TroubleandGrumpy

Monday is also a public holiday for a religious reason - does the same apply then too?

Looked but did not find it on this thread - does anyone know if a DTV means you do not have to report every 90 days. Also - does someone with a DTV have to report when moving to a new Province ? TM30/28 etc. If those things are not required then I think that DTV is a far better option than any long term Visa or annual extension process.

Good question - I would suggest you should probably either lodge or dodge (as in get out of .......). I dont think their 'system' will flag you for immediate checking, but maybe your name would be added to a list to be 'checked later'. After all, they can go back and investigate for many years later - all they need is your name and passport etc. Another reason to be careful boys - if you get into a relationship 'spat' this could be used against you. Not saying that UKresonant is in one, but obviously another Thai wife/GF with 'issues' could 'report' you.

I already posted my previous post about some PM exchanges before reading this one of yours. That was not intended to debate this matter with you any further - many people are asking me for my opinion and being a public forum for open discussions that will be what I do going forward. I have clearly conveyed to everyone the reality and truthfulness of what I was advised, and what I am going to do, unless official advice comes from TRD to the contrary. I will give you this ML, others that accused me of making up that tax advice have all disappeared, and you are the only one who stood up and accepted it - credit to you for that.

Over the last few days I have received a few PMs - and when finishing one reply I realised this should be provided (edited) for others that might also want my opinions - with clear disclaimer about not giving tax advice. So here it is (edited). "The reason (I think) that both quotes were so high is because I summarised my financial situation (anticipating forward 12 months), and that included all my Pension Payments, and my withdrawals from my Retirement Savings Account (including 'earnings'), and from a small Inheritance, and the use of the Thai-Australia DTA to ensure my tax was minimised and no double taxation applied. IMO they are 'reaping the crop' of the taxation fear created by the announcement of the change, the subsequent lack of detailed clarifications, and the interpretation/belief of some Expats, that we should be paying income taxes to live in Thailand. IMO Thailand has no moral right to tax people they treat as parolees and who have no legal rights and no Govt services provided to them (but that issue is for another day). If you are bringing money into Thailand that is in the form of ----------------------, then it would be very expensive doing that - but up to you. The Thai Tax Dept will not be able to verify all those transfers and lodging a tax return based on those transfers would probably cost more to put together (based on receipts?) than my quotes. But their first question will be what was the source of the money you used to pay/get that money? Working? Rental? Investments? Accumulated Savings? Unless it is 'income' as defined in the TRD Tax Code, it is not assessable income in Thailand - plus there are many types of 'income' listed that are not taxed in Thailand. IMO you can and should check that all yourself rather than paying an accountant to do that for you. Section 38_64 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) That Thailand tax system is not simple and easy, nor consistent or 'fair', like that in the West and which you are probably used to - it can be very difficult depending on which Tax Officer in the Provincial Office assesses your income tax return (same as with Immigration). Then when it comes to the application of the provisions in the 61 DTAs that Thailand has with other countries, that is another level of complexity and source of potential problems. I think that is a big chunk of the costs those companies quoted. The reason I asked those companies to provide me a quote/estimate was to find out how much it would cost, because I did not accept people saying we must lodge a tax return and that it is easy. It was a surprise to me when one of them stated that they had done some analysis and I was not required to lodge a tax return because I would not have to pay any income taxes. My 'income' was well over the assessable amount - but after the allowances and exemptions and provisions of the DTA were taken into account, I did not have any income tax amount to pay. I will not go into details, but some Thai apologists are saying if you have over 'XYZ' in 'assessable income' (as detailed on that TRD website above) you must lodge a tax return. The advice I have anecdotally received from many people, and now in writing form a tax firm, is that if you do not have to pay income taxes (after allowances etc deducted) then you do not have to lodge a tax return. That is the way it has operated in Thailand for a long time - and that is why only about 10 million Thais lodge tax returns - and the fact is that TRD has never pursued all those retired Expats and non-lodging Thais, because they dont want millions of tax returns being processed that have no tax payments associated with them. TRD does not have the resources or expertise to manage an extra 20-30 million tax returns - especially from the 300-400K Expats living in Thailand who do not work in Thailand. Hope that helps you understand how things really are. BUT having said that, the TRD has been saying they want Expats to pay income taxes and the Government is desperate for money as the economy continues to crash. We will not know until later this year whether Thailand will follow Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia who all specifically exclude Expats money, brought into their country from their home country, from paying income taxes. I mean what sort of idiots would tax Tourists for the money they transfer into Thailand to pay for their holidays and living costs - that would be stupid. That reminds me of that quote by Gomez in that old TV show The Addams Family (only a fool would ................ ). In addition - I should have said that my total assessable income was well over 500K Baht, plus I transferred over money that was from my retirement savings, with the total being over 1.2 million Baht (we play golf a lot and travel)

