oldcpu

Can you prove the money was savings from before 1-Jan-2024? (perhaps unlikely given this was for a loan you wish to pay back - but I don't know your financial details - and I do not want to make any assumptions) My understanding (and others can correct me if I am wrong) is if you had the money needed to payback the loan, in a foreign account prior to 1-Jan-2024 (which the RD issued in Nov-2023), then per Paw.162 you can bring it into Thailand and it will not be taxable and possibly < unsure > not assessable. Again - others can correct me if wrong. If it is not assessable then it need not be declared.

When I was on a Type-O I switched from Bangkok Bank to Krungsri, where Krungsri would issue the paperwork on the spot. To avoid complications, I had the 800k seasoned in Krungsri for a year prior to switching from Bangkok Bank to Krungsri, ... but I suspect it must be possible to switch without doing such (for someone who does not have the extra funds). There are good things about Bangkok Bank, but for one who lives in Phuket, issuing the paperwork quickly (needed for proof of the 800K THB in one's Bangkok bank account) is not one of their good things. They (Bangkok Bank) are slow in doing that.

I'm on an LTR visa now and no longer need to do a 90-day report. But I was on Type-OA/O visas for some years, where I did have to do 90-day reports. The immigration office I would go to is in Phuket. I can't recall the on-line ever working for me (and I never ceased trying). However Phuket immigration has a 'drive through' where one remains in their car and drives to a booth at immigration, and one can pass their passport through the car window. It normally works great - and its only a ~15 minute car drive away from where I live. I also recall once where I forgot (almost) to do my 90-day report. It was the evening of the 6th day AFTER the 90-day report due, and I realized I forgot. The next morning I rushed to Phuket immigration. The drive through booth was closed ! So I parked my car and went into the immigration building. The Phuket volunteers who do the initial screening advised me I was likely out of luck, as the computer system was down, and probably I would have to return a day later, and pay the fine for doing my report late !! But at my request they gave me a 'waiting #' so I could talk to a Thai immigration officer (IO). When my # called, I very politely chatted to the IO. He filled in some paper work (so my info could be entered later by immigration when the computers came back online) and confirmed my 90-day successful. No fine as I was within the 7-day grace period. This was extra work on the immigration part - and it was me who was using every day of the '7-day' grace given for late 90-day reports. Still - I was very happy with immigration in this case. Phuket immigration is almost always VERY busy - with big lines. In general I am impressed with the immigration in this province, given that even after the office closes, the employees are often still there working late, processing the paperwork.

Brings back memories - getting my Yellow Book & Pink-ID was not easy. Fortunately I had the translations and certifications done previous when registering my foreign marriage to my Thai wife (we were married in Canada) here in Thailand. ... I recall (from my perspective) it being a bit of pain to get the Yellow book & pink-ID. I asked my wife a couple of times (is this book/ID necessary?) , and received in return the "WIFE LOOK" (don't question her) ... so we put up with the bureaucracy and eventually obtained both the Yellow Book & Pink ID. My wife was more happy about this than myself (I was just happy to get it all over with regardless as to the outcome), ... and as I typed before "A happy wife is a happy life". 😂

Assuming he was quoted accurately in context, that tax expert should research more. Phuket branch of Thai RD refused to give me a TIN even though I spend >180 days here. Other factors also come in to the equation.

My understanding on this (perhaps speculation is the absolute best wording) is that after the directions/orders of 161 and 162, the Thai RD will possibly consider any money brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023 may have been income - and an expat (if audited) will need to show to RD they had such money prior to 1-jan-2024 (keeping DTAs in mind which could change the assessment). I speculate it would not matter how one buy's/sells/structures the money. If one can not in an audit show one had the cash (and possibly equity equivalent value in a currency) before 1-Jan-2024 then a remittance may be considered income, and the justification become less solid - and perhaps one may have problems in an audit (pure speculation by myself) if the remitted money can not be shown to exist in some form with a specific value on 31-Dec-2023 ... I should state also, that DTAs definitely come in to play here. Of course this tracking of the origin of remitted income before 1-Jan-2024 is clear if held in cash before1-Jan-2024 .. and possibly obscured a bit for equity income ... but nominally one transfers (via financial institutions) cash into the country. If money is in a brokerage account, one can typically (at least I can) obtain a statement for 31-Dec-2023 giving the net value of one's equities as a currency figure (such as US$ or Canadian $ or Euros or some other currency). I see that paper record as vital. However my speculation is no different from anyone else's speculation.

