TroubleandGrumpy

I am sure that the Thai RD is working through all the issues and complications that this new 'interpretation' is likely to impose on all tax residents in Thailand - Thais and Foreigners. I am also sure they are not at all looking at AN to get inputs - but on the off chance 'someone' is listening, I am giving this information below. Because I am extremely unhappy about this new potential imposition in Thailand, I have been looking more closely into those countries nearby where they encourage and support Expat retirees living long-term in their country - and spending all/most of their money there. One of the standout countries is Malaysia - there are lots of 'western' Expats in Penang. Obviously there are others, but for this matter I am quoting only Malaysia and how they nadled this change. On 1 January 2022, Malaysia introduced the same 'system' that Thailand is doing as of 1 January 2024. They received lots of feedback, and subsequently the Govt made the following statement: Due to concerns raised by various parties on the possible ramifications of removing the exemption for FSI remitted to Malaysia, the Ministry of Finance (“MoF”) had, on 30 December 2021, announced that this exemption from income tax will be given, by concession, for a period of five (5) years from 1 January 2022 to 31 December 2026 on certain categories of FSI received by the following groups of tax residents: Individuals – All categories of foreign sourced income are exempted. Companies – Foreign sourced dividend income is exempted. What are not taxable? The provisions will only affect gains that are “income” in nature. On this note, foreign source gains that are “capital” in nature will not be subject to tax. Foreign source capital gains should include proceeds from the disposal of foreign stocks, foreign properties, foreign assets, foreign currencies, foreign investment papers, etc, if these assets had been held as long-term investments. As to whether the gains are “income” or “capital” in nature, the onus of proof lies with the Malaysian tax resident based on the facts and circumstances giving rise to the gains. If the remittances are found to be income in nature instead of capital as claimed by the taxpayers, the same shall be subject to income tax. Lets hope that the Thailand Government realises the can of worms that they have opened, and follow the lead of its neighbour Malaysia, and make some clear exemptions, and provide time for this change to be managed by all Thai tax residents. As many posters here have said, the Govt and Thai RD is not doing this to target Expats who bring their money, savings and pensions into Thailand to support thermselves and/or their Thai families. But unfortunately, that is how things do play out whenever a Government makes a change to catch certain people - they also catch others that they were not really after. Malaysia left it until December of the year before the change started - hopefully Thailand will do it a little quicker.

I agree with all that - If I do need to do a tax return in Thailand. Plus I would look for one that knows the DTA betwen Thailand and my home country. There are many legal/accounting firms in Thailand that have a senior person or owner, who is someone from US, UK, Aussie, etc. But before getting to that point of needing a tax lawyer/accountant - there are a few issues that are still awaiting clarification from the Thai RD. If I remit a large amount of money into Thailand (over the 150K tax free threshold), but none of it is income as defined in the Thai Tax Code, am I still required to lodge a tax return. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is a Govt Pension as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Govt controlled Retirement Fund (Superannuation in Australia), as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Savings Account, as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. In other words, does the Thai RD view any/all remittances brought into Thailand by Expats as taxable income, and do I therefore have to lodge a tax return. I am extremely unhappy about having to 'justify' bringing my money into Thailand every year, with the potential of being 'nailed' one year - probably in that year I was silly enough to bring in 5+ million baht to buy a property in Thailand.

Interesting viewpoint - some would even say it is a 'gone Thai feral' view. Rather than throw that all back at you, which would be very easy - how about this viewpoint. We are not Thai Residents or Citizens, we are technically long-stay Tourists. That is why we have to report every 90 days - the max period Tourist Visa is for 90 days. That is why we must request an annual extension of out 'Permission to Stay'. That is why we must apply for a certificate to leave and re-enter under that extended permission to stay. Thailand does not have any "Migrant Visa' - they are all Technically Non-Immigrant Tourist Visas. Therefore I am a tourist and whilst I am happy to pay VAT (and can claim it back if I want to when departing within the initial period), I am not technically liable to pay Income Tax. A few years ago I saw an interview with the then Boss of the Thai Elite Visa office. In response to a technical question about what type of Visa it was, she replied it is technically a Tourist Visa - same as all the others - but with its own terms and conditions. From someone that says it is easy to do a tax return in Thailand, and then in another post says that he has never done one, it seems very strange to me that you feel it is justified for us Expats to pay income taxes. Trust me on this - lodging a tax return in Thailand, where there are international remittances and a DTA involved, is not simple and not easy. I believe that lawyer who told me far more than I believe what you say about it. But to defend the lawyer - he (and all those others quoted in this issue) is obviously 'drumming up business' from Expats.