The answer I got was 'No' and before you ask or state this - none of those other tax companies said I did have to lodge a tax return. I sent them all the same detailed request asking for an estimate/quote of how much they would charge me to lodge a Thai tax return - including the use of the Thai-Aust DTA. That one company wrote back stating that I did not have to lodge a tax return, because I had no taxes to pay, was a surprise. Some companies have integrity - that one clearly has a lot of integrity and if ever needed they are my first call. I note in the past that they also gave me great and honest advice when I asked about becoming a Thai Resident - the others I asked back then all gave me an estimate of their costs and the likely timeframe.

Thanks again Jim - but lets just let it go - he seems to always want to argue he is correct and that unless we get it in writing signed by the TRD that we are wrong. Best not to respond and just ignore any bickering/argumentative posts. I have made my point and proved it and I thank you for 'defending' me, but lets just let it go and move forward - tomorrow is another day and maybe then TRD will provide some definitive advice.

I have noted some differences of opinion regarding the level of 'assessable income' that is mentioned in the TRD Tax Guide as a trigger to being potentially liable to pay income taxes. There are two separate Tax Guides as per below - and there are two 'trigger' amounts. 120K applies to singles who earn money through employment - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.91) 60K applies to singles who earn money 'not from employment' - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90) Go to this website below and click on 'pdf' to download each separate file. Year 2023 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Thanks mate - much appreciated. The clear MO of the TRD for many years, regarding Expats without employment income, is that they do not want us to lodge a tax return if we have no income taxes to pay. That same MO applies to all those Thais working in professions that means they are not employed by a company. That has been going on for many many years - it is what is called an 'unwritten rule'. Now perhaps that is going to change going forward - and perhaps not. But I have legal advice under the current filing rules, stating that I dont have to lodge a tax return because I have no income taxes to pay. This is despite some other posters stating emphatically for many months that we all MUST get a TIN if they bring into Thailand over 60K Baht and that we all MUST also lodge a tax return. That position is clearly wrong - it is not a MUST - it is an opinion. Only when/if TRD provide details and clarification later this year, will we all know what TRD wants us to do - and in the absence of any new 'directive' that states all non-employed Expats must lodge a tax return, then I will go with the many years of common practice and the legal advice I was given.

Nothing is proven as with regards to any changes that will be made by TRD regarding Expats paying income taxes and lodging tax returns in 2025 and onwards. But what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person). Some tax experts will say that is the case based on the literal rules (and their desire to make money which is their job), and some tax experts say otherwise based on their experience about what TRD wants to be filed at this time. You and I disagree - and I think that is clear to all - and we each have our own opinion. I have accepted the advice that I do not need to lodge a tax return, and unless TRD states anything contrary to that advice, that is what I will be doing (not lodging a tax return). It is up to others whether they agree with that or not - so lets stop debating this issue and move on.

I will now quote that same rule back at you. You have demanded that I provide something that is both an invasion of my privacy and is in violation of a law (confidentiality). However, I am not going to pursue this matter - and I do not want your or my posts removed. What I have done in providing edited screenshots of 2 of the emails that I received, has been done to prove to you and others that you are wrong in making your assumption that I made up those emails. Likewise, going forward, it is my intention on this public forum to discuss/debate anything that you or anyone else posts regarding Thai income taxes on Expats, that IMO is based on false or inaccurate assumptions.

You sure know a lot about the forum rules - please allow me to rhetort. I am not referring to a published website source - I am referring to an email I was provided. How do I post a link to a personal email???? But I am reluctant to 'debate' this matter any further or I am sure you will report me and get me suspended again. You seem to think you are still a Mod and that you 'own' this thread and can control people that disagree with anything you state as fact. Therefore, in order to shut down people like yourself and noting another derogatory posts was removed - I offer this edited screenshot. I will not breach the terms and conditions of the email by publishing anything more than this. I note that you and others do not demand I prove the quotes given for lodging a tax return - but here is one just for you.

Very true - again and again this reality of the Thai legal system is there to be seen. The Thai legal system is there to protect the Thais first and foremost and only - it is not about the application of fair and equal legal rights to Tourists/Foreigners. In a few ways Thailand is first world, but in the legal system it is third world. I recall the case where a Provincial Judge ruled that it was not breaching the Equal Rights Provision of the Thai Constitution regarding charging Foreigners extra for the same services - because they are wealthy and it is good for Thailand - that was what he said in his official Judgement. I recall a well known Expat (Tim Newton of the Thiager fame and now Youtuber) who stated that in all the years he has been in Thailand not one Expat/Foreigner has ever won a legal case against a Thai person or company in a Thai Court - not one.

