TroubleandGrumpy

Because some of us are 'dug in' and some have a Thai partner and some with kids etc etc etc.

With individual experts who are specialists in the DTA for each home country. They are all very different.

I agree that due to DTAs it should be a non-issue for many people. But that does not mean that it will not become and issue. There is a legal brief vid on youtube where an American lawyer explains that a DTA is an agreement, and both side to that agreement may and do often have a different interpretation of what the words therein mean. There are no guarantees either way.

I have stopped work, but I have not converted my Super to Retirement Phase. Therefore all earnings made by my Super Fund are taxed at 15%, before distribution to its members who like me have their money in the Accumulation Phase. I did not convert my Super Funds to the Retirement Phase for two reasons. Number One - both the Government, the Super Funds, and a lot of 'Advisers' were saying that people should convert to Retirement Phase because their money in Super does not then get taxed. I have been in and around Government and large corporate organisations for a long time, and they never do anything that is not in their own best interests - especially the Government - so I checked out the details and once I had done that the decision I made was not to do it (see 2). Number Two - once you 'convert' your Super to Retirement Phase, it is classified as an income - by Centrelink, ATO and all other Govt Depts. Additionally, once it is converted, you cannot go back to Accumulation Phase. I can stay in Accumulation Phase until I am 75 - and that is my plan. And (of course) I have a few plans for what to do after that time - but it is quite a few years away yet - things will change and meanhile I am staying across all the changes in Super rules.

I have absolutely no argument with what you have said - and it is your right to view this matter in anyway that you decide. But I/we are certainly not 'fearmongering' - we are discussing the issues involved, saying what we believe they mean, and sharing thoughts on what might happen, and giving our ideas on how to manage the probable scenarios that might develop. There is absolutely no certainties in this matter at this time - there is only possibilities and probabilities - and both informed and uninformed opinions. Having said that I will respond a little to those listed items that you said the Thai RD will need to have in order to 'come knocking on the door'. The Thai RD (any Tax Dept) does not do that as a matter of course, and then send you a detailed summary of your tax bill. How it works, in varying degrees, is that the Tax Dept is informed or finds out or notices (large bank deposit/s over a year etc etc etc) that someone might be avoiding their taxation obligations. First Step - are they liable to pay taxation. In Thailand that means resident for 180 days and if you are a non-immigrant Visa holder then it will be assumed you are - you will have to prove you were not in Thailand for 180 days or more - you will have to prove that - they will only have to prove you are a tax resident if goes to a Court as step one of the formal/legal process. Second Step - check if the person has they lodged an annual taxation return (for this exercise the answer is no). If they have, then check that return against whatever information they have that instigated the check. Third Step - if there appears to be a problem, do more detailed checking (what that is in Thailand we have no idea - it will probably be just check out your bank details over the year - maybe more). Fourth Step - decide whether to send you a letter asking why you did not file a tax return (or did it incorrectly), and maybe ask you to come and visit them. That is what the term 'knocking on your door' means - sorry if you thought that was meant literally. Although that might happen if they get no response from you.

As I just found out - Day 180 is 28th June 2024. Therefore if anyones leaves to avoid this tax khrapp they have to leave on or before 27th June 2024.

You are right - I counted them myself and 1Jan to 30June is 182 days. Thanks for the advice - never knew they did that. Therefore 180 days is 28th June 2024 Also noted that February 2024 is 29 days - Leap Year.

Agree. However, it is unlikely to be sorted out by either in less than 3 months. Hopefully it will be 'delayed' due to 'implementation issues'. Maybe it will then die and go away quietly - like one of those 'Global Hubs' we keep hearing about.

There are many opinions on that issue, but it does appear to me that tax is 'liable' on any income earned overseas in 2024 if you are a tax resident in 2024 - subject to all the exemptions and dediuctions and any DTAs in place between Thailand and the country where that income is earned. How and when that tax liability will be applied is very uncertain - immediately or only when the money is remitted back into Thailand. Under the old way they only taxed income brought into Thailand in the year it was earned. Nopw it is 'taxable income' in any year earned (2024 onwards). IMO it will be applied when the money is brought into Thailand, because that money overseas could/should be subject to local taxation.

