TroubleandGrumpy

There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office. May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration. My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.

Exactly. If the RD is directed to go forward under this new 'method', then without any exclusions for retired/married Expats (like in Malaysia, Philippiones, and other countries) that means all Expat remittances into Thailand can (will?) be viewed as taxable income. In the past we were put in the one of many 'too hard' baskets by the Thai RD - not worth the efforts. Clearly the Govt is pushing them to close the loopholes, and to also pursue all taxable income. I do expect that there will be some sort of clarification for all people who could be affected under this change, not just Expats, prior to the end of December this year. I just cannot fathom Expats who think they can decide themselves what the tax office will decide is and is not taxable, and how DTAs can and will be applied by the RD. I also think they dont realise that claim (I thought it was not taxable), is not a valid response when/if they are audited in the future. As I have said before, my plan in response to this new reality in Thailand, is to bring in extra funds before end December this year (because I will not be a tax resident this year). Then I plan in 2024 to will only bring in my Pension (audit trial included) and some small withdrawals from my Super savings (again audit trail included). I will then lodge a tax return in 2025 and see how it goes. However, depending on how things pan out, I may change that strategy. If Thailand Govt/RD provides a clear direction that my money will not be taxable income, and that I do not need to lodge a tax return, then it will be business as usual going forward. If the Thailand Govt/RD states that all Expat remittances into Thailand over XYZ Baht are taxable income, and each Expat has to claim exemptions and/or credits in their annual tax returns, then I will probably be leaving Thailand (depends on how much I might have to pay) depending on how my 2025 tax return goes.

I agree - but some think it will all be fine. Each to his own - I would prefer to know now, rather than find out later when fines and interest penalties could get involved.

Agree - lets agree to disagree.

Thanks for that detailed explanation - now I understand - no you had not detailed that before. IMO you should be careful if/when they make this change - I suggest getting advice from a tax lawyer/accountant. The reason I say that is because while you are a tax resident in Thailand, the rental money you recieve in UK is taxable income in Thailand. In answer to your question. My Thai lawyer told me that a tax return in Thailand using a DTA for exmeption or credits is a complex matter and it would not be easy or cheap. Likewise, I have seen two vlogs by lawyers in Thailand who both say any tax return involving DTAs is complex - and one that at this point in time they are only used for companies tax returns (not personal income tax). So please tell me Mike - given that you have never done a tax return involving DTA exemptions and credits - what make you think that they will be easy?

Excellent point/questions. The answere IMO is ' They dont have a clue'. A few weeks ago a report was released that showed clearly that although there had been a big growth in tourism in late 2022 and early 2023, there had been no measurable positive impact on the local economy at the grassroots level. That of course was quickly forgotten, and they made even more efforts to increase tourism - including Visa exempt entry for the Chinese. This was done while they constantly looked the other way regarding the constant news about the amount of crimes being committed by 'Chinese' people. To understand what the answers are to your questions, means knowing how the rich got richer during Covid, while the vast majority of us got poorer. The uber rich are very good at 'making money' during difficult times - they and the media thrive during those periods - they love a 'good war'. That is the same in Thailand.

That is yet to be determined - exactly how the Thai RD wants Expats to 'report' their remittances into Thailand - if they do. Right now, it would be that you complete the claim and attach what documents you think are relevent. But under the new 'method' it might be that much more is required - or the Thai RD may make a info release saying certain payments to foreigners on long term Visas is not required to be lodged - but we have to wait and see. In a recent post I detailed what they did in Malaysia when they introduced this change in 2021 (I think). After much 'feedback' they delayed the implementation by 5 years, and exempted personal income taxes from being affected. They start their new 'method' in 2026 - hopefully Thailand does the same. PS - expats on long term Visas in Malaysia are exmpted from taxes on remittances - as long as the money brought in, is for spending inside Malaysia and is not sent onwards to another country (without a valid reason).

Yes I can see that Mike - very strongly - but that is up to you. I say this because I was the same 10 years ago - 'No it is not a Visa extension it is a Permission to Stay extension'. But I realised that it does not really matter, as long as you know what the person means. Certainly, I dont agree with them, but I learnt it is easier to let it go and do not 'correct' them. Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years? I would also suggest you rer-read all of your comments and mine regarding a Resident and tax resident. Nowhere do I say that I do not know the difference - I am very aware of them - I have spoken to a lawyer about applying for Residency - very little chance (not employed/working). You assume that I dont know and then go into a rant - you are looking for disagreement Mike - re-read and you will see. I have both studied all the taxation documents released by Thai RD, I have downloaded the Thai RD online tax return documents, I have studied all the press releases by the Thai Lawyers (including Sherrings which you gave), and I have been emailing back and forth with my Thai lawyer. It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA - and if you re-read one of your own posts you dont know anything about it when I specifically asked you: Posted Tuesday at 06:54 PM I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment. Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable. And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys). But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ????

10 Billion - then TAT would get paid HUGE bonuses for bringing exconomic properity and happiness to the Thai people. I am sure that in a country run by people that have no care about repairing the roads and footpaths (and everything else), that the people running the place dont give a rat's rear about how badly Chinese behave - as long as they spend money.

