billythehat

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Sure I have read that post. So what?

 

It remains nonsense. Just as your post shows a complete lack of knowledge of the subject.

 

Oh, and you want me to explain the lack of quality reporting here?

Sir, my post shows a clear understanding of the subject so please refrain from being so cheeky. However, should you deign most generously to keep us all amused explaining what words on a page mean, please proceed without delay...

7 minutes ago, Chapelroad said:

 

#5 is BS like yours.

People get heavy sentences for offences like this. 

Yeah I guess 500 Baht is a lot of cash for  some folk…

47 minutes ago, stevenl said:

It is time you pay a visit to a Thai jail, where you see people like thic locked away for many, many years.

 

You and others claiming nonsense that the sentences for these kind of offenders are light really have no clue what they're talking about.

Sir, did you read post #5? That is exactly how it is in a country with no rule of law. You, me or anyone here can be beaten, robbed, raped and murdered with little or no real justice applied. If “people like this blah blah blah…”; then why are there never any follow up statements as to what actually happens?

...but I thought they said it was only a few columns. Looks like they’ve jacketed the whole grid!

Plimsolls and no hard hats? No poplem farang…

Easy to find an engineer to repair and certify the job done. But almost impossible to find one qualified and experienced to identify the cause of the fault.

Correct. But at least they're pretty sure about the structural defects or the design.

http://www.thephuketnews.com/jungceylon-set-for-final-inspection-before-re-opening-port-zone-58425.php

“We have not been able to conclude what caused the damage, we’re but pretty sure that it had nothing to do with structural defects or the design. I don’t think the damage was caused by rainwater either,” he added.

"I don’t think the damage was caused by rainwater either,” he added.

...neither do I ...sheesh what next? wabbits digging burrows under the foundations? yes, that's it, its the wabbits...

From the full article of the OP

>>“We have not been able to conclude what caused the damage, we’re but pretty sure that it had nothing to do with structural defects or the design. I don’t think the damage was caused by rainwater either,” he added.

Doesn't really instill a hell of a lot of confidence, and the "doesn't want to be named"official tells me he's not too sure either.

Exactly right.

Also, as i said before, going on the full article which i did read and comprehend!

Generally, a major structural failure as this is, has to be caused by either "defects" [materials, methodology, etc ,etc] or design flaws, or combination of some/all.

Seeing as they are "pretty sure" that it was neither, it can only be concrete termites that caused the problem.

They are hardy critters.

Agreed, but aspect that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the possibility of failed foundations as a contributory item. A few years ago I was working in Mozambique and a similar type of failure was noted on a RC structure where columns had failed in a similar manner due to seismic activity. I hadn’t considered the termite issue but will look into it…

Exactly right.

Also, as i said before, going on the full article which i did read and comprehend!

Generally, a major structural failure as this is, has to be caused by either "defects" [materials, methodology, etc ,etc] or design flaws, or combination of some/all.

Seeing as they are "pretty sure" that it was neither, it can only be concrete termites that caused the problem.

They are hardy critters.

Maybe we should boycott the place until a full inspection has been carried out by the Thaigeezer team.

After you Psimbo . Seriously not a bad idea though as I bet there are more legit structural engineers on the board than those that "inspected" the fault.

I very much doubt that.

And for sure there are no structural engineers on here who have seen the problem in person.

Sir, I partly agree with your egregious huffing and puffing but would suggest that such an independent qualified person would not be welcome in the first instance. The man/engineer with no name is either Clint Eastwood or somebody who has been advised about his/her career prospects.

@ billythehat

"Somebody clearly knows" - possibly, but whether or not they want the public to know the truth, is a different question.

Agreed. There will be considerable financial pressures to reopen that area in the shortest possible time. If the columns have been patched using jacket systems, subsequent testing and monitoring of the reinstated items will be essential to check that the designed loadings have be accommodated. It cannot be hurried.

I'm sorry, i, obviously wrongly really thought that your comprehension abilities matched your written English.

No worries, my comprehension is far better than my written English.

LOL! You and I have seen what happens when Patong "engineers" inspect anything. Fires, floods, land slips, road collapses and people falling to their death from balconies and or bungie jumps! They still seem to think that water flows uphill! To quote the article: "An engineer from Patong Municipality, who asked not to be named, confirmed the repairs were nearly complete." Hum, wonder why he didn't want to be named? And I'm truly amazed you back up your stance by believing anything your read in the local press these days... I kind of miss Alan and his doubting view of the news we are now fed.

