TroubleandGrumpy

Years ago they started a 'campaign' and people who had spent one day in a hotel were being fined when the Hotel did not submit the TM30, and again when they did not do the TM28 or TM30 when they got back home.

Australian pensions are not taxed in Thailand under the Double Taxed Agreement Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) The USA DTA is different from all other countries because of the USA requirement that most US citizens report and pay taxes to USA wherever they are living/working and earning that income.

You are right - but - when a Govt Dept starts a process to do something (go after wealthy Thais) they will throw a 'wide net'. The issue is that they have no control over who they 'catch' in that net. They cannot legally just pick a list of wealthy Thais and start investigating them - they have to appear in their 'net' - and then they can investigate. Will they ignore any of us caught in the net (too small - throw back) - hopefully they will. Avoiding taxation problems does not require ignoring them, and assuming they will not apply. I have found that over the years the best way is as follows. 1. Learn exactly what the rules/regs are and how they could apply to you (or pay someone to tell you). 2. Learn exactly how the Revenue Dept is going to catch people (or pay someone to tell you). Then you take actions to mitigate or avoid both 1 and 2 - or do what the expert says. The wealthy and rich pay good money to tax experts to do that for them. We could pay a tax expert to do it - or we can do it ourselves. If I was in Australia I would talk to one of the many accountants availble to ordinary people. But in Thailand all the good tax experts are going to be busy for a while.

Yes you are right - and it is one of the reasons why the Thai RD has not previously enforced this requirement. One guy said he went into his local Office of the RD and asked how he can do his personal income tax returns. They went 'Mai Mai' and he was told to 'go away'. It is too hard to do in Thailand - it requires accountants and a business etc. -The Thjai RD personal income tax systems and processes are not setup for this - too hard. And you are VERY right about no one knowing how they will implement this - they (RD) dont know. They are not prepared at all and it would probably take them 2 years to get their systems and processes right - and even then they will screw it up. Remember when they decided to 'enforce' TM30/TM28 laws? After several months they finally backed down and stopped it following the massive backlash from Expats. But no one who got caught and paid the 900 Baht fines was ever refunded, and none received an apology.

I would say a bit of both - it is all good until the dog wakes up and sees you ???? But I tend to agree that it will soon be sorted out one way or the other - I just hope it is soon. Meanwhiloe I will look into it all and see what impacts it would have if it did affect me - so far it is not good for me. I have investments in Australia that make earnings/income and technically I am liable to pay income tax on that to Thailand - depending on the tax agreement between Australia and Thailand as to who gets the first 'go at it'.

There are a lot of ways to avoid being required to pay liable taxes - including those you mention and others like using ATMs. But if 'caught' one day in the future, and they start an investigation, it can all be backdated.

That is correct, but I will point out that as a tax resident of Thailand you could be liable for tax on money/income earned overseas, and it is very much subject to whatever tax agreement exists between the 2 countries. US Citizens are different - they are obliged to pay income tax to USA on any earnings/income they make anywhere in the world. The USA is the only country that I know that gets away with that.

Sorry - Wrong. How it works is that if you have paid tax in your home country, you have 'credits' to offset any taxes applicable in Thailand. Depending on the amount involved and how it was taxed at home, you can have 'credits' that completely cover the applicable Thai taxes, or you can still have to pay the balance of the tax debt to the Thailand Revenue Dept. That is very detailed and complex and hopefully the Thailand RD does not go down that path when this is implemented. Hopefully the Thai Govt will issue a blanket exemption for those countries it has a tax agreement with, and declares that any income earned overseas in those countries on funds that were never in Thailand is exempt from being assessable income. That is the rational and practical way to do this - but Thailand tends to do things their own way. Until they make it clear what is assessable and what is not (if they ever do), we are all in the dark. They might just go ahead and see what happens, and then deal with the outcomes - remember when they started fining Expats 900 Baht a day when the hotel did not submit a TM30? That was eventually pulled back (even though it is the Law), but those who were fined never got their money back (or an apology).

Nail on the head hit - again. That is exactly the reason why so many of us are worried - how will it be implemented on Expats. Thai public servants do not have a history of rational interpretation or implementation of any rules affecting Expats. And their standard of proof, is both arbitrary and ridiculous, as you have clearly conveyed. And I would add this to your list/summary. Unlike issues with Immigration or Offices or anyone in the Thai Bureaucracy that are a 'one off' situation, being audited about taxes due is something that can be backdated. You can get away with not wearing a helmet for years, and if you are caught it is a fine on the spot. But if they 'catch' you in taxation issues, they will go back as far as they can. Meanwhile your passport will likely be held so you cant leave, you then get hit with back taxes and huge fines, and then you are deported for a criminal offence. I know - worst case scenario. But I always wear a helmet not because I might get caught, but because I might have an accident - worst case scenario.

