oldcpu

I hear you ... i read what you note. But I think we both know the current practice is different in cases involving some foreigners. My wife had the view (likely incorrect) that I needed a TIN even thou my income not assessable. I did not know what was correct. She applied online for a tax ID for me (via some Thai language site). She had to upload my passport, pink-ID, etc ... and provided other information on me. This goes to the Central RD office in Bangkok. Guess what they do? .... I'll tell you. They pass the application to Phuket RD. What did Phuket RD do? They called my wife and I up on the phone (my wife answered and talked to them). They noted they would not give me a tax ID even thou I was spending > 180 days in Thailand (closer to 300 days per year in Thailand) as I was not remitting income to Thailand. But ... but ... but what about "CRS" that some post on-and-on-and-on about (not you posting that - granted). It was never mentioned. I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals. So ? Bangkok RD passes this to the local office to decide. I don't dispute what you typed ... but the facts are also that neither the HQ Bangkok RD nor the local provincial RD will provide myself tax-ID at this time. I am not saying do not file an income tax return nor am I saying don't go try to get a Thai TIN. I am saying I tried and failed (with full disclosure to them as to my finances). Everyone needs to decide on their own approach.

Yes - true that Canada requires one to report their global income, but if one is not a Canadian resident one does NOT have to pay to Canada tax on one's global income (if a non-resident to Canada). Canada joined CRS when? In 2015. ok? Canada going back to 1972 !!!!! (when I first started filing Canadian income tax returns) required global income be reported by Canadian tax residents. There was no CRS then. Canada requiring global tax to be reported never has had anything to do with CRS. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never properly researched this. They are just putting out blind and badly formulated opinions IMHO.

... and go a step further please and read what needs to be reported. There is no FULL disclosure. Both Thailand and Canada, per CRS agreement are NOT required to provide any information on government monitored/registered accounts. In Canada this refers to RRSPs and RRIFs and some other registered Canadian government approved accounts for Canadian residents or Canadian citizens (including those abroad) to place their money and have it grow tax free. There is MASSIVE wrong extrapolation on the views of CRS by some , believing it has massive over-reach far more than what is the truth. .

The Thai tax law lists income that is NOT to be included in tax calculations. Checkout section-42 of the Thailand tax code states: The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation: It goes on to list items - note item -17: 17. Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. Then look at Thailand Revenue Department Ministerial directives: Paw.161/162 which together indicate any foreign income from savings & income before 1-January-2024 are tax exempt (which suggests non-assessable income). Also, some foreign pensions/income, dependent on the source country DTA with Thailand, are only taxable in the source country and not in Thailand (it depends on the country - for some others only Thailand can tax the Thai-residents), which again suggests non-assessable income. Then examine the Thai tax return forms, keeping section-42 of the Thai tax code in mind, where in these tax forms there there is NO place to list the exemptions. The Thai tax forms have no place for deduction of this 'ministerial exempt' income, .. why? Possibly because per the Thai tax code section-42 shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculations, and likely such (not assessable income) shall not be included in a Thai Tax form per Thailand law. Kerryd, you have your references. Do not misconstrue my post above as saying you should not file a tax return. I do not know your financial situation. But please do consider Thailand tax code, consider Thailand ministerial directives, consider the DTA with the country from whence your income comes from, and consider whether (and how much if any) foreign income you remitted to Thailand (noting in particular PAW-161/162 and the DTA with the source county of your foreign income). If you are still puzzling, and if you have no TIN , no one will stop you from going to your local Tax office and see if they will assign you a TIN and assess your tax situation. You may wish to bring a Thai-English translator with you. Once again Kerryd, you have your references. The next step is yours.

By the Canada-Thailand DTA, Canada has exclusive rights over all Canadian sourced pensions (or similar remunerations). Thailand has no taxation rights over those. That DTA is pretty clear on that. Of course you will need to pay Canadian tax and file a Canadian tax return on such.