It looks like it will be very complicated to me - and probably require a lawyer/accountant. Either way, lodging a tax return in Thailand where DTAs are involved will not be - 'done online and is easy enough to do.'

Please tell me Mike - where do you claim DTA exemptions via this 'easy enough to do' online tax return? 080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th) Maybe there is another online tax return system - please advise where that is - I could not find it.

Please see my last post in reply to another guy. It is techncially up to the Thai RD to decide what is and what is not exempted under any DTA - I just hope they dont make us all lodge a return and make the claim (and wait while they decide).

I agree with what you are saying, but technically it is not up to you to make that decision. Only the Thai RD can decide that your pensions are not taxable in Thailand under the Thai/USA DTA. Sure, it should merely be a formality and perhaps a quick contact with Thai RD can give you that assurance and advise you that you dont need to lodge a tax return and make that claim. But who knows what the Govt is going to do about those remittanmces into Thailand by Expats, that are covered under the DTAs and not taxable in Thailand. Maybe they will say 'dont lodge a tax return' - but maybe they will you still have to lodge a tax return and claim exemption/s under the DTA. In the past the Thai RD just did not want to bother with it - lots of work and trouble for them in dealing with Expats, and they knew that the majority of Expat's payments are exempted. But if they are told that we must all lodge returns and claim the exemptions, then they will have no choice.

That is definitely possible - And I thought I was being the worst case scenario ???? I could say that is extremely unlikjely to happen - but who knows.

I agree 100%. Especially wqhen you say dont cut the ties to home country - having a Plan B is essential for any Expats living in Thailand - things can change very quickly and there is very little Expats can do about it - except complain and make a lot of noise ????

Could not have said it any better. But as they say - This Is Thailand - who really knows what they will do. All anyone can do is plan for what they will do in any given situation.

It depends on what you want insurance coverage for. May I suggest that you use a website that gives you comparisons between policies and premiums - and then decide which broker to use. Not all brokers offer policies from all insurers - be aware of that. I would definitely use a broker - going 'direct' means dealing with their head office and/or call centre and that is often no the best. That is why brokers in Thailand are better and cheaper than going direct - the insurance companies dont want all the trouble of dealing with a customer directly. There is a big Expat Club in Chiang Mai - maybe worth talking to them.

We are not the 'targets' - they are after the 'big fish' and we are just 'small fry'. But here is the thing with the taxation 'nets' that they throw out (worldwide) - they 'catch' some small fry in those nets - they dont mean to but they do. Now will Somchai at the local RD Office decide - no worries I let that one go - or will he decide to check further. Remember too - a lot of small fry makes a decent meal. The big fish are very good at avoiding the net. Hopefully they will be 'nice' and clarifiy this matter and give us exemptions - time will tell.

Yes - that is the way to deal with this matter IMO - do workarounds. The key to working around a problem, is to know exactly what the problem/s are and how they will be 'managed'. Once you knwo that then avoiding the problem is a lot easier. Certainly I will be bringing into Thailand before Dec 31 a lot more money than I had planned - because I will not be a tax resident of Thailand in 2023 (just). I was a tax resident for almost 5 years before - but that period is well before this change. I know one guy that is talking of buying a property next year, and is going to be trabsferring over to Thailand this year and in 2024 a heap of money - but he will only be staying in the country for about 170 days next year. Then in 2025 he will be returning full-time - wish I could easily do that - but he has me thinking.

Yes Sheryl that is the case - but exactly which ones are and are not taxable is the issue. Also, when/if you lodge a tax return and say that the DTA means they are exempt, what will the Thai RD need in order to accept that claim - and then what happens if they do not and/or want more proof. I am not really keen to pay income taxes for nothing, but I am also not keen to pay an accountant/lawyer every year to do tax returns. I retired and I dont want to have to go through all that trouble and worry. Easy fix - the Thai RD provides a blanket exemption to long term Expat's pensions and savings brouight into Thailand. The current 'situation' seems to be that all money brought into Thailand could be viewed as taxable income, and therefore each Expat will have to lodge a tax return and claim that it is not taxable - wioth no explanation how to do that or what documents are required and in what form and what is acceptable. Thai Immigration provides the exact details of what documents and information (and money) must be provided for an annual extension 'request' - and yet there is often something new, or changed from last year, or there is a different interpretation by some IO in a bad mood. Hopefully all those details and exemptions and clarifications will be provided before this comes into effect on January 1 2024. This exercise has been very useful on this forum - learning from others and knowing a bit about what needs to be clarified or exempted is a good thing.