I am far from believing everything I read. But people not reading and then making claims because of not reading should be pointed out IMO.

Somebody claimed the work was done sub par, and subsequent posters jumped on that, as always, since Thais always deliver subpar work and can't be trusted etc.

So far though I have not seen anything or anybody giving any kind of proof that the work has been done subpar. Just the usual criticism, but I very much doubt anybody even knows the exact extend of the problem, let alone the fix.

I would respectfully disagree that ‘very much doubt anybody knows etc.’

“All we need to do is present the structural reports showing that the repairs have been properly carried out and receive permission from provincial officials at the meeting on Tuesday,” she said.

Somebody clearly knows – it will be in the structural report.

Anybody comforted by this?

“All we need to do is present the structural reports showing that the repairs have been properly carried out and receive permission from provincial officials at the meeting on Tuesday,”

A structural report on the 'repairs' before a report on the initial cause of the failure? Can we safely assume that the ‘officials’ to whom the report will be submitted will be qualified to deliberate on structural repairs to composite elements?

Bandaid not repair.

And you know that how? Were you there while they were repairing?

From the article... "On July 15, we learned that the damaged columns had been fixed. The only thing needed to be done was for the outside of the columns to be covered with plaster and decorated."

Sounds like bandaid to me, or worse, just cosmetic coverup.

I read it as 'the repairs were done, only the outside still needed to be covered'. If you read the article in full it is very clear that more has been done than plastering and decorating.

Ridiculous bullying waffle. There’s nothing there that states what reinstatement was performed. The photo of one column that had failed was ‘clearly’ not repairable – full reinstatement was required – not a repair.

My gf opened a hairshop on Nanai Mar 2014. Last month was the first month she made no money. She was able to pay rent, utilities and her staff but, had nothing left to pay herself. The Chinese tourist do nothing for common Phuket folk. Lets hope this isnt too much of a trend

No surprise there. Already more hair shops on Nanai than the market can support.

Actually your premise is incorrect.

If there were too many, how do you explain why she has been so successful for over two years?

Are there too many hair shops....probably a few. If there were "too many" they would be closing down often which, is not the case at all.

My point is that this low season is different.

I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it the wrong way, however your gf is either a very lucky lady or has found a way to make some money in a business which is "overrepresented" here.

A lady friend I have known for many years has had a hair/beauty salon for a number of years now and over a year ago she had to dispense with her worker because she was making no money. She is not faring much better now. Another lady friend was helping her sister in her hair salon in Nanai and that closed down over 12 months ago.

The newly opened hair salon at the bottom of Soi Nanai 6 lasted less than two months and is now closed and I bumped into another lady whom I remembered from the Guitar bar a few years ago and she was running a hair salon just off Nanai and said that business was extremely bad.

If you think back, then the last three high seasons have not been that high and the three traditional low seasons have been extremely low, and they have been getting progressively worse, so if your gf has been making money up to now, she has done extremely well, however I think these low times are here to stay, unfortunately for many small businesses.

Sir, furthermore, it could be suggested that a firm grasp of the idea of how a successful biznit model works has been sadly lacking and the ongoing consequences resulting therein. In the case of the lass who managed to keep her head above water longer than her rivals in the hair snipping biz may have been a result of that most unusual Thai quality, a good biznit plan coupled with exceptional customer care – any good biznit is worth nought without a firm and loyal customer base. I believe Simon the Copper has made that sermon in a number of posts relating to his hotels out in the boonies by the airport. However, the bottom line in biznit is that ability matters very little if you’ve chased all your main customer base outta town. The Thai defenders can huff and puff all they want; a dead buffalo is a dead buffalo. Concerning the running of a hotel; I’ve stayed at many hotels in Thailand and generally the best have been run by non-Thais and the worst have been Thai owned or farang owned and administered by Thais, I’m just saying. Its’ not that I’ve seen more brains in a chocolate egg, oh no, but more probably poor attitude and cultural issues coupled with the earlier point alluding to the original biznit model. Speaking to a number of expats who run businesses there always say that getting good staff is a major issue akin to trying to herd cats whilst juggling cobras. A reasonable observation and highlights the benefits of having a good crew onboard.