And a straight answer was provided straight back 🙂

And yes - it was a USA/Thai legal firm, incorporated in USA and with an operating office in Thailand.

Clearly your knowledge of the legal/taxation systems are very short in substance and you have no idea how things are done in Thailand's legal system. It took me less than a minute to find this perfectly clear legal advice about disclaimers and caveats in email advice. May I suggest that you read up on legal and taxation matters a lot more so that you are made more aware. For you and and other ignorant person (ignorant of legal realities) I offer the following website as quick summary of why emails have disclaimers and caveats. Email Confidentiality Disclaimers: Annoying But Are They Legally Binding? (cenkuslaw.com) However, before anyone thinks using their hillbilly understanding that their statements that the email disclaimers may not be technically enforceable, I will remind you that the legal system in Thailand is not the same as that in Kansas (where people have rights). In Thailand it is very much a cowboy system - where people get arrested and put in jail for negative social media statements etc etc etc. I am certainly not going to risk getting into the bad books of the company that sent the email with a clear disclaimer of not publishing it. How about me demanding the names and titles of any persons in TRD that gave you the advice and information that you keep quoting??

The Dems should have let Trump have his second term, because IMO they are going to be decimated across the table in November. GOP will win POTUS, House and Senate in a landslide not seen since Reagan - maybe even more. Following that they will embark on a 'campaign of change' hitherto unseen in USA politics. IMO the Dems power-brokers gave Biden the nod in 2019 as a 'reward' for a life's service to their cause - he was not supposed to win. Putting aside the result, because Biden has been a disaster and Trump has had 4 years to prepare, things are going to be very bad for the Dems. But in politics 24 hours can be a long time and who knows what will happen over the next 4 months. But as things look now, the Dems are goneski.

Breaking News (satire) - The New York DA has issued a request for a Grand Jury to decide if Trump can be Indicted for "Inciting an Assassination Attempt on a past President" According to papers leaked to the WaPo, by being a fascist and racist and gun supporter the Bad Orange Bad Man "is clearly at fault for someone attempting to murder him with a rifle" The NY DA also stated "If Trump were not literally Hitler, no one would have tried to kill him in the first place. It's time we in the legal system go after Hitler, and not the people trying to murder Hitler." The WaPo advised that at publishing time, the NY DA was also proceeding with charges against Trump for causing the Secret Service to shoot the brave would-be assassin illegally. "He brought all this on himself, and we will ensure justice is done."

He has been an embarrassment since 'elected'.

You have clearly never received legal advice before - you are not allowed to publish 'substantial information' contained in that advice and the organisation that gave it to you - without their permission. Look it up ret.

I am more than happy to see this 'debate' continue in its current direction and form. Plus I would point out that this thread Parts 1 and 2 was done to consolidate all other existing discussions on separate threads into the one thread. I would prefer not to have another bunch of threads appear whenever a new issue is raised- as they inevitably will be, as this thing goes forward. I know where to go to for the latest information and discussions on Thailand taxing Expats - and it is to this thread.

Sorry - that was formal advice provided to myself on the basis that it was not 'published'. The usual legal caveats as comes with any legal advice given to anyone else - you are not allowed to publish that advice. However they are well known and have been referred to several times in this and other related threads.

Exactly, and IMO they are the experts in what they want us to do. But just to be clear, IMO they are not referring to an Expat who earns money either in Thailand or through doing anything in Thailand, they are referring to Expats that are retired/married and bring their previously taxed money to Thailand (just like all Tourists do). When/If TRD provides their updated advice later this year as to how any change affects retired/married Expats, and/or any subsequent statements are made by TRD, The Finance Ministers, The PM or Cabinet, then and only then will we all know for certain what is expected of us retired/married Expats (not earning money in/from Thailand. Until/unless that happens, I am taking the advice as provided to Expats in Regional TRD Offices and to myself by a Thai Accredited Tax Company (based upon my current financial situation), I will not be lodging a tax return in 2025 for 2024.

The 'education' system in Thailand is their biggest problem - it has been holding them back for decades and it is now biting them big time on their butts as they struggle to cope with a changed world post-Covid. The Thai workforce is not efficient, flexible or educated - they dont know how to learn new things. Anyone from overseas opening a large business here nowadays is either ignorant, linked to certain Thainese families, corrupt or extremely brave. As that Thai man said (the one from BOI who never spoke again) Thailand needs to offer much more than beaches and girls and rip-off Visas to attract business investments - and certainly not income tax nightmares.

More lunacy ideas from this land of lunatics - talk about the animals running the farm - did not George write a book about that and warn us all it would lead to economic and social disaster.