TroubleandGrumpy

Yes it is 180 days - iun total during any calendar year. No one can answer those specific questions - no one knows - yet. It starts Jan 1 2024 - before 30 June 2024 when the 180 days applies, we will have all those answers and a lot more - or we will be leaving Thailand.

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else. Thailand will not be able to tax Americans on any monies transferred to Thailand under their DTA, and the US Tax Dept will be responding very strongly if they attempt to do so. USA is the only country in the world (AFAIK) that does this and gets away with it worldwide.

Good questions - and I wish that the Thai Govt would count the number of us all. If they did then they would realise that we are worth a large amount of money to them. Meanwhile TAT counts every day-visitor who walks over the borders as a tourist and the Thai Govt believes their lies. My estimate is that about 50-100K would fall into those categories you gave - but that is just a guess. I do know that there are a lot of Expats with money living in Thailand that bring over more than 1 Million Baht each year - especially those that buy a proeprty or a new car.

The Malaysian 'retirement' packages are good - they cost a little money and are not for the cheap Charlies living only on a pension, but as a mate told me years ago, that is a good thing. Take a look at Penang - it has been recommended by many and it is the place we are currently looking at - as well as other countries nearby. One of the great thigns about the Malaysian packages is that they are 'Govt guranteed' and none of the conditions can be changed - they have been in place for over 10 years and are well proven. When I compare that to the khrapp Thailand has done to me since 2012, Malaysia is a clear winner in that regards. The Thai wife is adamant that she/I will not be taxed on the 1 million+ Baht money I bring into Thailand every year - and she is also adamant that if they impose mandatory rip-off health insurance then we will leave. If either of those things happen, we will leave and live 'nearby' so that we can easily visit - but never for more than 6 months of the year. Our plan was to base ourselves in Thailand and travel - now it looks like we will be based somewhere else, and Thailand will become one of the places where we will visit.

Excellent article - well written and thoughtful. BUT I believe that this will get zero airtime within the new Govt/PM because IMO who/what they are really after, is all the corrupt foreigners (Mafia), especially the Chinese ones, that have infiltrated Thailand under the Junta's watch using LTR, Elite and other Visas. Unfortunately, it appears that unless specifically excluded, many of us retired and/or married Expats will be caught up in this 'crackdown'. Those holders of LTR and Elite Visas who paid big bucks on the promise of a 'zero income tax' arrangement, are about to be screwed over. I say unfortunately, because in order to apply those screws, they have to be applied across all 'foreigners' living in Thailand. The article points out that there are an estimated 300K of 'well off' Expats living in Thailand as either retired or married, plus another 150K well off Expats who are working here - they excluded the 1-2 million? poorer temp workers and illegals from Myamar Cambodia etc. The article suggests that if this income tax is applied as it looks like it will be, then many of those Expats will leave Thailand, and that far less will decide to retire/move to Thailand in future. While othger countries are trying to attract retirees to live there, Thailand is continuing to do things that will drive us out, and keep others away. 300K times 1 Million Baht on average per year for each Expat totals 300 Billion Baht. I wonder if the Thai Govt/PM will listen to the fact that much of that money could be leaving Thailand soon, and also that it will not be coming back in every year. I also wonder if the Thai Govt/PM realises that (according to TAT) 300 Billion Baht equals 6 Million Tourists. Even if you halve those numbers it still totals 150 Billion Baht or 3 Million Tourists. I wonder if they have said to themselves - 300K Expats times 150K each in income tax, equals 45 Billion in taxation revenue - Dee Mak Mak Chai Chai ????. Actually, I would not be surprised - Thai (ill)logic never ceases to amaze me.