Your limited knowledge of Phuket's right up there with your limited knowledge of Chiang Mai.

I really wasn't gonna bother with this because folks like you really just ain't worth the effort. But......

Well, that’s as maybe. But at least MY posts contain some information on the basis of which people can make some kind of an assessment. Which, if they follow up with a visit to either Phuket or CM, I’m more than confident they’ll find are not too far off the mark

Yours? Well, nothing really, is there? Vacuous ‘wanna be smarta55’ one liners with nothing but innuendo or childish blatant baiting. Maybe when you grow up you can start posting with some information and detail so people can assess the extent of your claimed superior knowledge, or you can just keep up with the "I am 12" playground stuff.

IGNORE LIST.

Hee hee, shouldn’t worry about it to mutt. You see the main difference will always be the simple fact that where the occasional visitor can see clearly the decline of the place from year to year, the incumbent inmates only see the day to day crumbling vista disappearing more slowly into the sunset – it’s not that stark a picture to them. Advanced years may be a contributory factor to add in too. I tend to look on the deterioration as once having a rare vintage bottle of single malt Irish Whisky that I used to bring out occasionally to savour a wee dram. When it was all gone, it was gone and I enjoyed it immensely whilst it was around. Pa used to say to me “Son, don’t drink from the same well too often, aye”, which came a bit rich from a Paddy who drank at the same pub for 30 years, but more as a nod to any soul who is a natural wanderer and on the shortness of life. Patong a case in point, it had its time and now it’s gone, time to leave the party and thank Buddha you had no ties! Contributing to the woes of Phuket is the size of the island; there was only so much strain an island a mere 29x12 miles could take with regard to resources, etc. Something had to give. Must have been a real paradise once.

It's funny. I moved out about 6 months ago. Thought I'd try Chiang Mai. After about 6 months I thought oh oh. Did I do the right thing? Maybe I'll go back to Phuket. Not sure. Then I went to visit again.

Before I used to hang out at Surin a lot. Really liked Catch Club but also had Bimi and Zazada. Being out there I'd often hit Bliss for happy hour (BOGOF) at 5 pm. Now, Surin is absolute shi#e. Bulldozed to make it look the way it did the last time they had visiting dignitaries. Great. Good plan. But that was what, 50 years ago. Beach sure looks good now. Provided you keep your eyes away from the rubble they've yet to clear. No customers either. Nothing. Squat.

So, the owners of Catch open up a new place at Kamala. HQ Lounge. Looks OK. Except it's new, not known about. Dead as a Dodo. And, unlike Catch, it has no catchment area around it to attract customers. You either know about HQ and plan to go there or you don't. Most don't. No foot traffic, little by way of random drive in and a crap restaurant that's not a patch on Catch, looks crap too.

Which, unless you opt for the wannabe Patong places like Karon / Kata, or the deathly hallows of Chalong and Rawai, leaves - Patong. Having spent a week in it again recently ANY plans or thoughts I might have had to go back are binned for sure. Bangla for me is the absolute pits these days. If I was looking for that type of night out I'd sooner hit BKK (and even that is far cheaper with a much better array of good restaurants) or even Patts. And those touts I agree are so annoying, combined with the bleedin street artists. Jeez. Even walking up Bangla is an effort, coupled with the 'SO DESPERATE for customers' clawing in the side sois and the Thai model to deal with fewer customers - oh yeah, let's jack the prices up! I mean - seriously? SERIOUSLY? Just WHAT is on offer here that anyone would want to buy????

At one point I thought maybe I missed Phuket a bit. Trouble is, even in 6 months, its good points have been eroded even further and Patong has nose dived even further. Now, no way. Biggest problem for me with Patong was that there was never anywhere decent to go for a relaxing drink / sundowner with a partner. Just BANG BANG BANG concrete beer bars and coyote haunts. But it was still OK. Before, you could head out of town and go to some nice chillax places. Now? Nah, let's bulldoze them. So there's f all of any quality IN Patong and now, f all of any quality outside it. Sure there might be the odd place around. But if it's crap, it's on yer bike or get in the car and drive somewhere else. Or take one of Phuket's great VFM taxis.

