TroubleandGrumpy

Maybe. Other options are Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia (Bali for the Aussies). Cheap airfares back to Thailand to visit family, friends, girls - stay less than 180 days in total any calendar year.

Not when/if the Immigration requires an annual tax clearance as one of the conditions for renewal. And there are so many other ways thius can go wrong for Expats. However, wait until mid-late 2024 when (hopefully) Thai RD has provided clarifications and details of the process. PS - some say I am over-reacting. Yes that is probably true. BUT I have had many years of expoerience in dealing with Govt Depts in Aust (especially ATO) and I know about many people who got caught out. And you do not want to get caught out by the Thai RD - much harsher penalties than ATO. Stay across it and stay informed - by end 2024 we will know how bad or good it really is.

Careful - international deposits are recorded - and the wife might be required to pay income tax on all of that money she was 'paid' by you. I thought the same thing - but it also has hairs on it.

That is the only way to 'avoid' this problem that I have seen so far. However, you could be asked one day 'where you get money to pay for things' - but that is extremely unlikely. If you do that - keep it to yourself - people talk too much and one day some Thai might report you. And yes - cash is taxable, depending on how you obtained it.

If this does not go away, they could require it to be a condition of annual renewal to provide a tax clearnace/return (like those foreigners that work here). Plus they could also require all banks to provide to them with the financial details of any Expat that they suspect of avoiding taxes. If you have had international deposits totalling over 150K they could request you provide details of what the money came from, and ask why you have not done any tax returns (after 2024). I am not saying this will happen, I am saying it could happen, and it would be wise for all Expats getting overseas money/payments into Thailand (all of us) to carefully consider this matter and watch how things develop over the next year or so. Unlike, say Philippines, where they have a specific tax definition for Expats on long term retirement Visas, Thailand has no 'allowance' for Expats - you are either a tax resident or you are not in Thailand.

Yes and No - and I would recommend avoiding taking such a course of action. How it works is that once they 'look at you', the Thai RD can request all banking details related to yourself be provided to them by the banks and all financial institutions in Thailand. Sure it is no problem until they 'find you' - same for anyone not getting annual renewals - it is all good until caught. But unlike Immigration, the RD will look to take their 'pound of flesh' going back for years, and they will jail you if you dont pay, and then deport you. This is not the west where tax avoidance is a fine and a slap on the wrist - here they send you to jail - to a Thai jail - and you do not want to go there just for a few 10s of thousand baht.

There are two groups of Expats who live in Thailand that do have a 'representative body' - Koreans and Japanese. The Japanese are the biggst group by a long way. Hopefully, one or both of those groups are seeking an 'audience'. Also, there are a lot of Chinese Expats in Thailand - however many of them are the type that they are targetting to stop avoiding taxation in Thailand. It has been tried a few times over the years (getting a 'western' Expat Group together) but being so 'individualistic' we are very hard to organise and coordinate. Unlike the Japanese who take a very 'community' view to things, western Expats tend to want what they want first, and agreement is hard to reach on most subjects. Just look at the bickering that goes on in this forum - and it is always the loudest who complain the most, so most reasonable people just 'walk away'.

There are no 'agents' to get around the rues with Thai RD. like with Immigration. Any disputes/appeals must be in Thai with all documents in English translated and certified. You can lodge a return in English - but those forms provide nowhere to apply DTA details. Yes - you will have to pay a lawyer/accountant if you dont agree with the Thai RD assessment.

I agree. I was thinking of doing a return in 2025 just to see what would happen, but then I realised I was being an idiot. The only and always best strategy in Thailand is to avoid (for as long as possible) dealing with the Thai bureaucracy - there is no chance an Expat will not have to pay.

We all agree. Make me pay income taxes (which most Thais do not) but give me no rights, no services, no status, and require 90 days, TMN30s, annual g=beggings, permnission to leave/re-enter. Well you can kiss my fu.............

Maybe. Maybe not.

You are right in that waiting is our only 'solution'. But although June 2024 is the drop dead date, that does not mean you/I have to leave before that date. As the lawyer advised, it will probably not be until mid-late 2024 that Thai RD will provide the processes and details. Given that March 2025 is when the tax returns are due, and the Thai RD will be VERY busy for the new few months (years?), it would be sometime around March-June 2025 when those who have to decided to leave Dodge must have gotten out. IMO Thai RD will not be chasing Expats who have left the country for small amounts of tax debts - but you better not go back again ????

Not so as far as I know. The DTAs work on a 'tax credit' basis. The tax applied in A is 'credited' against the tax applicable in B. In general the various tax depts in B agree not to apply taxation on certain income from A (pensions etc.). However, as Thailand has never gone down this path before (personal income tax DTAs), and this is going to take a lot of working out. What is needed is for the Thai RD to advise exactly what processes are in place to lodge individual tax returns where DTAs come into account, what documents/proof of tax applied in A is required, and what if those payments in A were 'tax exempt' (like Pensions), and many other 'complications'. Mid-Late 2024 before any/most of that is provided by Thai RD - maybe.