One's portfolio structure need not always be cast in stone ... but I agree, there are alternatives. I've heard and read that view point before - and I note it works for now ... but for those with the money for the 800k in the bank approach, the agent approach (so to save a few thousand baht after all expenses added up) is not one I would consider for 1 second to adopt. There was a time (back in 1998-to-1999) in Thailand when one could stay in Thailand pretty much visa-exempt and never leave the country. Just make arrangements with a local immigration officer (after hours), pass them one's passport, get the passport back a few days later and another exit/entry was 'magically' in the passport, even thou one never left the area where one was in Thailand. Eventually the abuse reached the levels where the Thai government cracked down on it, and the immigration officers involved were disciplined, and foreigners whose passports had the relevant (illegal exit/entry) stamps were made 'persona non-grata' to Thailand if the stamps spotted in their passports at immigration (when entering/leaving Thailand). Suddenly the foreign embassies and consulates became busy with reported lost or hopelessly damaged passports that required urgent replacements (as the foreigners with the illegal stamps were destroying their passports so to get new passports without the stamps). TOO MANY adopted that approach of paying an immigration officer after hours. Why could that be relevant? If every one would take your "laughter" at them serious, and then go the agent route like you (with no 800k THB in the bank) then I dare say this would be suddenly MUCH more in the light - and there could be a crackdown stopping such. Who would that hurt? It won't hurt you with the money. It would hurt those who don't have the 800k.. So for the 'wealthy' to abuse this workaround (to make relative peanuts of some more money) from my view, is incredibly selfish. But each to their own. Regardless, some of those who stick with non-immigrant visa (type-O/OA) approach might end up paying Thai taxes on foreign income, where those on an LTR might not have to. So if one qualifies for the LTR visa, my recommendation would be to apply for such a visa - as the LTR visa at present reads to me to be one of a number of good legal tax management approaches.

Dependent on how your income is structured, if not immediately structured the way BoI wants (to approve of an LTR visa), it reads like you may have a couple of years to re-structure your finances (if necessary and if OK by you) so to meet BoI LTR visa requirements and stay 100% legal in regards to taxation. Best wishes in your efforts.

I believe this depends on how one's income and finances outside of Thailand is structured. One only need tell Thailand BoI about the exact amount needed to obtain the LTR Visa. Significant amounts in excess of LTR visa requirements, if from different sources, need not be mentioned to BoI, dependent on how such is structured. Thailand is also constrainted in taxation to consider the influence of its own wealthy class and needs to consider foreign DTAs ( as not all favour Thailand) and the individual applying may also wish to consider constraints in the OECD CRS where not all foreign accounts are reportable to CRS.

If I can use a comparison, that strikes me as going out of one's way to wave a red flag in the face of a bull, when instead one can quietly and legally walk in a different direction. Or another saying: Let sleeping dogs lie.

Thailand may indeed at sometime require foreign income to be reported, but if it does my opinion is that it will NOT be due to CRS. Here is a Revenue Thailand document, that provides information relevant to the Thailand implementation to follow CRS. https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf Its pretty clear from that document that most of what CRS is trying to do is to minimize tax avoidance by businesses, as the details relevant to individuals is significantly less (although still relevant to individuals to minimize individual tax avoidance). Nowhere thou, in the Thailand RD document, does it state that information on foreign income will be collected by Thailand and provided to the CRS. Further, that Thai RD document also describes "Non reporting FI (Financial Institution)" which are not obligated to provide information on specific types of accounts to CRS. It even goes further in an Appendix to note neither retirement nor pension accounts nor 'non-retirement tax favoured' accounts need be reported (they are excluded from CRS reporting). Which infers such pension income, governed by the Thai government, need not be provided to CRS. I read the same with regard to Canada which I already noted. The logic here is that these (and their income) are already government monitored and hence CRS monitoring is NOT required. This just further confirms that opinions that state ALL global / foreign income must be reported to CRS ARE not substantiated, and its just an opinion, and further, possibly a fallacious opinion. Note thou, that TINs (tax information numbers) must be provided to OECD via CRS, but it is then up to CRS to ask for more information on income, if they wish. However they (CRS) may get NO INFORMATION on pensions and such even IF they (CRS) request such. Of interest in the Thailand document are the details where Thailand needs to provide the TIN information to CRS, where guidance is given to Financial Institutions on how they are to go about such. Don't get me wrong, ...I fully believe to follow tax laws in this world. Having typed that, I find NOTHING (in capital letters deliberately) to prove that OECD for the CRS requires all member countries to report the global (foreign plus local) income of their tax residents. Rather I find the opposite, where some resident accounts are even excluded from reporting to CRS. .