Even tonight. Went out to a local Thai style bar in Chiang Mai. Quiet night. Maybe 15 PR / Hostess girls working. All stunning. Took a bottle of Regency in as I'd been out to eat earlier. Sat chatting to the owner for couple of hours. Bought 3 drinks for the girls I chat to there, couple of hours great company, check bin - 405 baht!!! OK you need to speak Thai to go there and they wouldn't be interested in tourists I guess, but, in Patong. Yah, the attraction now is what exactly? Really the pits as I see it. I'd take BKK over Patong any time for party times. And visit Phuket for any other reason? Pass.

Concur with your sentiments here regarding Patong. I found CM a wee bit of a yawn after a week but outside of the main berg there are still some charming places and folk and agree that being able to speak some Thai can oil the wheels for sure. I know an American hotel owner in Patong whose been there 10+ years and married to a Thai; I asked him if he spoke Thai and through gritted teeth he growled “No…and just as well for her”. Fair enough.

I don't see even one support post along that entire stretch.

Support post? No Pops, what you would have expected to see is professionally designed and installed reinforced concrete retaining wall arranged say in 6 metre bays with typically a 20mm joint between bays. Where excessive passive earth pressures are determined, provision for weep holes using small cast-in pipes at finished ground level would have been shown and placed as per the engineer’s specification for the works. The wall should have been cast in formwork as a continuous vertical item but as the photo clearly shows the structure was formed in 3 pours and not particularly well either leaving no real structural integrity in the finished wall. A previous poster mentioned thinness of the wall but I estimate the wall to be approximately 3 metres high and therefore a thickness of 200mm would have been okay using H12 bars at 200mm centres each way would have been a reasonable design if professionally installed. If by ‘posts’ you meant the use of buttress columns, that would have meant the elements intruding into the pavement and no engineer would have been that incompetent. As mentioned previously I normally charge for my services but as I don’t need the cash at the moment please make a donation to your local police or treat the wife to some more of the gold bling they so adore.

What;s the significance of painting the columns black Billy? Sorry, that one's lost on me - then again much of life is these days.

The occasional alleged practice of air carriers of painting over their logos on air strips when a potential litigious occurrence may cause a loss of face and cash. This has been covered in previous TV tales.

I heard yesterday that the SCB called in their engineer and he advised all the banks in the basement to close down. I also understand the Phuket Provincial engineer has refused to sign off on the remedial work. All hearsay of course but sounds believable.

By signing off the remedial works he would have had to first know the full cause(s) of the faliure - unlikely given that testing, reports, etc. take time to evaluate. One of the main problems when dealing with these types of structural faliure is to find a competent contactor who can and will ensure the safety of its workers in a potentially highly dangerous location. I mention this because an earlier photo showed scaffold ladders being used as props; very useful if you want to change a light bulb but as helpful as a chocolate fire guard should several tons of concrete floor decide to tumble down around your head. Furthermore, the Chief Engineer may have had access to the calculation sheets which would have stated the rebar requirements for said columns against what has actually been installed and based his recommendation on that. Oh well...

"One of the main problems when dealing with these types of structural faliure is to find a competent contactor" - don't you mean a contractor than can not be corrupted?

Sir, whilst your intimation as to my real meaning may be indeed factual, I was unable to formulate an expression using iambic pentameter in a way that would be clearly understood and not defame the good name of Thailand.

Concerning alleged corruption, some may say that one of the greatest impacts of corruption normally arises out of the choices and priorities of governments. This occurs when the real development priorities of a country are often neglected in favour of those that generate the greatest personal gains for the decision makers. Here, it is clearly evident that many projects in developing/3^rd World countries have become white elephants and easy route for personal self enrichment. Allegedly of course.

If one were to use Thailand as an example, the day to day scams mainly of a financial form are one thing but when the tentacles of corruption can involve the loss of human life with no accountability then the problem of who's values apply when it is not your playground?

Back to the columns; as you reside in Patong, would happen to know whether the columns that have failed have been painted over black?

I heard yesterday that the SCB called in their engineer and he advised all the banks in the basement to close down. I also understand the Phuket Provincial engineer has refused to sign off on the remedial work. All hearsay of course but sounds believable.