Very true and there are many other potential problems with what has been done by this new PM who is desperately in need of taxation money following a decade of the Junta 'deplenishing' the piggy bank. If anyone still thinks this is not a potentially very serious problem, then they need to read below. This is from the 2022/23 Thailand Taxation booklet provided by @MartinL: Assessable Income Residents and non-residents are taxed on their assessable income derived from employment or business carried on in Thailand, regardless of whether the income is paid in or outside Thailand. Residents who derive income from outside Thailand will be subject to tax only where the income is remitted into Thailand in the year in which it is derived IMO that last sentance will be changed in the Taxation Booklet for 2024/25 into something like this - Residents who derive income from outside Thailand will be subject to tax only where when the income is remitted into Thailand in irrespective of the year in which it is derived. IMO is was under the current 'directive' that money being brought into Thailand by long-term Expats was not considered to be 'taxable income'. The change to the current directive announced by the PM, will mean that money being transferred into Thailand by Expats is potentially 'taxable income'. What will be considered taxable income by Thai RD, and what will not, in regards to Expat remittances into Thailand, is yet to be seen. As I have said before, IMO anyone who gets a Govt Pension from one of the 61 DTA countries, should be fine. But anyone who transfers over to Thailand money from their savings/investments overseas, is potentially now going to have to deal with that money being declared taxable income by Thai RD. For those unaware, having taxable income does not mean you will have to pay tax. There are a lot of matters that then come into consideration before 'taxable income' becomes 'tax payable'. Until we see more details, and until clarifications are made, we do not know for sure which way this will go. To all those that think it absolutely will not go the 'bad' way, I certainly hope that you are right. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue to reasses things as they develop, while making alternative plans regarding how to avoid this taxation problem - including not living in Thailand, or only staying in Thailand for 179 days maximum in any calendar year.

What is sad about many Thais (and TAT) is that they would love to see that in Thailand - especially those that have businesses there - making money is too much in their minds. Many Thais dont seem to think about the downsides of what they do - that is the problem in living 'up to me and only now'. Those 2 poor tourists killed by a Thai driving a boat through a restricted area is just one of millions of examples every day here. I wont say what I would do to him if it was my kids that he killed being a selfish self-centred (rear end hole).

Taj Mahal makes Phuket in peak season look like an outback town in Australia. It took over 6 hours to get there (200Ks) and over 7 hours to get back (New Delhi). And when we got there it was an absolute (insert swear)ing disaster - worst day ever in India. Never Ever go there - just look at the pictures freely available on the web. India is not massively over-crowded with tourists - if you ever go there you'll soon know why. But it is massively totally utterly over-crowded with Indian people. What is unbelievable is that they are generally happy and very nice people. Until you play them at cricket ????

Yeh mate - I still need it - a lot ????

Then dont play golf mate.

Me three.

Phuket is an island that gets (at peak) 9 million tourists a year, against an official local population of 400K so this assessment is wrong. The itnerant population of workers during the high season would be 2-3 times the number of locals. But - it is massively over-rated and over-priced and corrupt - which makes it somewhere that people who know, dont go (again). I aint going again - ever.

So they will exempt LTR holders, but the will tax the retired and married Visa holders? Surely that would not be a rational or fair approach to take. Yes Shirley - TiT - welcome to LOS - now you pay taxes please. No - you Farang get zero Govt services or benefits - you are not Thai. Yes - 90 day reports, 12 months extensions, no legal rights, deported at any time. But pay up anyway, unless you are wealthy and can give us lots of money to buy a 10 year Visa. My wife hates this Government more than she did the Junta.

Yes and No ????

Yep - it looks like it will be clusterpharkk for many of us that do 'technically' earn income from our assets overseas, that will make dealing with Immigration like a walk in the park. As I have said before, I will watch and wait until June 2024, and then find out if/what is likely to happen, and then make a decision. It is all a pain obviously, but the one thing that very very seriously worries me, is that if I decide that I dont need to complete a tax return because I have no 'taxable income', then what will happen in 8-10 years if I get 'called out' by the Thai RD and handed a taxation bill based on X Million Baht being brought into Thailand, plus additional fines for not having done previous tax returns. That will be a nightmare that do not want to live with hanging over my head. Many years ago I knew a bloke who had certain 'iffy' financial arrangements for nearly 10 years. His first mistake was doing what he did, and his second mistake was telling others about it (I thionk somone dobbed him in). Anyway, he was nailed to the cross and lost his house and his 'investments' - the wife eventually left him bla bla bla. He eventually moved to another city and 'started again' in his late 40s. That is what I fear the most. Doing an annual 'fight' with the Thai RD is one thing, but not doing annual returns and then having the Thai RD tear me a new one in 8-10 years time, is a huge worry. June 2024 - should I stay or should I go. For those unaware the photos used by the Clash on their hit song, were actually done in Bangkok.