No one knows - not even the tax experts.

Yes that is the interpretation I agree with - it will be based upon self-declaration. Privacy laws do not exist in Thailand - in practice (same as riding a bike without a helmet is illegal). IMO the 'wise' way to deal with this issue is not to do anything that could come back and bite you very hard in a year or two or five. What I am doing is finding out as much as I can about exactly what is happenning, how the Thai RD will apply this change, and how that will affect me personally. That includes getting and giving thoughts and opinions on this forum, checking Thai RD website and many others, and when the time is right, getting advice. This is what I have so far: I am going to be a tax resident if I am still in Thailand on 29th June 2024. The new change/rules will affect me personally. Thailand and Australia have a DTA and the pension I receive is excluded from Taxation by Thailand. Under that same DTA the other money I bring into Thailand has already been taxed and is also exempt. However I have no idea how the Thai RD will decide if the money I bring in is taxable in Thailand or not. And I have no idea how and in what form the Thai RD would require 'proof' that I have already paid taxes in Australia on the money I bring into Thailand. What I do know is that just because Thai/Aust have a DTA will not mean that any money from there will be automatically viewed as having been taxed. Obviously because those 61 DTA countries would become the countries where those avoiding Thai taxation would invest their money and pay no taxes. What I am also very very confident about is that this will be a cluster (#) and Thai RD will screw it up. What I plan to do, if it looks like this will be a viable strategy, is to have everything sorted and filed and ready. I will not be completing a Thai Tax Return in 2025 - because I believe that I have no taxable income in Thailand. If/when I am asked by the Thai RD why I have not done one (or they just send me a taxation bill), I will send them the documents etc. that I have alrerady sorted and filed through a taxation expert/accountant. Another option is to pay a taxation expert to lodge my tax returns - but IMO in the the first few years of all this, that would be as unwise as sticking my head up lighting up a cigarette at night in the WW1 trenches.

180 Days From January 1, 2024 - Convert Dates (convert-dates.com) According to that and several others (and my Outlook Calendar) the 180th day from January1 is June29th 2024

More than 180 days (in total) is the official directive. Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Yes you are right. 180 days from Jan 1 2024 is June 29th 2024. That is the deadline date ????

How it works is as follows. Anyone who lives in Thailand for a total period of at least 180 days is a tax resident of Thailand. The new rules/interpretation starts from January 1 2024. Under this new rule/interpretation if you stay full-time from Jan 1 2024 to June 30 2024 you will be a tax resident (having stayed for 180 days) and the new rule/interpretation will apply to any income you have generated anywhere in the world. There are many unanswered questions including the one that directly relates to what I wrote above - "Is that 'tax payable' applicable when I bring that income into Thailand, or is it applicable even if I do not bring that income into Thailand'.

You and I and many others think the same - I will be avoiding paying any taxes in Thailand, mainly because I get absolutely nothing for them. IMO what little I do get, is more than paid for by the amount of VAT I pay, which is well above what most Thais pay (and most Thais do not pay income tax either). If they created a new category for long-tern Visa holders, and I was no longer subjected to all the 90 days, TM30s, Annual begging, etc etc., and I was provided with the same rights and services as Thais are - then I would be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand. When we lived in Australia for a few years my Thai wife was required to pay income taxes. BUT she got what I asked for above - none of the Immigration khrapp and full rights and all services (including free hospitals and subsidised medinies).

Not sure if anyone has already answered - like you I am going throiugh them again today - waiting for the Rider Cup to start. The Thai DTAs are an Agreement (not Law). Thai RD is not skilled in understanding all the DTAs it has with 61 countries. There is no clear directive from Thai RD on how to prove money in another country has been taxed. There is no clear advice from my home country about how I would go about giving proof to Thailand RD.