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) 1.Taxable Person Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

They already have and it starts on January 1 2024. From that date onwards Thailand will be exchanging financial information on all tax residents with all signatory countries. They will give them your details and financial information in Thailand, and your home country (and others) will give Thailand your details and financial information there. As stated by one taxation expert - the days of easy living long term in Thailand and not having to even think about taxation issues is coming to an end. He reckons it is likely that all annual renewals sometime from 2024 onwards, will require a TIN to be provided.

Thanks mate. Everyone should watch the first 20 minutes at least - this could be huge. Remember - forwarned means you can be forarmed (prepared). This is IMO one of those situations where you should prepare for the worst, middle and best outcomes. I will be bringing in about 1 million baht each year, and that means I will pay 70,000 Baht in VAT. That IMO is enough tax paid by me - I get none of the Govt services that Thais do for free. The big issue is how will this affect me - paying another 10-20K PA would be acceptable - another 100K PA NOT. It starts Jan 1 2024 so therefore I can stay living in Thailand until end June 2024, before you are officially a tax resident. I will be watching this issue very closely and deciding before June 2024 what course I will take - leave or stay.

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) 1.Taxable Person Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand. This below is the 'big one' and what worries me because of 'Thai Interpretation' by Thai Government Employees of the Rules and Regulations (example - Immigration Officers from Provice to Province). Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows : income from personal services rendered to employers; income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered; income from goodwill, copyright, franchise, other rights, annuity or income in the nature of yearly payments derived from a will or any other juristic Act or judgment of the Court; income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings; income from letting of property and from breaches of contracts, installment sales or hire-purchase contracts; income from liberal professions; income from construction and other contracts of work; income from business, commerce, agriculture, industry, transport or any other activity not specified earlier. I cannot find anything on the Thai Revenue Department website that specifically covers foreign sourced funds, and when they are or are not assessable income. Until the Thai Govt clearly states that the funds I bring into Thailand from my personal savings/investments in Australia are not subject to their taxation obligations, because they were already taxed or tax exempt in Australia, then this is a problem that I need to plan for going ahead as an Expat living in Thailand. It would be impossible for me to prove, to the satisfacytion of an arrogant Thai Revenue Officer who is being poushed to 'get more money', that my super fund has taxed my earnings - the taxes are paid across the whole fund, not at the individual account level.

Thailand Tax Rates - on total 'taxable income' from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Taxable Income (Baht) Tax rate % 1-150,000 Exempt 150,001-300,000 5% 300,001-500,000 10% 500,001-750,000 15% 750,001-1,000,000 20% 1,000,001-2,000,000 25% 2,000,001-5,000,000 30% 5,000,001 and over 35%

That makes sense - but that does not mean that it will happen that way (TiT). At the very least the Thai Govt will instruct the Thai Banks to ensure that they report all foreign sourced deposits (probably over an arbitrary amount) much more rigorously than they did in the past. But as I said, the Thai Govt may instruct the banks to be much more 'proactive' and to get involved in the process of identifying foreign deposits that may be subject to taxation under the revised interpretations from 1 Jan 2024. You could be right - I hope so - but there is no details yet provided either way, and it still does not mean I do not have potential tax issues in Thailand. Until they clarify all the details (like this one), I am going to look for the potential problems and stay acropss the matter, and be open to all potential problems people mention - then when the time is right I will seek professional advice, before making my decision (leave or stay). To me it is a game changer - if I have tax liabilities in Thailand on my private funds from supoerannuation investments in Australia being brought into Thailand, then we are out of here.

Jumping in on this issue and raising a related one - it seems to me getting and providing a Tax ID number to their Thai Bank/s might be a wise thing to do for an Expat. In Aust if you dont provide your tax number (TFN) to a bank, they will tax all your interest earned at the highest rate, but if you give them a TFN thery apply no tax and merely report your earnings and balance to the Taxation Office. Then it is up to you to declare the interest as income in your tax return. Perhaps they follow the same/similar process here in Thai Banks - anyone know?