Technically you are (wrong) but it is a matter of semantics. A Visa allows you to enter a country (if approved) and each Visa gives you 'permission to stay' in that country for a specific period of time. What can be extended is your 'permission to stay' in Thailand.

AND gives us legal rights, no dual-pricing, and not require us to report every 3 months and extend our stay in the KIngdom every 12 months - then I will also think about it. If they treat me like they do all Thai citizens, including the majority who pay zero income tax, then I will be happy to pay income tax in Thailand (maybe).

I am even more convinced that this could be a 'game changer' after just catching up on the latest comments, especially the problems the Expat has, who is already dealing with the RD, and who only has a pension. I dont mind accepting that I am a Thai tax resident and therefore liable to taxes, because based on my calculations the taxes I pay in Australia will be more than applicable in Thailand. But, the probability I will need for a PIN in order to do an annual extension, and the RD Dept is going to manage this 'new' situation, is probably going to be a massive problem for me/us living in Thailand. I have never put into my 'planning' that I will have to be dealing with the Thai RD and/or Immigration regarding personal taxation. And as many have said - just because I have no tax liability does not mean that the Thai RD will accept that. If this goes forward and Expats are taxed based on the money they bring into Thailand (aside from Govt Pensions which I believe will be OK), and the only way to avoid that tax is to 'prove' to the Thai RD that it has already been taxed in Australia - then we will not be living in Thailand. Added to that is the concern that every annual extension is going to require a PIN be rpovided plus proof of an annual tax return. If this goes ahead as it does appear that it will (there has been no Thai Govt statement saying it will not tax non-working Expats) then we will be leaving Thailand and taking all our money here. From now, I will only be bringing into Thailand the absolute minimum needed, which means my plans to buy a new car and house in the next few years is gone. I will be watching closely how this pans out until June 2024 - which is when I would be classified as a Tax Resident for the tax year 2024. Maybe, just maybe, I will do a 'trial run' in early 2025 to see how it goes. But if by June it is clear that Expats are expected to pay income taxes on any incoming transfers (besides Govt Pensions), and I will have to prove tax has already been paid on every transfer, and the ability to provide proof against that claim by RD will be as expected (ridiculous and impossible like the non-Thai health insurance for an O-A Visa), then we are 'OUT OF HERE'.

Yep lets hope so - and additional 190K (340K tax exempt) changes it quite a bit. Most pensions will be exmept - all the county's DTA I looked at excluded pensions. Thanks for letting me know about the typo.

Thai tax payable on 65K per month (980K PA) is about 70K Baht. Unlike Singapore where their bureaucrats are a lot better educated and trained (not saying they are great), in Thailand they are often under-educated and very badly 'trained'. If the Thai Govt was to continue down this path (becoming like Singapore in taxation enforcement), but expect that to happen with the same RD staff and systems (which they would), then it will be a disaster., not just for Expats but for any Investors. And if anyone thinks MFP would be any better, IMO they would be worse. MFP have the clear intention to introduce a social welfare system in Thailand, and they will be needing a massive increase in taxation revenue to pay for that.

I am the same - as is any Expat tax resident who has savings or investments in their home country and brings money into Thailand. Those Expats who only receive a Govt Pension will not be targetted. My investments are taxed in Australia, and it is close but I have calcuated I would not owe money to Thailand on a year by year basis. But the problem will be proving that to Somchai at RD - my investments are taxed at the Super Fund level - not on an account by account basis - how would I prove it is taxed? For those who think a DTA solves the problem for you - Wrong. What a DTA means is that Thailand and the other 61 countries have agreed not to double tax each others citizens/tax residents - it does not mean one cannot tax the other's. How it works is that if you have paid taxes on earnings in your home country already, that means you have 'credits' for that paid amount against taxes applicable in Thailand. That is why the Thai RD has avoided getting into this area for all Expats - there is a lot of work involved because each DTA is different in both it's application and subsequent specific decisions. This new interpretation - taxing incoming remittances based on previous years earnings that are not taxed - is meant to cover Thais and other tax residents who have been sending money overseas ('seasoned') and then bringing it back years later with no taxes applicable. That is the Govt's intention - but the concerns we all have is how it will actually be implemented - and how the local Somchais (RD Officers) will interpret this directive.