I agee with most of what you are saying, but I will also point out that what you are saying is exactly why so many of us are very concerned. The Thai RD is not well organised, efficient or rational - they will have a lot of trouble implementing this new rule - which means they will screw it all up - and I certainly do not want to be in the position of being 'in their sights' during the first year or two of this change. They are going to be severely under pressure to 'get more tax money' and theu will be like a nasty IO on steroids. If you think they will have the time or inclination to patiently listen to your/my pleas that our 'income' (money transferred into Thailand and reported by the bank/s to them) is either exempt from taxation, or not subject to taxation under DTA, or any others claims you/I make, then you are very very mistaken. Added to that is the potential that even if you/I start under the horizon for a year or two, the Thai RD will come knocking so to speak. When it comes to all taxation departments, they have 3 main functions - they have many but 3 main ones. 1. Processing the taxation returns given to them; 2. Providing advice and directives in regards to taxation related definitions and interpretations; 3. Investigating individuals and organisations that may have avoided taxes (now and in the past). They are 3 different groups of people and you do not want to be 'targette' by group 3 staff, and I cannot imagine that in Thailand they would be as 'reasonable or skilled' as those in my home country.

June 30 2024 becomes the deadline if you stayed in Thailand since Jan 1 2024 - you are then a tax resident of Thailand for 2024. That is the date I will be researching towards and planning about. Will I still be here because it is all OK; or will I be gone before then; or will I wait and see how it goes year 1.

Never thought of that - you devious bugger ???? I bet that the scammers are already working through how to pretend to be Thai RD Officers, and that the calls and Facebook Posts will start early next year. Most Expats are too experienced to get caught - but the local Thais will be a target - especially since the majority of them have never paid income tax and would not know what a tax retrun is.

The 180+ days is already done and dusted - you become a tax resdient of Thailand if you stay longer (in total) in any calendar year. I am still waiting their answers to that and a few other questions I asked. I think someone in the office did closely examine what words they were using - not a good thing for a legal/tax organisation. And I bet the only reply I will get is 'each poerson is different, you need to come in and speak to us (for a fee)'.

Yes - the firm's interprtation of the statement was 'earned income' irrespective of whether remitted or not. In the past (Thai RD decision) it was only 'taxable income' if/when it was remitted into Thailand in the same year that it was earned. Now it is taxable income whether remitted or not in the same year. The big question, as asked by another poster is (changed to mean exact) - 'does this mean only income earned overseas after Jan 1 2024, or can they go backwards into the past?'. My read is that it only applies to income earned from Jan 1 2024 onwards when this new interpretation started. However who knows how Somchai will decide. Yes it is - and that is just one of the many current contradictions - the Thai RD have a lot of work to examione all the ramifications and provide detailed advice in order to get this right. 3 months means they aint gonna get it right - maybe a year or two I would say. I asked - they have not answered.

As I indicated to another this was in an email from a legal firm in Isaan to all of its clients (I used them mnay years ago). As with all their legal advice/direction it is private and not for general public etc etc bla bla. As I replied to another member - it was not one of the big legal/tax firms in Bangkok.

I agree with your logic - and I also believe that this is 'probably' a misunderstanding - thus the reason I provided all those caveats with the firm's statement in my post. They have still not answered me. However, it is a legal/tax firm that has been in business for many years. If they can get it wrong and misunderstand things (whoever wrote the release) then there is also a likelihood that Somchai in the local Isaan That RD Office will too. I have found the 2023 Thai RD Tax Form and Guide - and (so far) I have not found anything in there that provides the details about income for foreigners from overseas Pensions and Savings remitted into Thailand. 080966Ins94.pdf (rd.go.th) 080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th) Still no info from the Thai RD rtegarding this matter - maybe this year? Home | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

I agree 100%. I/you/we do not need to do anything until end June 2024 - that is when the deadline hits and those in Thailand since Jan 1 will become tax residents for 2024 calendar year. Hopefully our issues and concerns will be answered well before then - obviously not directly - but that the Thai RD will have advised the tax experts and public about how they will implement this new rule. Meanwhile I am bringing in a little extra over the next few months - but not in any big lump.