2025 and see how it goes. However, depending on how things pan out, I may change that strategy. If Thailand Govt/RD provides a clear direction that my money will not be taxable income, and that I do not need to lodge a tax return, then it will be business as usual going forward. If the Thailand Govt/RD states that all Expat remittances into Thailand over XYZ Baht are taxable income, and each Expat has to claim exemptions and/or credits in their annual tax returns, then I will probably be leaving Thailand (depends on how much I might have to pay) depending on how my 2025 tax return goes.

I agree - but some think it will all be fine. Each to his own - I would prefer to know now, rather than find out later when fines and interest penalties could get involved.

Agree - lets agree to disagree.

Thanks for that detailed explanation - now I understand - no you had not detailed that before. IMO you should be careful if/when they make this change - I suggest getting advice from a tax lawyer/accountant. The reason I say that is because while you are a tax resident in Thailand, the rental money you recieve in UK is taxable income in Thailand. In answer to your question. My Thai lawyer told me that a tax return in Thailand using a DTA for exmeption or credits is a complex matter and it would not be easy or cheap. Likewise, I have seen two vlogs by lawyers in Thailand who both say any tax return involving DTAs is complex - and one that at this point in time they are only used for companies tax returns (not personal income tax). So please tell me Mike - given that you have never done a tax return involving DTA exemptions and credits - what make you think that they will be easy?

Excellent point/questions. The answere IMO is ' They dont have a clue'. A few weeks ago a report was released that showed clearly that although there had been a big growth in tourism in late 2022 and early 2023, there had been no measurable positive impact on the local economy at the grassroots level. That of course was quickly forgotten, and they made even more efforts to increase tourism - including Visa exempt entry for the Chinese. This was done while they constantly looked the other way regarding the constant news about the amount of crimes being committed by 'Chinese' people. To understand what the answers are to your questions, means knowing how the rich got richer during Covid, while the vast majority of us got poorer. The uber rich are very good at 'making money' during difficult times - they and the media thrive during those periods - they love a 'good war'. That is the same in Thailand.

That is yet to be determined - exactly how the Thai RD wants Expats to 'report' their remittances into Thailand - if they do. Right now, it would be that you complete the claim and attach what documents you think are relevent. But under the new 'method' it might be that much more is required - or the Thai RD may make a info release saying certain payments to foreigners on long term Visas is not required to be lodged - but we have to wait and see. In a recent post I detailed what they did in Malaysia when they introduced this change in 2021 (I think). After much 'feedback' they delayed the implementation by 5 years, and exempted personal income taxes from being affected. They start their new 'method' in 2026 - hopefully Thailand does the same. PS - expats on long term Visas in Malaysia are exmpted from taxes on remittances - as long as the money brought in, is for spending inside Malaysia and is not sent onwards to another country (without a valid reason).

Yes I can see that Mike - very strongly - but that is up to you. I say this because I was the same 10 years ago - 'No it is not a Visa extension it is a Permission to Stay extension'. But I realised that it does not really matter, as long as you know what the person means. Certainly, I dont agree with them, but I learnt it is easier to let it go and do not 'correct' them. Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years? I would also suggest you rer-read all of your comments and mine regarding a Resident and tax resident. Nowhere do I say that I do not know the difference - I am very aware of them - I have spoken to a lawyer about applying for Residency - very little chance (not employed/working). You assume that I dont know and then go into a rant - you are looking for disagreement Mike - re-read and you will see. I have both studied all the taxation documents released by Thai RD, I have downloaded the Thai RD online tax return documents, I have studied all the press releases by the Thai Lawyers (including Sherrings which you gave), and I have been emailing back and forth with my Thai lawyer. It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA - and if you re-read one of your own posts you dont know anything about it when I specifically asked you: Posted Tuesday at 06:54 PM I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment. Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable. And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys). But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ????

10 Billion - then TAT would get paid HUGE bonuses for bringing exconomic properity and happiness to the Thai people. I am sure that in a country run by people that have no care about repairing the roads and footpaths (and everything else), that the people running the place dont give a rat's rear about how badly Chinese behave - as long as they spend money.

There you are. Shouldn't you be getting back to your village? I am sure they miss you. Yes I am sure they do.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Residency Mike - did you apply and get rejected. Or is it just that you are on a one man crsade to stop people using the wrong technical term ???? I suggest you just let it go mate. People say the wrong thing about extending their 'Visa' when of course it is their Permission to Stay. Correcting what others say all the time is not a good sign. You might be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand - and you can claim that lodiging a tax return in Thailand will be all fairy floss and unicorns - but most of us disagree. And please dont correct me and say there are no unicorns in Thailand - you (should) know what I mean.

My advice to you mate. Rural Thailand is nothing like Rural USA - not even on the same planet. But I also agree with you in regards to Pattaya etc. There are Expats in all the main Isaan Cities, but unlike in other parts of Thailand, most of them are not Sexpats who you want to avoid at all costs. Many of them are blokes who may have started out that way here, but they grew up and started a long term relationship with an Isaan girl in Bangkok, Pattaya etc., and then they moved there. There are also those Expats that got hooked by a bar girl and he thinks she will always love him - bla bla bla. If you are looking for somewhere to go as a single and then maybe find an Isaan girl, my advice to you is to be very very careful - you will stand out like a Bulldog's balls and you will become a 'target' for the 'not so good' Isaan girls. May I suggest that you go to Chiang Mai first and whist there, start getting used to the Thai culture - and stay single. Chiang Mai aint Isaan, but it is a lot closer to the 'real' rural Thailand of Isaan than Bangkok, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui or Phuket etc. Once you have 'adjusted' in Chaing Mai then go to each of those Cities you mentioned, for at least 2 weeks each, to get a feel of the place and see if you like it. PS - never buy a property in Thailand - rent (easy to move or get away). On a broader note, English is everywhere in Thailand - but it is not spoken everywhere. The street signs are in Thai and English. The Thai ID Cards are in both - as are many other Government Docs. Most Thai websites have an English option. Rural farmers in Isaan tend to not speak English much, while the Doctor in Bangkok will speak fluent English. Many Issan girls go to work in the big cities where tourists are - some start working in the 'bar girl' industry, but most do not. Avoid bar girls unless you just want them for a short period of time, and absolutely you must stay away from any girl that was a bar girl. Do your research. Take your time.

Isn't this from Thai BS organisations that claims 3.8 million 'tourists' have arrived from Malaysia in 2023, and they all spent 50K Baht during their visit, generated 200 Billion Baht in 'economic benefits'? Even the tallest village idiot should know that the vast majority of 'visitors' from Malaysia come over the southern border (walk) - for work, family and other social reasons. Maybe I am wrong, but I have not seen any large numbers of Malaysians about in Bangkok, Chonburi, Pattaya or Rayong - and someone said on their vlog recently 'They aint here in Phuket'. Are they all going to Hua Hin maybe? Chiang Mai? Isaan?