You are right - and unlike in the 'west' where the taxation rules are clear, and usually applied consistently across Offices, and you have recourse to appeal (Tribunals etc.), and you can lodge compaints (Onbudsmen etc.) - here in Thailand things are as clear as mud, the rules are applied very inconsistently, and there is SFA recourse to appeal/complain even for a Thai citizen, let alone an Expat. Yes the majority of Thai Govt 'officials' are OK to deal with and usually nicer than in the west, but if things end up going against you here, there is nothing you can do about it. As you said, they will be under pressure to get more money in to pay for the Govt vote buying schemes, and being caught up in their net now or sometime in the future is a huge worry.

Nail on the head hit. Because of the very strong likelihood of 'errors of interpretation' by Thai Revenue Dept Officers and/or Thai Banks, this is a massive issue for Expats in Thailand. If it is not cleared up quickly and clearly, with the Thai Govt publicly stating that Expat's pensions and savings will not be taxed, the obvious reality is that they will be taxed. Even if the Thai Govt did not intend that to happen, there will very likely occur situations where Expats incoming funds are 'taxed' - and the Expat will have to prove to the satisfaction of the Thai Revenue Officer (or Thai Bank Officer) that the funds were taxed in the country of origin in the previous years - which in many cases will be even more impossible than getting the owners/CEO of a foreign health insurance company to certify that their policy meets the Thai Immigration requirements (remember that??). If I bring over 5-10 million baht to buy a property, will the Thai Bank 'withhold' 30% as potential due tax? Will the Thai Revenue Dept demand I prove the funds were taxed in order to have them released? There are so many other potential issues/problems - and they are potentially very big ones. The fact that this has happened and none in the Thai Govt has stated anything yet, gives me pause to reconsider whether living here long term is a good idea. Malaysia (Penang) is looking good right now - Plan B.

Sorry - you are wrong. Any person who resides in Thailand for more than a total of 180 days in any tax year (Jan1 to Dec31) is a tax resident of Thailand. Freely provable with a Google search.

You are probably right. But how will someone prove that the money in their Aust Super Fund, and which was moved into a Aust Bank account, and then into a Thai bank account, was taxed 2 to 30 years ago. Will I be forced to pay tax if I am unable to prove that the funds I brought over to buy a property were previously taxed. I think that is the big issue - the amounts involved in Pensions remitted to Thailand will not be an issue IMO - but the Millions of Baht remitted to pay for a property/car will IMO 'attract their attention'.

Most do not - my bank accounts (Bangkok Bank and Kringsri) pay me no interest. They are 'old' ones though - opened when I first came to Thailand over 12 years ago.

Yes - that is exactly the issue - will I have to 'prove' the money I brought into Thailand was not income, and what will the Thai Banks do with those funds while I provide 'proof'. Will the funds be 'held' in an escrow type arrangement, awaiting proof? Will Thai Banks merely report the transfer and later the Thai Tax Department demands an explanation and requests me to come in and 'discuss' the situation? Yes I know, that is unlikely, but fining Expats 1900 Baht because a hotel failed to complete the TM30 happened to many people.

So far, from reading most of these posts and other internet opinions, it looks to me that the intent is to tax income brought into Thailand that was generated in previous Tax years, as opposed to the current situation where they taxed only the income generated overseas in 'this' tax year. Many people appear to have been 'holding' their income generated overseas in past years, and then bringing it in when it will not be taxed. That is not the issue for most Expats (eg. rental received from proprrty overseas). The question I have is - will my Pension and/or Savings be taxed when I bring them into a bank account in Thailand. I think this will be clarified soon enough - and I hope the answer is 'no' - otherwise we will be leaving Thailand. Another concern about this for me, which seems to have been overlooked, is will the Thai Banks apply the 'applicable' tax rate to funds received from overseas into the account of a non-citizen tax resident. Thai Banks do not pay interest to non-citizen tax residents on funds in their standard bank account, because of the taxation complications involved. I also am concerned about what Thai Banks might do with this 'taxation complication' when funds are transferred into Expats bank accounts from overseas. I assume until we get a formal/legal explanation of exactly what this 'rule interpretation' means, we are all in a state of limbo - and it is very serious, because many will leave if they do tax our pensions/savings. I am reminded of what happenned when the Junta decided to 'enforce' (interpret) the Immigration Laws a lot more harshly than they previously did. Their clampdown/enforcement of the TM30 rule (reporting overnight stays) was the last straw for me and we left Thailand earlier than planned (to get the Aust Pension). If this goes the way I am worried it will, then this time we will leave and never return (full-time). We came back after the Junta lost the election - I really hope that this is not the fire that we have jumped into (the pan was better).