There you are. Shouldn't you be getting back to your village? I am sure they miss you. Yes I am sure they do.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Residency Mike - did you apply and get rejected. Or is it just that you are on a one man crsade to stop people using the wrong technical term ???? I suggest you just let it go mate. People say the wrong thing about extending their 'Visa' when of course it is their Permission to Stay. Correcting what others say all the time is not a good sign. You might be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand - and you can claim that lodiging a tax return in Thailand will be all fairy floss and unicorns - but most of us disagree. And please dont correct me and say there are no unicorns in Thailand - you (should) know what I mean.

My advice to you mate. Rural Thailand is nothing like Rural USA - not even on the same planet. But I also agree with you in regards to Pattaya etc. There are Expats in all the main Isaan Cities, but unlike in other parts of Thailand, most of them are not Sexpats who you want to avoid at all costs. Many of them are blokes who may have started out that way here, but they grew up and started a long term relationship with an Isaan girl in Bangkok, Pattaya etc., and then they moved there. There are also those Expats that got hooked by a bar girl and he thinks she will always love him - bla bla bla. If you are looking for somewhere to go as a single and then maybe find an Isaan girl, my advice to you is to be very very careful - you will stand out like a Bulldog's balls and you will become a 'target' for the 'not so good' Isaan girls. May I suggest that you go to Chiang Mai first and whist there, start getting used to the Thai culture - and stay single. Chiang Mai aint Isaan, but it is a lot closer to the 'real' rural Thailand of Isaan than Bangkok, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui or Phuket etc. Once you have 'adjusted' in Chaing Mai then go to each of those Cities you mentioned, for at least 2 weeks each, to get a feel of the place and see if you like it. PS - never buy a property in Thailand - rent (easy to move or get away). On a broader note, English is everywhere in Thailand - but it is not spoken everywhere. The street signs are in Thai and English. The Thai ID Cards are in both - as are many other Government Docs. Most Thai websites have an English option. Rural farmers in Isaan tend to not speak English much, while the Doctor in Bangkok will speak fluent English. Many Issan girls go to work in the big cities where tourists are - some start working in the 'bar girl' industry, but most do not. Avoid bar girls unless you just want them for a short period of time, and absolutely you must stay away from any girl that was a bar girl. Do your research. Take your time.

Isn't this from Thai BS organisations that claims 3.8 million 'tourists' have arrived from Malaysia in 2023, and they all spent 50K Baht during their visit, generated 200 Billion Baht in 'economic benefits'? Even the tallest village idiot should know that the vast majority of 'visitors' from Malaysia come over the southern border (walk) - for work, family and other social reasons. Maybe I am wrong, but I have not seen any large numbers of Malaysians about in Bangkok, Chonburi, Pattaya or Rayong - and someone said on their vlog recently 'They aint here in Phuket'. Are they all going to Hua Hin maybe? Chiang Mai? Isaan?

I am sure that the Thai RD is working through all the issues and complications that this new 'interpretation' is likely to impose on all tax residents in Thailand - Thais and Foreigners. I am also sure they are not at all looking at AN to get inputs - but on the off chance 'someone' is listening, I am giving this information below. Because I am extremely unhappy about this new potential imposition in Thailand, I have been looking more closely into those countries nearby where they encourage and support Expat retirees living long-term in their country - and spending all/most of their money there. One of the standout countries is Malaysia - there are lots of 'western' Expats in Penang. Obviously there are others, but for this matter I am quoting only Malaysia and how they nadled this change. On 1 January 2022, Malaysia introduced the same 'system' that Thailand is doing as of 1 January 2024. They received lots of feedback, and subsequently the Govt made the following statement: Due to concerns raised by various parties on the possible ramifications of removing the exemption for FSI remitted to Malaysia, the Ministry of Finance (“MoF”) had, on 30 December 2021, announced that this exemption from income tax will be given, by concession, for a period of five (5) years from 1 January 2022 to 31 December 2026 on certain categories of FSI received by the following groups of tax residents: Individuals – All categories of foreign sourced income are exempted. Companies – Foreign sourced dividend income is exempted. What are not taxable? The provisions will only affect gains that are “income” in nature. On this note, foreign source gains that are “capital” in nature will not be subject to tax. Foreign source capital gains should include proceeds from the disposal of foreign stocks, foreign properties, foreign assets, foreign currencies, foreign investment papers, etc, if these assets had been held as long-term investments. As to whether the gains are “income” or “capital” in nature, the onus of proof lies with the Malaysian tax resident based on the facts and circumstances giving rise to the gains. If the remittances are found to be income in nature instead of capital as claimed by the taxpayers, the same shall be subject to income tax. Lets hope that the Thailand Government realises the can of worms that they have opened, and follow the lead of its neighbour Malaysia, and make some clear exemptions, and provide time for this change to be managed by all Thai tax residents. As many posters here have said, the Govt and Thai RD is not doing this to target Expats who bring their money, savings and pensions into Thailand to support thermselves and/or their Thai families. But unfortunately, that is how things do play out whenever a Government makes a change to catch certain people - they also catch others that they were not really after. Malaysia left it until December of the year before the change started - hopefully Thailand will do it a little quicker.