Many of the expats I talk to have never heard of the differentiation. With respect, I think your understanding is so advanced here - that things are now 100% clear and correct for you, are not yet for others - and they don't see the difference (yet).

With regard to that link, it does not list any exceptions ... and it does not differentiate assessable income from not-assessable income. I assume (incorrectly? correctly? ) that difference is important. I just watched a relatively recent EXPATTAX youtube video intended for Canadians residing in Thailand. They claimed one whose only income is from a Canadian pension or from a Canadian RRSP (which is sort of like a government registered privately managed pension) would (1) not have to file a Thai tax return, and (2) not pay Thai tax on such income, despite residing in Thailand > 180 days. One would thou pay Canadian tax on such. They reference the Thai/Canadian DTA as their justification for that. They give a hypothetical case study were a Canadian expat living in Thailand brings in 2-million baht in one calendar/tax year from their RRSP and claim for such a case, if that is the only income, that no Thai tax return is needed. Again, the DTA is their justification. The point here is that I assume such would be considered not-assessable income, and hence the Thai baht amount I quoted not applicable as even thou the link you posted does not state such, it refers to only assessable income. But for expats - I do believe it is very important to distinguish and accurately know which of their income sources are assessable and which are not assessable. I see no mentioning aspects associated with assessable/not-assessable income as a major failing in that link (assuming of course I am correct that the difference between assessable and 'not assessable' is important). For an expat who does not know better, they may simply assume all income is assessable, and that may not be the case.

On the subject of the Canada/Thailand DTA, and Thailand tax aspects for former residents of Canada who now live in Thailand, EXPATTAX services have a Youtube Video: They mostly state what most of us (who follow the taxation issues) already know. They did state a number of things, some of which were relevant to me, and confirmed what I deduced from the Canada/Thailand DTA: They have a slide on pensions from Canada. They claim if one's only source of income is pensions from Canada, then such pension is only taxable in Canada, and further the claim one does not need to file a Thai tax return for such pension money brought into Thailand if it is the only income. But if capital gains, dividends, or rental income are also brought into Thailand then a Thai tax return is required. They present some hypothetical 'case studies'. Their case study-1 is a Canadian, who is married and lives in Thailand and receives equivalent of 2-million THB from their RRSP. According to EXPATTAX, in such a case of money withdrawn from an RRSP (if that and other Canadian pensions are the only income source), no Thai income tax return need be filed and there is no Thai tax on the RRSP amount (they note in such a case, tax on the RRSP withdrawal amount will thou need to be paid in Canada). They also give hypothetical case studys on capital gains, and it starts getting a lot more complicated then. Of course such videos, are in part to advertise their services, where they provide their website and a contact email address. The video is VERY Canadian expat specific, ... its almost an hour long ... and it can be quite slow at times (at least for me it was). However, if one looks at the youtube description under the video, they give a time/linked list of what they discuss, where I believe that is very useful, so one is not forced to sit down through the entire video.

Interesting. You typed "USB" EUR account, but later you noted "UOB" account. I assume "USB" a typo for "UOB". So for UOB you noted you had to go to the Bangkok Bank branch where you opened your account (which was in Bangkok) to transfer Euros from Thailand foreign currency account to Belgium (without going through a Thai baht conversion). I note your Bangkok Bank foreign currency account was in US$. Were you trying in that case to transfer US$ from Bangkok bank to a Belgium based US$ foreign currency account? If so, I also wonder, did you investigate if the same was true with Bangkok Bank that was the case with UOB? ie was your Bangkok Bank branch US$ account initially in Bangkok or N.Ratchasima? Thanks for sharing.