I agree - there is no solution to this issue, and the wise thing to do until it ever is solved (unlikely) is to keep a low profile and not draw the attention of the Thai RD by making any single large transfers into Thailand. I figure bringing in up to 400K at a time should be 'safe', because rather than getting the banks to total up what every tax resident brings into the country between Jan 1 and Dec31, they will 'notice' any large transfers and then request the bank to provide that person's total over the year. But that is logic and TiT - so who knows what they will do. Hopefully they will just put all non-immigrant tax residents in the 'too hard' basket, unless we bring in a large amount of money in any one year. But if that did that, surely they would realise that will stop us all from buying a property in Thailand. But - TiT. I will be watching what happens in 2024 and take notice if any Expat on a long-stay non-immigrant retired/married Visa is 'nailed' - I will then make a decison what to do going forward.

Good point - anyone on a Government Pension/Payment and that has a bank account or property in Thailand should make sure this is known to the relevant authority in their home country.

If I may put this here - this is my situation in the matter - and this might be relevant to other Aussies (and others) in a similar situation. I am a tax resident of Thailand, because I am here over 180 days every year. Therefore I am liable to pay income tax on any money earned overseas, anywhere in the world. I am also a tax resident of Australia, because I am a Citizen and have money in a Superanuation Fund that is taxed by the Australian Tax Office (ATO). My Age Pension (in fact any Government payment) is specifically excluded from being taxed by Thailand, in the Tax Agreement (TA) between the two countries. And in every other with other countries that I looked at randomly, Governmment payments are not taxable in Thailand. I would check that out for yours. Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) In addition to the Pension, I have before, and will in the future, take some funds out and place that in an Aust bank account, and then transfer that to my bank account in Thailand. That is the concern, because 'technically' the interest earned in my Super Fund is 'assessable income' for tax purposes - when it is remitted to Thailand. My 'technical' tax obligation to Thailand under the TA requires that it applies to the interest earned, and that the tax that I paid to the Australian Tax Office for that, is offset against what tax could be applied in Thailand. Aust Super Funds do not pay earned interest on an individual level, it is done across the whole Fund ($Billions). The Fund pays the applicable tax to the ATO, and then puts any 'earnings' after the tax is applied, back into everyone's account. They calculate and pay tax on the Fund level, and whatever is left over (or under like in the GFC) is credited or debited againsat each Member's account based on their percentage share of the Fund. As you can imagine explaining all that to Somchai the local RF Officer, and providing him with written proof that he would accept, will be impossible. But having said all that khrapp, the question becomes when will the Thai RD know I personally have remitted taxable money into Thailand? Are they going to look at every bank transfer of every tax resident in Thailand? No! IMO what the Thai Govt will do is require the banks to advise them of any incoming transfer amount over X Baht, and to advise them of any single person who has transferred over Y Baht into Thailand in any year. Who knows what those amounts will be - 500K and 1 Million? 1 million and 5 million? Either way, that is the key IMO to dealing with this. Find out those numbers and then keep transfers below the amounts that will draw the attention of the Thai RD. I have calculated that the tax already paid in Australia is higher than the amount that would be taxed in Thailand, and therefore I do not need to lodge a tax return. If I got that wrong, I am so sorry. Will I be ever be audited and in 2030 asked to pay back taxes - I very much doubt it as the funds involved would not be worth their time. However, it could still happen, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. It definitely makes me even more reluctant to buy a property in Thailand.

Ditto - I joined to 'get involved' because of this issue. I have always looked here and there for information, but this one got me going. And I must say guys - I have received a lot of good information - some irrelevant, some wrong, some correct, and some very pertinent to me - but mostly it has been information that I need to think about and check out further. Cheers.