I agree with all that - If I do need to do a tax return in Thailand. Plus I would look for one that knows the DTA betwen Thailand and my home country. There are many legal/accounting firms in Thailand that have a senior person or owner, who is someone from US, UK, Aussie, etc. But before getting to that point of needing a tax lawyer/accountant - there are a few issues that are still awaiting clarification from the Thai RD. If I remit a large amount of money into Thailand (over the 150K tax free threshold), but none of it is income as defined in the Thai Tax Code, am I still required to lodge a tax return. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is a Govt Pension as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Govt controlled Retirement Fund (Superannuation in Australia), as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Savings Account, as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes. In other words, does the Thai RD view any/all remittances brought into Thailand by Expats as taxable income, and do I therefore have to lodge a tax return. I am extremely unhappy about having to 'justify' bringing my money into Thailand every year, with the potential of being 'nailed' one year - probably in that year I was silly enough to bring in 5+ million baht to buy a property in Thailand.

Interesting viewpoint - some would even say it is a 'gone Thai feral' view. Rather than throw that all back at you, which would be very easy - how about this viewpoint. We are not Thai Residents or Citizens, we are technically long-stay Tourists. That is why we have to report every 90 days - the max period Tourist Visa is for 90 days. That is why we must request an annual extension of out 'Permission to Stay'. That is why we must apply for a certificate to leave and re-enter under that extended permission to stay. Thailand does not have any "Migrant Visa' - they are all Technically Non-Immigrant Tourist Visas. Therefore I am a tourist and whilst I am happy to pay VAT (and can claim it back if I want to when departing within the initial period), I am not technically liable to pay Income Tax. A few years ago I saw an interview with the then Boss of the Thai Elite Visa office. In response to a technical question about what type of Visa it was, she replied it is technically a Tourist Visa - same as all the others - but with its own terms and conditions. From someone that says it is easy to do a tax return in Thailand, and then in another post says that he has never done one, it seems very strange to me that you feel it is justified for us Expats to pay income taxes. Trust me on this - lodging a tax return in Thailand, where there are international remittances and a DTA involved, is not simple and not easy. I believe that lawyer who told me far more than I believe what you say about it. But to defend the lawyer - he (and all those others quoted in this issue) is obviously 'drumming up business' from Expats.

It looks like it will be very complicated to me - and probably require a lawyer/accountant. Either way, lodging a tax return in Thailand where DTAs are involved will not be - 'done online and is easy enough to do.'

Please tell me Mike - where do you claim DTA exemptions via this 'easy enough to do' online tax return? 080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th) Maybe there is another online tax return system - please advise where that is - I could not find it.

Please see my last post in reply to another guy. It is techncially up to the Thai RD to decide what is and what is not exempted under any DTA - I just hope they dont make us all lodge a return and make the claim (and wait while they decide).

I agree with what you are saying, but technically it is not up to you to make that decision. Only the Thai RD can decide that your pensions are not taxable in Thailand under the Thai/USA DTA. Sure, it should merely be a formality and perhaps a quick contact with Thai RD can give you that assurance and advise you that you dont need to lodge a tax return and make that claim. But who knows what the Govt is going to do about those remittanmces into Thailand by Expats, that are covered under the DTAs and not taxable in Thailand. Maybe they will say 'dont lodge a tax return' - but maybe they will you still have to lodge a tax return and claim exemption/s under the DTA. In the past the Thai RD just did not want to bother with it - lots of work and trouble for them in dealing with Expats, and they knew that the majority of Expat's payments are exempted. But if they are told that we must all lodge returns and claim the exemptions, then they will have no choice.

That is definitely possible - And I thought I was being the worst case scenario ???? I could say that is extremely unlikjely to happen - but who knows.

I agree 100%. Especially wqhen you say dont cut the ties to home country - having a Plan B is essential for any Expats living in Thailand - things can change very quickly and there is very little Expats can do about it - except complain and make a lot of noise ????

Could not have said it any better. But as they say - This Is Thailand - who really knows what they will do. All anyone can do is plan for what they will do in any given situation.

It depends on what you want insurance coverage for. May I suggest that you use a website that gives you comparisons between policies and premiums - and then decide which broker to use. Not all brokers offer policies from all insurers - be aware of that. I would definitely use a broker - going 'direct' means dealing with their head office and/or call centre and that is often no the best. That is why brokers in Thailand are better and cheaper than going direct - the insurance companies dont want all the trouble of dealing with a customer directly. There is a big Expat Club in Chiang Mai - maybe worth talking to them.

We are not the 'targets' - they are after the 'big fish' and we are just 'small fry'. But here is the thing with the taxation 'nets' that they throw out (worldwide) - they 'catch' some small fry in those nets - they dont mean to but they do. Now will Somchai at the local RD Office decide - no worries I let that one go - or will he decide to check further. Remember too - a lot of small fry makes a decent meal. The big fish are very good at avoiding the net. Hopefully they will be 'nice' and clarifiy this matter and give us exemptions - time will tell.