I am not keen on looking at an 'integrity legal' video. Maybe on another day. Note this UK government website link on the UK/Thai double tax agreement: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

Not that it affects myself (as it does not) but there is, I believe, a DTA between Thailand and the UK.

To be more precise, if I had closed the Canadian RRSP and brought the money out in one shot, the tax rate to Canada would have been 33% (federal) + 25.75% (provincial) = 58.75% (ie even larger than 50% tax). So from a legal tax management perspective, as the years go by I will pull out a much smaller amount out of the RRSP (soon to be changed to something similar called an RRIF) every year, which will have a much lower taxation due to the yearly amounts withdrawn being smaller than the 'one shot' approach. Of course this is unique to me (and maybe some other Canadian expats from Canada who have very large RRSPs). Everyone needs to look at their own finances and tax management.

Yes - but I did not want to provide too much detail in my response in my above posts. But since you raise the point ..... Singapore/HK/Switzerland were only applicable for maybe 20% of my frozen assets (by the brokerage & bank in Canada) ... that could be transferred to them (but I did not). 80% were in what is known in Canada as a Registered Retirement Savings Plan (RRSP) [similar conceptually I think, to a US 401k] . This is a tax free account, where money is taxed only when it is withdrawn from the account. One can NOT transfer such a registered account to Singapore/HK/Switzerland without paying a massive amount of tax for the one shot transfer ... ie likely 50% tax ON THE ENTIRE AMOUNT likely due to the very large amount of money involved. So another approach was needed. And I am happy that the Thai TIN I provided IS legal. The Thailand RD official said as much himself, with the caveat it was not active for online tax submission. So I passed that exact same information to the Canadian financial institutions which they were perfectly happy to accept. They were told the TIN is not yet active. That saved me paying 50% tax on a VERY large amount of money (ie saved 50% which would have been the tax if the money in the RRSP were to be pulled out of the RRSP in one tax year and sent abroad).

I am probably an outlier in my view here - so I expect many confused/sad/laughing icons as a result. I agree that the Thai authorities don't worry that some affluent foreigners will be lost. The Thai tax authorities are intent on going after the affluent Thai (who have managed their assets to minimize tax) and if they impact foreigners (who live here in Thailand as well) then so be it - they are just going to treat foreigners the same in this case as they will attempt to treat the affluent Thai. And in parallel, they have programs such as the LTR visa, which BoI advertise as tax exempt for foreign income - intended to attract the affluent foreigners. Of course, this begs the question - how long will the LTR visa tax exemption for foreign income last ? But at least here they have a way to keep those the foreigners that they vedit/prove are wealthy to their criteria. So I don't see this as arrogance at all. Nor ignorance. They are trying to do their job to earn revenue for the country that it can then spend on the citizens/infrastructure/services. Many western countries, for residents, tax global income. Thailand is not there (yet) although clearly some senior people in the Thai RD would like to tax global income. Further, some western countries even try to tax non-residents to their country for global income. Case in point: Practically every second year I receive an official postal mail from Revenue Canada offering to treat me as a Canadian tax resident (even thou I reside in Thailand) as by doing so I could take advantage of more Canadian resident tax deductions. But by doing so, I would also have to pay tax to Canada on all my global income - which would cost me a LOT more money. Is the Canadian Revenue department being arrogant and ignorant? No - they are simply hoping I will be (ignorant) so that they can get more tax money from me - by taxing my global income, when I don't reside in Canada (but I reside in Thailand). I am thankful that Thailand, has what I consider more favourable (to myself) tax rules than Canada, and some other countries that I won't mention. I concede that, what should I say, 'the golden years' in Thailand re: taxation management may be starting to fade away ... but the affluent foreigner will likely find ways around such while still staying in Thailand,... possibly via LTR visa, or possibly by staying for only 179 days per year in Thailand, but ways will be found.