I don't dispute Canada and for that matter Germany require foreign income to be declared. What I dispute is your unsubstantiated (ie opinion) claim that reporting all foreign income is a CRS requirement. You can't point to a CRS requirement. This is simply an extrapolation by yourself , with no OECD article on CRS to backup your extrapolation - meaning this is no more than an opinion of yours.

With respect, the common advice for those considering a move to Thailand, is to rent first and not buy a place. Why? The logic is to not commit to stay in Thailand until one is more familiar with the culture, the laws and the area. IMHO the same is true for a Visa. Even as a multi- million dollar millionaire, it makes sence to come to Thailand and obtain a Type-O with one year extensions. Then after 1 or 2 tears, if all is well, only then switch to the very good 10 year visa. So I tend to take statements claiming few new residents attracted with a grain of salt. Rather I believe many of those with the money are also prudent , and many don't immediately charge into an LTR when there are graceful ways to first obtain a permission to stay in Thailand, before then obtaining the very good LTR visa.

Apologies, but if you have no official reference then this is just an opinion of yours. I have no qualms about providing my tax TINs ( German & Canadian), and I have done so. I stay legal. But I seriously dislike misinformation or opinions put out as fact, even if I am not affected.

I am not getting a Thai tax ID. I am on an LTR-WP. I am also not bringing any money into Thaiand ( I previously brought in a lot when I was not a Thai tax resident and also brought in some prior to 1 Jan 2024 after becoming a Thai tax resident). I also have a pink ID ( where in some cases this if activated can be a Thai tax ID) , albeit I don't believe that is relevant.

Are you certain you are not confusing the requirement to provide a foreign TIN with the requirement to provide foreign income ( ie income from a different jurisdiction of the residents country). Do you care to show your official reference for this alleged requirement to report all foreignincome? ( and not someone's opinion in the press nor opinion at an arguably misinformed tax advisor brief)? I can find the TIN submission requirement but I find nothing about all foreign income requirement reporting by CRS. I only find reference to income from the reporting country jurisdiction, and even that has exclusion caveats. Also, note for example, per Canadian government documents, Canada is not required to provide to CRS account information on retirement plan accounts such as RRSP nor RRIF. Despite the large reach of CRS, it doesn't have legal access to information on all accounts from which income is derived. Pardon me for being skeptical, but if there are only opinions with no official documents to support one's statement, in this day and age of fake news I will remain skeptical.

I think it important not to call such just a "retirement visa, but either use the full name "type O retirement" which the consolate did, or if one prefers call it a "type O". The reason is one can stay in Thailand for reason of retirement with different Visas. Stating just "retirement visa" is highly ambigous as that term could mean very different Visas.

Only if you remit your German pension to Thailand. Possibly you have no choice and need to bring that pension income into Thailand ASAP for living expenses. But if you have a lot of pre 1-Jan-2024 income/savings, you could bring that savings money into Thailand instead. That is exempt tax. Only when the amount of pre-1-Jan-2024 money runs out will you then need to bring that post 31-Dec-2023 German pension into Thailand, and yes, at that time, you may be required to pay Thai tax on it.

From that link I note: "Patcha explained that some expats were not required to obtain a Thai tax identification number or fill in a tax return. These were foreigners present in Thailand for less than 180 days in the calendar year 2024, those who had not transmitted cash from abroad, those who had transferred only income they had earned up to 31 December 2023 and holders of the 10-year Long Term Residence (LTR) Visa." ... That supports the view of some that associated foreugn income for those quoted cases that the income ftom those cases are not assessable and are nominally not to be used as justification for a tax ID. .. I speculate here that perhaps this may still be under discussion internal to the Thai RD.