By signing off the remedial works he would have had to first know the full cause(s) of the faliure - unlikely given that testing, reports, etc. take time to evaluate. One of the main problems when dealing with these types of structural faliure is to find a competent contactor who can and will ensure the safety of its workers in a potentially highly dangerous location. I mention this because an earlier photo showed scaffold ladders being used as props; very useful if you want to change a light bulb but as helpful as a chocolate fire guard should several tons of concrete floor decide to tumble down around your head. Furthermore, the Chief Engineer may have had access to the calculation sheets which would have stated the rebar requirements for said columns against what has actually been installed and based his recommendation on that. Oh well...

JetsetBKK, I don't believe your area of northern Karon is representative of the whole island. Maybe Patong I guess, but you have chosen and outlet for a catch basin lagoon. Sure, right there the water quality is probably not going to be real great as that water ferments in that lagoon, there doesn't seem to be great flow. Just that trickle where you set up.

Take it 3kms toward Kata and you'll get a 100% difference.

As for the OP and as Ol Croc has stated, water treatment plants are not a huge priority in SE Asia, I would tell Mysterion to go vacation somewhere else if he is so worried. New Zealand maybe.

That latest video shows that water flowing out currently is quite clean. The black bits seem to be vegetation.

It's a great pity Thais, and particularly the migrant workers here, have no concept of correctly disposing of rubbish.

That end of Karon Beach hosts the new, 5 star Centara Grand Resort. A friend of mine who works in Admin keeps me apprised of occupancy rates there. Last time we spoke, he said it was consistently at around 90%, even though it was well into low season.

A lot of Chinese obviously, but many different nationalities stay there, He particularly mentioned Japanese and Italians.

If there was sewage flowing into the sea nearby the place would go broke.

Sorry, didn't get notification of your responses because my post wasn't quoted. But you are both correct. That little lagoon is the only place where "dirty water" goes into the sea, but it is relatively clean at the moment because of the rain, I believe. And certainly the rest of the beach going south is spectacular. I know of no other outlets/streams that go into the beach to the south.

The only other point to note is that about 100 meters or so out to sea (at the point where the stream enters the sea) is where the sea water intake is for the water desalination plant. I just found an old video I took in April 2008 of the pipe being "relaid" with several wooden frames full of concrete attached to it...

Why all the concrete weights? Well, this is what the pipe looked like in October 2007:

pipe up P1010286.JPG

“Why all the concrete weights?”

I would suggest to help with the problem the problem of flotation caused by tidal action and the simple fact that pipe which looks like HDPE pipe or similar was not laid with a suitable anchoring system. I didn’t know that Phuket had a de-sal plant but that would explain the labelling on some of the bottled waters stating reverse osmosis as the source.

What does this look like to you Billy?

1465447593_1-org (1).jpg

Difficult to comment as most of the main steel cannot be seen and the spacing of the links cannot be verified for compliance although i did notice that the links did not look like high tension steel (no ribs) and possibly less tha 10mm in diameter which would be a very serious cause for concern. Mild steel links should not be specified for main structural elements. The links form the cage to which the main steel is arranged and are an important part in the control of shear stress in both coulmns and beams. Concrete testing will also form an important component of any report concerning this type of structural callapse.

But doesn't it look like shear? I'm no expert but it looks like overloading with lateral shear.

Again, difficult to say without the full report to make further comment although it would seem there was enough axial strength left in the column to prevent total collapse. Another thing to consider would be to confirm whether the failed columns are part of a column to column grid (basement to ground to first floor, etc.) or are they just supporting a structural floor. If column to column the possibility of total collapse is a real and present danger. If supporting a structural floor, the failed columns may cause the loading to adjacent columns unable to support their designed loading and fail too – disproportional collapse. They may want to consider draining that water where the boat is moored to mitigate some of the loading in that area – a metre cube of water weighs a metric tonne.

A question for any of the incumbent inmates there who run a business; would a building such as JC have/legally require commercial buildings insurance inclusive of public liability?

Time to call the monks in.

What does this look like to you Billy?

1465447593_1-org (1).jpg

Difficult to comment as most of the main steel cannot be seen and the spacing of the links cannot be verified for compliance although i did notice that the links did not look like high tension steel (no ribs) and possibly less tha 10mm in diameter which would be a very serious cause for concern. Mild steel links should not be specified for main structural elements. The links form the cage to which the main steel is arranged and are an important part in the control of shear stress in both coulmns and beams. Concrete testing will also form an important component of any report concerning this type of structural callapse.