Good for you mate. Now do that in 2024, and let me know how that all goes. You remind me of my niece - she refused to wear a helmet on her bike to school - bla bla bla why farang worry - she was just like you. She had an accident one day - in hospital - head injury - all good after a day just headaches for a week or so (no skull fracture - just a lot of blood). I bought her a 'real' helmet and she now wears it every time. Good Luck mate.

So how many Expats do you think are in Thailand and receive either a partial pension or a full pension? If you are right then it means they we will all have to lodge a tax return and claim that under the DTA our pensions are not taxable in Thailand. And what do you recommend we do if the Thai RD decides that I/we are wrong, and/or that the 'evidence' we provided is insufficient, and they decide that I/we must pay income tax? Have you examined the appeals process against a Thai RD decision? I have (planning for worst case) - and it is horrendously difficult - besides being only acceptable in Thai (with multiple and certified translations), it would cost a lot of money hiring an accepotable Thai lawtyer/.accountant to compile and lodge that appeal, and from what I could find, they are extremely reluctant to agree that they were wrong. Plus - what about if the money I bring into Thailand is from multiple sources - how do I or anyone prove that x amount is pension, y amount is savings, z amount is superannuation, etc. If you still cannot see how complicated and difficult this would be for most Expats, then we have nothing to talk about.

Good Luck with that attitude - and I hope you are right. But something tells me you are being overly optimistic - and I am being overly negative. Like I said already several times - I also plan for the worst case, not only the best case. Respectfully, if/when the Thai RD provides all the clarifications and exemptions and definitions that is being requested/demanded by many pundits, then and only then will I seek advice from a tax expert as to what my future course of action should be regarding this change in the income tax rules/method in Thailand. I can tell you this now Mike - Will I be happy to stay in Thailand and pay over 120K per year for 10-15 years for the privilege of being treated as a second class tourist with all the Immigration impositions, reportings, annual beggings, paying extra, and a total lack of rights and no Govt services? NO. I will be happy to stay in Thailand and do an annual tax return (if required for whatever reason) if and only if I am not required to pay income taxes in Thailand (a very small amount would be OK).

Thanks. Could you also provide your view on this statement from that Sherringsa brief:

I hear you - but what do you think about the 1 Million Baht that I transfer over every year? And what about the 5 Million Baht when I buy a property in the near future? IMO I think that they will not be interested in John too - but IMO they could be very interested in me.

True. And neither you. Nor me. But we all do have our opinions. And that is all we have at the moment - opinions. Maybe you know Mike - Question - If a tax resident has no taxable income in Thailand, do they have to lodge a tax return. Question 2 - Does/Will/Can that change under this new tax rule/interpretation.

Yes Jim - that could easily happen to a US Citizen. The USA is different to all other countries - they tax any income earned by a US Citizen anywhere in ther world - unless exception has been applied for. How this tax change in Thailand affects US Citizens going forward will be different for most other Expats from other countries where they accept that their ciitizens can be taxed in other countries. I would say that most US Citizens would be better off than the rest of us following this change - proving you have already been taxed by USA will not be such a burden I believe and will also be accepted easier too I think.

Great points mate. How they do that is that your tax returns are checked - so you have to tell them - it is a voluntary system. But if you dont tell them and they later find out - that itself is a big risk. However, the money you remitted into Thailand you will have to declare that it is savings or whatever, and not income. They can then, if they want to, require you to prove that - they probably wont unless it is a large amount - but who knows how they will manage this change.

You can believe whatever you want Mike - so can I. Read yesterday's and today's BP articles - just for starters.

The Thai RD has not provided any details - Sherring et al can only provide their advice on what they know now. There are plenty of good articles on the web about this matter - including Thai media organisations - it is a concern and they are all seeking clarifications. Hopefully they will provide that sooner rather than later. As some experienced Expats have said, they will probably eventually sort this out. But from what I have seen, the Thai Govt will only change is there is a lot of 'negative feedback' - which this forum is only a small part of.

Ditto - your points made are also often very accurate. However, now you have descended into the 'she'll be right mate" No Problemo Mode. And by all means you can do that - but may I suggest this comment of yours should be examined by yourself in self reflection: " It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait." We must not do anything you say Mike - you give your views - others give theirs - and people make up their own minds. Maybe I am wrong - but I have never told anyone what they MUST do - only what I think might happen and why I think that might happen. What I always have done and always will do, is plan for worst case and best case scenarios. IMO anyone that only plans for best case scenarios and rubbishes those that dont, is like someone not wearing a helmet riding a bike in Thailand. It is up to you, and I hope it all goes well for you, but IMO that is unwise - because if something goes wrong, it could go very wrong.