That pretty much rules out the WGC for you then, as it requires a $500K US$ equiv investment in Thailand That is part of the point of setting up an offshore company located in a legal tax haven. Dependent on where one resides, income from such a LEGAL offshore company might be taxable, or might not be taxable. If on an LTR-WP, or LTR-WGC, or LTR-WFTP visa, not taxable. But if not on those Thai visas, then if a Thai tax resident would likely need to pay Thai tax from the offshore company income (that you pay yourself) which is remitted to Thailand. There would likely also be no DTA (Double Tax Agreement) for such a case. For the year during the setup of the company (and associated 1st year of dividend payments) prior to going for an LTR-visa, I assume one would stay in no country long enough to be a tax resident. And then when a Thai tax resident the Thai LTR-WP visa would help one legally optimise/minimize their tax situation. Indeed - but a lot of what we read about in the press were in essence cases of illegal tax avoidance schemes using an offshore company. There are perfectly legal ways to use such an offshore company, dependent on the laws of the country where one resides. ie follow the laws of the country where one resides. If you are age 50 or older, and if you can provide a formal tracking of regular income (via your own company) then the LTR-Wealthy Pensioner may be the best visa for you. Edit : and if you are not 50 ... then simply travel ,and spend no more than 5 months in each country. My experience (in my 70s) is it is far easier to travel when one is in their 30s and 40s than it is when in one's 70s. .

Any chance to setup a small company where you are the only employee (ie both CEO and Treasurer and Secretary). Then hold an annual meeting in which you declare a dividend will be provided to the only employee (you). Document this officially in the annual meeting minutes. Pay yourself regularly (every month) the dividend amount, depositing it in your bank account. Your company can obtain this amount of money for the dividend payment by an appropriate conversion of part of your crypto currency to cash for the monthly dividend. Likely you would need ?? one year record of the regular dividend deposits into your foreign bank account, which, together with the annual meeting minutes, possibly could satisfy BoI ? I am just speculating. I know a few decades ago I once had a BVI (British Virgin Islands) company and a requirement to keep that company (in addition to the small annual fee) was I had to have an official meeting every year, with official minutes of the meeting, and send those minutes to the organization which setup various BVI companies (such as mine). ... So this IS all above board and legitimate if done properly (ie done legally) - paying taxes if and where required, of course (and don't pay where not required).

That will be interesting if such were to transpire (and the $80k minimum lowered for LTR-WP). I went the $40k US$ equivalent income + investment (in Thailand route) using my Thailand condo purchase + 2-million Thai Baht in Thai government bonds to meet the $250K US$ equivalent investment requirement. However for my year-2028 reproof of finances point, I have already started the restructuring of my finances to reach the higher $80K US$ equiv income (so that I don't need to repurchase another 2-million THB in Thai government bonds). I will watch this with interest, although likely by the time such is announced, I will have already financially restructured. The restructuring is no big deal - other than takes a small amount of effort to change how funds are setup. Precision is needed of course when dealing with money, so I do need to be careful when doing such.

I believe the easing you are thinking of is for the Wealthy Global Citizen, which is a different category from the Wealthy Pensioner category. I don't believe that there was any change to the Wealthy Pensioner category. There has been a lot of speculation on this topic, and time will likely tell whose speculation is closest to the truth. My speculation is for the LTR WP, WGC, and WFTP ( ?) Visas that all foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand will be tax free in Thailand regardless as to which year the income earned.

Yes, agree. One approach could be to come to Thailand in 2025 with type-O visa (or visa exempt and apply for a type-O). Open a Thai bank account. For that first year be certain to spend less than 180 days in Thailand (such that one is a non-resident for tax purposes for that 1st year). But as a non-resident in 2025 bring a lot of money into Thailand from one's year 2025 income (as much as possible). It won't be taxable in Thailand as a non-resident to Thailand. And then in 2026 to 2029 (or later) if one then spends >180 days in Thailand, only bring in money saved from before 1-Jan-2024. That should legally minimize one's tax exposure to Thailand for a number of years (if one has lots of savings from before 1-Jan-2024). Of course one will still pay VAT on all Thailand purchases.

Some time back (6 months ago or so ?? ) I purchased a very small mutual fund via Kaskikorn Bank. They had me fill in some form that reminded me of a W8BEN (intend I think to satisfy USA requirements) ... It may have been a W8BEN. I can't recall offhand. Its not a big thing for me as do try my best to follow tax regulations (and I also try my best to legally manage my taxation exposure).

Yes for certain, From an LTR-WP visa holder's perspective, its a great visa.