"Are there any others in the same condition? It seems strange that the problem is only in an isolated area and not in a major load bearing area".

I would assume the problem is almost certainly not isolated and will extend to major load-bearing elements. I highly doubt they have engaged an experienced, well qualified team of engineers to inspect the entire building since this would have meant hiring foreigners and we know how the Thais love to do that. Also so much of the structure is hidden.

Has anyone seen signs of major construction work going on e.g. concrete trucks in the vicinity? At the very least those columns in the early photographs would need to be replaced as patching is unlikely to be an option. Of course I mean a proper option, I'm sure it's an option for the idiots running this place.

Does anyone have contacts with local engineers, architects or contractors to see what the grapevine can tell us?

I am disappointing the Gazette and News aren't pushing on this and it is unfortunate Phuketwan is no longer with us. I think this is a catastrophe in the making and will be severely limiting my visits, if indeed I make any at all. I seriously recommend others do the same.

Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate or insufficient strength, leading to mechanical failure, or due to a decrease in its durability. A few reasons which cause failure may also be due to cracking, moisture and corrosion. The cracking of the concrete is inevitable, cracking allows moisture to penetrate and corrode the reinforcement, however this problem can be controlled to a certain point using appropriate reinforcement, control joints, curing methodology and concrete mix design. The concrete then cracks either under excess loading, or due to internal effects such as early thermal shrinkage when it cures.

Ultimate failure leading to collapse can be caused by crushing of the concrete, when compressive stresses exceed its strength; by yielding or failure of the rebar, when bending or shear stresses exceed the strength of the reinforcement; or by bond failure between the concrete and the rebar.

A concrete failure due to shortage in shear resistance is the most serious type of failure because shear failures are preceded by little, if any, deflections or cracking to give advance warning. This may happen when not providing the correct concrete strength or dimension and not providing the right amount of reinforcement or positioning it properly. In the case of the columns within Jung Ceylon, this may have been a contributing cause to the sudden failure of the structural columns although the column in the photo appeared to have collapsed vertically after suffering both simultaneous shear and axial failures.

Some posters suggested some form of repair but reinstatements of this type of failure are very complicated and costly to the point of not being economic to do. If the failure is found to be localized and attendant structural members about the structural grid are deemed serviceable, partial demolition and rebuild could be one solution.

As to who will pay, answers on a postcard please.

I swim on Kata and Nai Harn beach often and have no issues…ahem…

Complete nonsense. A rail or tram system would be much more practical.

And this gem - "The budget for the project was tabled in 2013 by then-Phuket Marine Office Chief Phuripat Theerakulpisut. Mr Phuripat was transferred off the island to Nonthaburi Province last week."

I wonder how much Phuripat planned to 'take' from this nonsense project ...

More practical? You’ll have to go with me on this one and I hope it helps you to grasp some basic engineering principles.

First, note the topography of the island where said proposed rail is proposed to run. Maximum grade for trucks/bogies, say 2.2% reducing to 0.4% less where curves are in the range of 500m. It can therefore be noted that unless the system is elevated and tunnels bored through the mountains (above mean water level) your argument for practicalities may need revising. I normally charge a fee for this but I'm in a generous mood today.

The Russians are broke. As are the Americans, the Brits, the Chinese, and most everyone else. (Except for the Nordic nations).

Brits?...I’m not skint and neither are many of the quality Brit tourists I know that visit Lalaland. No Sir, I think there are many and varied reasons why folk are not going there...kop some of NKM’s sermons for the unfortunate low-down. Arh, the good old days...

Thank you for the sense you made of the absolutely mindless quote Billy the hat made. Wow. What can you say. I know a lot of people in the U.S. with very serious cash. They simply choose not to come here. Many reasons. Sure, 92% of the population is hurting in the west. But, many are doing well. The Chinese have more money than ever, in recent history. The coup really hurt tourism. The continued rising prices here really hurts tourism. Incredibly dumb hotel owners raising prices when occupancy is down really hurts tourism. The lack of law and order here really hurts tourism. A nationalistic leader who puts his foot in his mouth daily really hurts tourism.

"92% of the population is hurting in the west"....ridiculous waffle