Its the best number I could provide. Clearly. The Phuket RD offiical himself stated it would be the tax ID # once activated (for online tax returns). That is 'straight from the horses mouth' as the saying goes. Further, I advised both the foreign bank and foreign brokerage, that the number would be the tax ID but it was not yet activated. That is the 100% truth. And they were happy with that. So you say its shaky? Why ? And what for me was the alternative? If I did not provide a tax ID, I would have been forced to close a substantial foreign account (or have it frozen) and in another case not open a foreign account (with a substantial amount). By my proceeding, I was able to trade on my new brokerage account resulting in a substantial financial return. Not as much as I would have liked (as my trading was frozen for over 1/2 year) but still by my books, substantial. All I did was tell truth and follow up with what was told me by a Thailand RD official, and provide the foreign banks that exact same information. A potential tax-ID that was not yet active - which they accepted. The alternative would have been to close my accounts with a massive amount in cash, not insured as it greatly exceeded the amount countries will insure in bank accounts. That IMHO was FAR FAR FAR more shaky (shaky because not having such cash funds 100% insured ) as compared to structured in more appropriate assets. I guess as the saying goes " you pays your money and you takes your chances". I think my passing on the truth was the best course of action (ie a likely tax-ID that was not yet activated). The approach to NOT provide such as a potential (yet to be activated) tax-ID is IMHO FAR FAR more shaky (shaky as without providing the tax-ID I would have had very large uninsured amounts in cash). .

Perhaps this is location/province specific? I applied online - which goes to Bangkok. Bangkok passed it to Phuket. Phuket RD phoned, and when advised of my details (myself an expat resident who stays > 180 days in Thailand , whose income is from outside of Thailand, and who is NOT bringing that money into Thailand as of 31-Dec-2023), they stated I did not need a tax-ID, nor need to file a tax return, and they would not active (for an online tax submission) my pink-ID # - even though they also noted nominally my pink-ID# would nominally be used for my Thai tax ID. Whether my pink-ID # would work for a snail mail (or hand delivered) tax return - I do not know. I do not plan to put that to the test for the near future. IF and when I start bringing money back into Thailand , I might then try the tax return hand delivered method (note also I am on an LTR visa - however the Phuket RD tax official NEVER HEARD of such - so that is not part of this discussion). NOR do I plan to pound on the Phuket RD tax officials desk and tell him is wrong. Its against my policy to cause RD officials to lose face if such can be avoided. THAT IS THE OPPOSITE of what happened to you. What can I say other than This Is Thailand.

Hopefully a tax clearance certificate will not be required for annual extensions. I do believe the tax clearance certificate requirement is still on the books (it was once required for exit out of Thailand if one had certain visas), but its enforcement was dropped over a decade ago (maybe dropped much longer ago than that). so I suppose it could be brought back again if a very strong desire was to do so. BUT I don't think it is all straight forward ... If one already has a LOT of savings in Thailand, one could easily go for years and never bring money into the country, and if retired never 'qualify' for a Thai tax ID (an example of this is myself BEFORE when I had a Type-O/OA visa). Ergo in that case, one who does not have a tax-ID would not nominally qualify for a tax certificate. Or would they? Further, a tax certificate would thou create a bit more work for immigration to have to collect the certificates, and possibly even spend time confirming such certificate is valid via contact with the RD who presumably would issue the certificate. I suspect immigration (and possibly the RD who have to issue the certificates ?? ) may not want that extra work ... so lets hope that does not come to pass.

You should be fine. As I understand it, the pink ID number is your tax filing number. It only needs activation for use with the online filing system, paper returns don't require activation. I note I also used the yellow-book/pink-ID # to buy Thai government bonds via Bangkok Bank (where I believe such then goes to the Bank of Thailand). Bangkok Bank staff entered that number into the computer application system to obtain the bonds, and I successfully purchased 2-million THB of Thai government bonds. That was almost 2 years ago - and I have had no problems with the Bank of Thailand. They regularly postal mail me the status of the bonds. When I take the Bond book to Bangkok Bank, they regularly update the Bond book. No one has complained about my using a 'tax-ID' number for Thai government bond purchase that is not activated yet for online use in filing a on-line tax return. And back to the point - I do try to be fully legal, and I think if one was advised by a Thai RD official that (even thou one is a resident of Thailand) that one does not yet qualify for a Thai tax ID, but that when one does, the pink-ID# / yellow book # can then be used as the Tax ID, then, it is perfectly acceptable to provide such # to a foreign bank/broker, with the noted caveat that it may not yet be active.

