onni4me

You (onni4me) seem to be a little unclear of your intentions: "At this point I think pressing him with ultimatum would probably not be beneficial" is rather different from "I have given one month to come up with some sort of an answer." Honesty is of paramount importance in most long-term relationships, but so is consistency.

Well, there has been a bit of communication between him and me in the meantime. I don't want to make an ultimatum like: "You do like I say or else..." so I don't want him to try to please me but choose himself (which makes me fell gutted, of course but I see no other option).

We talked and he asked some time to sort his feelings and clear his head and I suggested that it would be good if that could be done before New Year so maybe we could start from a clean slate. He agreed so he has to decide now what it will be. This is by no way easy on me, I am shifting from a mood to another.

What I can make of all this is that he is deeply sorry what he has been doing but is still emotionally confused what to do. According to him he hasn't told the third party about me so it might just be a fling. Also I see him being a bit unsecure of himself where he is standing in all this and somehow thought maybe he felt sort of empowered or had a boost of self-confidence from the affair.

Remains to be seen. I try to keep an open and positive mind even I would like to go out and scream...

Difficult to say whose right and whose wrong. I guess time will tell. Just do what is in your own heart. Eventually the other one will corn back. But the damage is done and so great... Would the love be the same?

Maybe the love will be different or even stronger, who knows?

I have given one month to come up with some sort of an answer. I feel that whatever comes needs to be addressed honestly.

We people have an amazing talent to forget. It might take couple of years but finally we just do. I give him a chance.

My suggestion is give him some space, don't give up just yet let the affair run it's course and be there for him when it fails, you're in love and hopefully he's your best friend, the investment is worth it IMO.

Yes, that is what I try to do. I hope that the affair is short-lived. This, despite some thinking me being very Western person or somehow culturally insensitive, has been some of the most difficult days in my life. I can't sleep, I can't get these thoughts out of my mind and I have a constant headache.

Not much to do, actually, when our loved ones suddenly turn to us and surprise us in this sort of a way. I was no way expecting all this. Maybe I have been too busy and not seen the signs earlier. I still don't see myself as the biggest culprit. It takes two to tango. Culture or not.

Your personal approach (direct, say it like it is) runs cross-grain to the culture. In my workplace, foreign employees don't last long who tend to take this approach to interpersonal communication. I would think it would result in significant wear and tear on an intimate (especially cross-culture) relationship as well.

Hmm...all I can think of is that I am not living with culture. I live with a human being. I really think that if all good behavior and making excuses to lie and cheat are some sort of culture that I should put up with than I say: <deleted> the culture!

This has sometimes been felt by me that I can not give up my beliefs that in a relationship, not some fling, one has to be honest with integrity. There is no such culture in the World that would see lies as a good thing. What does Buddha say about this?

"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."

"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."

So when we talk about Thai beliefs, isn't Buddhism part of it? Part of culture? When someone says to me that Thais lie to soothen things up, I say that is utter BS.

And when we come to this subject, my boyfriend came up with the truth when we had our walk and talk. So, maybe he actually is not besotted by the alleged Thai cultural ways? Maybe he actually gives me credit as much as telling what actually is happening to him/us?

It looks like the Thai partner already realizes that the OP's home is not a prison.

"He has recently opened a new business quite far from our house so he decided to have a room to sleep over near his work. I know him very well after all these years and knew something was wrong. He became evasive..."

Could you clarify what you try to say?

"This sentence sort of irritates me. Why they then choose to have a foreigner in the first place if there is plenty of available Thai guys around? "

Number 1 would be that foreigners have money. You built him and his mother a house and set him up in business, Yet you say it is not about money.

Not many Thais around that can do that, hence a foreigner that can.

To be honest, if I choose to be difficult, most of it is mine. Only the car is in his name. I am not worried about money and have enough even I would walk away taking nothing with me. We have lived as a family and some build houses, some rent. That was our decision to build. I work home so it is convenient to have my office where I stay.

I don't think it's all about money since it's been so long. We live quite frugal lives.

Thais tend to have a more softer ways to communicate and my bf is very sensitive to some sort of flattery. I am very direct speaking person and don't save myself from it either. However, I don't lie in a relationship which I see as a good thing.

The Thai partner got fed up with it, and the grass looked greener on the Thai side of the fence.

Yes, the grass normally looks greener the other side but we people are not perfect and it is part of being mature enough to try to solve problems and feelings together.

There might be some truth in this since I feel that the whole encounter can be somewhat blamed on the everyday living and working becoming a bit of a bore or routine. That also happens. Normal life is not as exciting always as Thai soaps for instance.

