TroubleandGrumpy

Yes - that is the way to deal with this matter IMO - do workarounds. The key to working around a problem, is to know exactly what the problem/s are and how they will be 'managed'. Once you knwo that then avoiding the problem is a lot easier. Certainly I will be bringing into Thailand before Dec 31 a lot more money than I had planned - because I will not be a tax resident of Thailand in 2023 (just). I was a tax resident for almost 5 years before - but that period is well before this change. I know one guy that is talking of buying a property next year, and is going to be trabsferring over to Thailand this year and in 2024 a heap of money - but he will only be staying in the country for about 170 days next year. Then in 2025 he will be returning full-time - wish I could easily do that - but he has me thinking.

Yes Sheryl that is the case - but exactly which ones are and are not taxable is the issue. Also, when/if you lodge a tax return and say that the DTA means they are exempt, what will the Thai RD need in order to accept that claim - and then what happens if they do not and/or want more proof. I am not really keen to pay income taxes for nothing, but I am also not keen to pay an accountant/lawyer every year to do tax returns. I retired and I dont want to have to go through all that trouble and worry. Easy fix - the Thai RD provides a blanket exemption to long term Expat's pensions and savings brouight into Thailand. The current 'situation' seems to be that all money brought into Thailand could be viewed as taxable income, and therefore each Expat will have to lodge a tax return and claim that it is not taxable - wioth no explanation how to do that or what documents are required and in what form and what is acceptable. Thai Immigration provides the exact details of what documents and information (and money) must be provided for an annual extension 'request' - and yet there is often something new, or changed from last year, or there is a different interpretation by some IO in a bad mood. Hopefully all those details and exemptions and clarifications will be provided before this comes into effect on January 1 2024. This exercise has been very useful on this forum - learning from others and knowing a bit about what needs to be clarified or exempted is a good thing.

Good for you mate. Now do that in 2024, and let me know how that all goes. You remind me of my niece - she refused to wear a helmet on her bike to school - bla bla bla why farang worry - she was just like you. She had an accident one day - in hospital - head injury - all good after a day just headaches for a week or so (no skull fracture - just a lot of blood). I bought her a 'real' helmet and she now wears it every time. Good Luck mate.

So how many Expats do you think are in Thailand and receive either a partial pension or a full pension? If you are right then it means they we will all have to lodge a tax return and claim that under the DTA our pensions are not taxable in Thailand. And what do you recommend we do if the Thai RD decides that I/we are wrong, and/or that the 'evidence' we provided is insufficient, and they decide that I/we must pay income tax? Have you examined the appeals process against a Thai RD decision? I have (planning for worst case) - and it is horrendously difficult - besides being only acceptable in Thai (with multiple and certified translations), it would cost a lot of money hiring an accepotable Thai lawtyer/.accountant to compile and lodge that appeal, and from what I could find, they are extremely reluctant to agree that they were wrong. Plus - what about if the money I bring into Thailand is from multiple sources - how do I or anyone prove that x amount is pension, y amount is savings, z amount is superannuation, etc. If you still cannot see how complicated and difficult this would be for most Expats, then we have nothing to talk about.

Good Luck with that attitude - and I hope you are right. But something tells me you are being overly optimistic - and I am being overly negative. Like I said already several times - I also plan for the worst case, not only the best case. Respectfully, if/when the Thai RD provides all the clarifications and exemptions and definitions that is being requested/demanded by many pundits, then and only then will I seek advice from a tax expert as to what my future course of action should be regarding this change in the income tax rules/method in Thailand. I can tell you this now Mike - Will I be happy to stay in Thailand and pay over 120K per year for 10-15 years for the privilege of being treated as a second class tourist with all the Immigration impositions, reportings, annual beggings, paying extra, and a total lack of rights and no Govt services? NO. I will be happy to stay in Thailand and do an annual tax return (if required for whatever reason) if and only if I am not required to pay income taxes in Thailand (a very small amount would be OK).

Thanks. Could you also provide your view on this statement from that Sherringsa brief:

I hear you - but what do you think about the 1 Million Baht that I transfer over every year? And what about the 5 Million Baht when I buy a property in the near future? IMO I think that they will not be interested in John too - but IMO they could be very interested in me.

True. And neither you. Nor me. But we all do have our opinions. And that is all we have at the moment - opinions. Maybe you know Mike - Question - If a tax resident has no taxable income in Thailand, do they have to lodge a tax return. Question 2 - Does/Will/Can that change under this new tax rule/interpretation.

Yes Jim - that could easily happen to a US Citizen. The USA is different to all other countries - they tax any income earned by a US Citizen anywhere in ther world - unless exception has been applied for. How this tax change in Thailand affects US Citizens going forward will be different for most other Expats from other countries where they accept that their ciitizens can be taxed in other countries. I would say that most US Citizens would be better off than the rest of us following this change - proving you have already been taxed by USA will not be such a burden I believe and will also be accepted easier too I think.

Great points mate. How they do that is that your tax returns are checked - so you have to tell them - it is a voluntary system. But if you dont tell them and they later find out - that itself is a big risk. However, the money you remitted into Thailand you will have to declare that it is savings or whatever, and not income. They can then, if they want to, require you to prove that - they probably wont unless it is a large amount - but who knows how they will manage this change.

You can believe whatever you want Mike - so can I. Read yesterday's and today's BP articles - just for starters.