For those interested - I got further replies from that legal/tax firm I have previously mentioned. I should point out that I disagreed with much of what was stated, and I deliberately asked very provocative questions - I think they are shilling for business from Expats worried about this new tax rule/method. They stated that if you are a tax resident in Thailand and received/earn income abroad, then you have to do a tax return and declare that income. They stated that even if it has already been taxed in the home country and there is a DTA, you must still lodge a tax return and declare the income no matter how much is involved. They also stated that it is very likely that at some stage in the future Thai Immigration will get involved with this matter and those Expats without a tax clearance/return will have issues getting their 'annual renewal'. I disagreed and pointed out that according to the Thai RD website you have to complete a tax return IF you have 'taxable income' and are liable to pay income taxes. I pointed out two things: 1. The majority of Thais have never done an annual income tax return (under 150K?); 2. I have no 'taxable income' in Thailand because under the DTA the amount of 'interest' I received in my Super fund in Australia was already taxed in Australia. I pointed out that the 40+ million Thais who earn any income from any job or work, do not complete a taxation return, mainly because they earn less than 150K PA (after deductions, allowances and expenses). I also pointed out that many Expats have bank accounts overseas into which they are paid their pensions and they then transfer them into Thailand from there - immediately or later that week/month. Those banks pay small amounts of interest, just like the Thai banks do to Thais. I asked does that mean all foreigners and Thais are required to complete a tax return and declare that $2-5 in interest earnings? I also stated that because the Age Pension in Australia is listed as 'taxable income' in people's annual tax return statements, does that mean it will be viewed as taxable income by the Thailand RD. I stated that because it is a Govt Payment it is not taxed (it is a 'tax free' payment), even though the amount paid is over the tax free threshold amount in Australia. I asked does that mean every Expat receiving a pension is required to complete a Thailand tax return, will Thai RD view that as taxable income, and how will the DTA be applied to that payment. I also pointed out that there is nowhere on the standard tax return to 'claim' DTA exemptions or how to provide any documents from Aust or what documents are required - so does that mean we will all have to employ a 'tax expert' like yourself to complete our tax returns. Nothing heard back - and I probably never will. IMO the best strategy is to wait and see what deveops during 2024. It will be June 2024 before anyone becomes a tax resident of Thailand, and it will probably be later in 2024 that the Thai RD has provided all the details and processes. A tax return is required to be lodged by end March 2025 - so it will be quite some time after that before the Thai RD starts investigating/chasing people (Thais and Expats). There is lots of time to pack the bags and get out of Dodge if this thing goes sideways.

This, and all the other 'collapses' over the last few years (roadways, airport terminals, this, etc etc etc ) never seem to make it on to the TAT press releases about Amazing Thailand. This is not a country where you can take things like safety for granted.

I started doing some research on that and it looks like it depends on the Super Fund which you are a member of, and what sort of member account you have, and how they are structured. I remember that my old Super Fund said once it was 'converted' to pension I could not bring it back to accumulation. They also said that once you 'convert' any/all of your account to pension, you cannot add any more funds into that account and must put that in your accumulation account or start a new one. The ATO website gives good info and it is free - Superguide wants people to pay for giving their advice - many of their articles/reports require you to join before you can read it. Super | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

No one knows - is it savings and/or is it exempt as it is taxed by Aust - when your balance is still in the accumulation phase. I intend to bring in smaller amounts, rather than 1-2 large amounts. I figure anything over say 250K might get looked at - or maybe 500K? Hate to think that someone who sends over the 800K for the Retirement Visa, could later be required by the Thai RD to advise where that money came from, and to prove that it is not taxable income. Massive can of worms - and no one knows the details.

I agree. However, according to my advice from legal/tax expert, all income earned abroad is potentially taxable in Thailand if you are a tax resident. He also said no one knows the details, and probably wont until some time next year.

There is no way, even at that time of night, that it would take only 30 minutes. That is right through the heart of busy Bangkok - plus of course there would be tolls involved. However, it should still be about 600-700 Baht?

I make that number as 0.5% of the total force (230K). Probably about the same number retire every year I would think. SSDD.

And someone whining about them.

Unfortunately that could happen - based upon the past proven track record of incompetence and idiocy with regards to IT security by Thai organisations.

Good Point. If this goes ahead with RD, and if this happens with Immigration, it will probably be that we will need to provide a taxation certificate to prove we have lodged/paid an income tax return. As if there was not already enough to worry about due to this taxation change - there is potentially more !!

I would not rely on that one experience to say that going forward (if this happens) that this will be dealt with the same by all RD staff for all Expats in all Locations. I would also say that now you have a TIN and have done a 'return', if this is introduced, then you will likely be 'checked out'.

Thanks - I was not aware of that in UK. That is not the case in Australia (compulsory tax returns). I have looked and cannot find anything that says if it is compulsory in Thailand or if it is not. Unfortunately, like you say, those in a position to stay outside Thailnd will do so if this goes ahead and Expats are nailed by the Thai RD based on incoming bank transfers. However, I am not in that position - it is all in or all out. Thai Wife agrees - no way she will allow 'those bast*****' to take my/our money because I get nothing for it. Malaysia or Philippines looks likely options - so we can still cheaply visit Thailand (max 175 days to make sure <180) and other SEAsian countries. Airfares from Australia are very expensive - as is living there which is 3+ times the cost of living in Thailand. And your point about what happened in the UK is the biggest problem in all this - what if I/we are nailed in a few years. Lets say I dont lodge any tax returns for 5 years and then Somchai at the Thai RD wants back taxes and fines - is that possible? and how the hell will I deal with that? Quick exit - if stopped say at airport that I have to go home to attend a funeral - what letter from RD? If this does go ahead then this will be too much - I came here to retire, play golf, travel and enjoy my remaining years. Reporting every 3 months, TM30s when we travel/move, and begging to stay another 12 months IOs every year, is bad enough. But having to deal with the Thai RD every year - and having the threat of fines and jail hanging over my head - not gonna happen. Malaysia or Philippines.