As noted to you Thai "Tax residency is based on the number of days per year, it resets every year on 1 January. " For other countries than Thailand, it really depends on the country. I know for Canada (and I believe for Germany) one does have to be precise in the connections to those countries that one severs (and does not reconnect) to ensure non-residency is maintained. Its important IMHO that one follows the law in such cases - ie ... important that one has good legal financial taxation management.

Agreed, ... and 161 and 162 gave some good guidelines on what to do in the remaining months of year 2023 - which my wife and I made full advantage of, bringing a LOT of savings from outside of Thailand, into Thailand before the end of the calendar year 2023. As I noted, 161 and 162 have provided some additional guidelines for one to follow in managing one's finances. I guess my 'quibble' is that they are not law (ergo not in stone) but rather they are the current not challenged RD interpretation.

I don't have a fear there. There is no written law that one MUST pay tax everywhere. Rather individual countries have taxation laws that one MUST abide by - and I fully agree with following the laws. I 100% agree with abiding by tax laws. CRS would IMHO only help a government go after someone who is illegally not paying taxes they legally should pay. But legally managing one's finances to reduce ones tax exposure breaks no laws. In my case of using the Yellow-book/Pink-ID # as a tax ID number for a foreign bank & foreign broker: (1)I first applied for a tax-ID and was refused (2) I also obtained confirmation from Thai RD that the pink-ID/yellow book could be used as a tax ID (but that it needed to be activated - which the Thai RD official would not do as I did not meet his criteria for the activation), and (3) when I passed the pink-ID/yellow-book # to the foreign (non-Thai) broker/bank, I made it clear that the number was not yet active (in accordance with what the Thai RD official told me). The foreign bank/broker could have refused my providing a not active tax-ID number, but they decided to accept such. And it is a legitimate number. I have NO worries about it being traced back to me. Maybe if it is, then the Thai RD will activate the number - which they would NOT do when I asked them to do so. I think if one follows the law, one need not worry about CRS.

yes true ... 161 and 162 are departmental instructions and orders, they are NOT law, but the are the REVENUE DEPARTMENTS interpretation - they are not the Thai courts interpretation. And yes true - no one as of yet wants to challenge the Revenue Department in a court. I know for 100% certain I would not challenge them. Rather, I use 161 and 162 as part of the guidelines in helping me to structure my finances.

Its a good solution if you are compliant with Thai law. The Thailand RD official (Phuket office) specifically advised me that if I was NOT bringing any foreign money into Thailand, that I had no need for a tax ID, I had no need to file a Thai tax return. So you are saying they are going to fine me for what reason?? I am most interested to learn - as I try 100% to be legally compliant. Now Yes - I AGREE 100% that one should not try to avoid taxes if one is required to pay taxes ... but there are clear legal scenarios where one does NOT have a tax residency and yet one needs to provide a tax ID to a bank or broker. So I TOTALLY disagree with you. This CAN be a good solution - but do be aware of the laws of the states where one is obtaining their income from, and be compliant with such.

Por 161 and 162, are both set in stone. With respect - they are not law. One translation (of 161 and 162) is they are "Departmental Instruction" or "Departmental Orders". Some youtube bloggers (of which I place NO Faith) speculate they could be challenged in court. One will NOT see me challenging such. Still - I speculate (and speculate is the operative word) that the Thai RD will ultimately want the Thai law amended to incorporate these Departmental instructions/orders. But that is 'speculation' - where given the changes being talked about - that is just more speculation to add to the pile..