The Thai RD has not provided any details - Sherring et al can only provide their advice on what they know now. There are plenty of good articles on the web about this matter - including Thai media organisations - it is a concern and they are all seeking clarifications. Hopefully they will provide that sooner rather than later. As some experienced Expats have said, they will probably eventually sort this out. But from what I have seen, the Thai Govt will only change is there is a lot of 'negative feedback' - which this forum is only a small part of.

Ditto - your points made are also often very accurate. However, now you have descended into the 'she'll be right mate" No Problemo Mode. And by all means you can do that - but may I suggest this comment of yours should be examined by yourself in self reflection: " It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait." We must not do anything you say Mike - you give your views - others give theirs - and people make up their own minds. Maybe I am wrong - but I have never told anyone what they MUST do - only what I think might happen and why I think that might happen. What I always have done and always will do, is plan for worst case and best case scenarios. IMO anyone that only plans for best case scenarios and rubbishes those that dont, is like someone not wearing a helmet riding a bike in Thailand. It is up to you, and I hope it all goes well for you, but IMO that is unwise - because if something goes wrong, it could go very wrong.

No - that is trolling - maybe look up Webster/Collins. Example - Is English your first language. That is being a troll.

If this goes ahead as it currently stands (not details) the pundits are saying that the interest you earned on your savings is potentially taxable while you are a tax resident of Thailand. The issue of when it is taxable - remittance - in that year - partial or fully when remitted - is all very complicated. Example - you live in Thailand 100% of the year and earn money from overseas assets - but you do not bring any of that money into Thailand in that year. The 'old' rule says you have no tax liability even though you are a tax resident. So people would bring that money in 1-2 years later - no tax. The 'new' rules means that those earnings you made in the past years you were a tax resident are now taxable - no matter how long later when you bring that money into Thailand. It starts as of the Thai Tax year 2024 - Jan 1 to Dec 31. Any earnings made overseas in that year are taxable in Thailand - now and in the future. But there is hope that they will make exemptions for long term retiree/married Expats (and others) on those earnings made in savings etc - but it will probably not be exempted from earning on investments (property, shares, etc.).

That is a complicated question that no one here really knows the answer to in regards to the future change. Maybe you should ask an accountant/lawyer for advice - they will probably be able to give a reasonmable answer now - but until the Thai RD provides all the details regardiung this change, no one definitively knows.

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance. Or they might disagree and send you a bill ????

That is exactly what that the lawyer/accountant said to me would happen in the near future. He has been in Thailand for a long time (now a Thai Resident) and stated that many years ago that was the deal for all Expats, but now it is only applied to those Expats that work and earn an income in Thailand (employee or a business).

Good Points. All Expats are potentially on their radar. If this goes 'pear-shaped' and Expat remittances are going to checked for applicable income taxation (and check if a tax return has been completed), then unless we can provide 'acceptable proof' (to Thai RD) that taxes have already been paid on all our remittances, then the Thai RD could decide we have to pay the applicable income tax in Thailand. I wonder who will they target first and nail to the cross - IF this goes ahead as it currently stands - as per the media reports and opinions publkished over the weekend. I cannot tell - is this a mountain or molehill??

I think the perfect word for the opposite of “fearmongering” is something like apathetic or complacent. Apathetic, adj: showing no interest or energy, or unwilling to take action, especially over something important. Fear-mongers make a mountain out of a molehill, and apathetes make a molehill out of a mountain.

Blocked

My understanding is that under the DTA the 'tax paid' in the home country (the Home Contracted State) is credited against the tax due to be paid in Thailand. If no tax is paid (because tax free) then technically the tax has to be paid in Thailand. The DTAs were not made for Retirees living abroad - they were made for business operating in both countries, and the people who work in any businesses overseas, and those who invest in businesses overseas. That is why it is imperative that Thai RD provides exact details regarding how the Personal Income Taxes are to be applied for long term Retirees and Married people.

Wow. What you said is exactly what worries many Expats about howe this change is going to happen. Lets hope they back down and this is not implemented that way. But if it is implemented that wau, it means that not only will my 'private' money I earned/saved years ago be taxed - unless I can 'prove' it was already taxed (not possible I am sure), but also my Govt pension - because the Aust Govt does not tax a pension payment - it is tax free. I agree about what you stated regarding their move to do exactly what screwed up our societies - looking after the poor and disadvantaged by throwing money at them. I know - because that is a 'black hole' of tax money wastage - both the target people and the all public servants administering the programs. Plus I can see any future MFP Govt doubling down on this social safety khrapp and even more new taxes being paid by Thais - and including Expats. Lets hope they get such negative feedback that they back away from taking the road to progressive disaster.

I sure hope this Thai Govt does not think they should do the same. I know a little bit about German's 'tax system' and they are the 'worst' in Europe - extremely bureacratic and very fragmented. You would think that they are so 'organised' - you know making cars, machines, and being so 'German' - but no - that is not how their Govt organisations are. They are very authoritarian - but they are not very organised and efficient. I was told many decades ago that the two worst people to run an organisation were Salespeople and Engineers. The Salespeople would make the company go through a series of booms and busts, because they are always chasing a new deal and not making things work well. But the Engineers would implement and reinforce rigourous 'quality controls' over all the organisation's systems, such that over time no one would be able to do anything without changing the whole system - that is the German bureacracy today. A decade or so after getting that advice, I witnessed first hand the takeover of many organisations by the beancounters (accountants) and realised they are just basically just 'money engineers'.

Good Luck.