We have responsibilities together however what ever way this unfolds.

Yes, Scott. It would be very difficult since we've been together pretty long. I had another talk with him this morning and all he could say that something that was missing from me he found in this new guy. He asked time to resolve his feelings. I said i can wait a month but also urged him to be honest to himself, his new encounter and me. I believe that the guy does not know that I exist.

I think much of this is actually due to the fact that we have both been too close and working hard under stress. He is not good with stressful situations and takes them much harder than me. Maybe we would just need a little holiday from each others? Or together a change of scenery?

I see this as a breaking point. Either we come through this stronger and more mature or it will be the end for something that I still see worthwhile trying to save. Time supposedly will tell. Gay life seems to be in some occasions very promiscuous. I luckily have lost that appetite kicking over the fence. Now been reading some sites for people in similar situation and they all seem to suggest that if we were to continue, he should stop seeing the other guy completely. I tend to agree but am willing to give time to consider. At this point I think pressing him with ultimatum would probably not be beneficial.

I'm not sure if you really want advice, or you just want someone to coddle you in your misconception that you can violate basic cultural mores and expect to get off scot-free with no serious ramifications to your relationships. Romantic relationships are complicated enough even without the added layers of intercultural differences.

So far the only advice has been that just forget everything and walk away. Very simple and I wouldn't know if there was something that could have been saved or not. I said in the beginning that I am not yet sure what level of infatuation or love we are talking about here. Before i jump to the plane, I like to know.

Secondly, having a fight in private does not seem to me being a serious violation of cultural mores (Mores (pronounced more-ays) are a type of norm. They are strict norms that control moral and ethical behavior. Mores are norms based on definitions of right and wrong.) since is it part of Thai culture to lie and have a secret boyfriend somewhere? I consider this worse than exchanging some loud words in our private quarters.

I really would like to hear if there is anyone who has overcome this sort of situation and how did he manage to do so. Leaving is no more easy but before I do, I'd like to know if there is something to save.

A Thai guy can find thousand other Thai men who won't rub them the wrong way for every foreigner who will.

This sentence sort of irritates me. Why they then choose to have a foreigner in the first place if there is plenty of available Thai guys around?

I agree that cultural differences are one factor but also if one is mature and decides to have a relationship, it's not like a dog and master. If people need constant "rubbing in the right way" I feel that they are rather immature.

You said you hope to work things out, and maybe keep the relationship..

Your bf is in love with another man, what is there left to do or say?

Well, there is love, there are encounters, there is infatuation, there are flings, there is momentary insanity. Love is the most overvalued and abused word in many ways. I still love him and won't give up just yet. Seems that there is this view that love only applies to one person at the time with full 100% power. I see the situation a bit differently and try to work through it. Somehow interesting that same people suggesting just walking out the door seem to regard love as something that just is or isn't. Sometimes one has to work and even fight to keep it working. Also there seems to be very little regard for the fact that ending it would effect a lot of other people as well their future. I am not used to just give and and looking for the next guy.

As I said, the situation needs a bit more time to become completely clear. At the moment feelings are very strong but we talk.

Ah! The famous Face.

So you see it that never lose temper and never act angry is the norm in Thailand. And you suggest right away that all is my fault and eight years relationship is just something that has no value to even try to save it?

And who they lose Face if we have had private angry moment? To me?

By all means, if relationships would be that easy that easy that there would never be fights or harshness then we would not be the human beings that I know of. I don't trust people who say they never had a fight or difficult moments in their life. And what comes to thousands of Thai men that would be better option, I say that a gay relationship between two Thais is not any more easy due to the same Face issue you brought up.

We have agreed to try sort this out somehow and we have not been fighting about it. Since you seem to knwo so much about Thais and gay relationships, I'd like to know if you have any personal views about the matter or just throwing in your judgmental views.

As I said, I wish to hear how others survived similar ordeals if they can give me some advice. I am not looking your kind of reply to dump everything and go. We have an adopted daughter of 12 years and also I need to consider his elderly mother that stays with us. It is not so easy as just to leave everything.

I recently discovered that my boyfriend of 8 years is infatuated or really in love with another Thai man. He has recently opened a new business quite far from our house so he decided to have a room to sleep over near his work. I know him very well after all these years and knew something was wrong. He became evasive and had that guilty look on his face.

We had a talk while walking an exercise on his day off and he told me about this other person. He is apparently some sort of plastic surgeon and very well off. He is younger than me, we share an age difference of 7 years. Finally my bf confessed having sex with him and saying that he is very confused about his feelings and asked me to give him time to sort his thoughts.

I was gutted. I had a long walk around a mountain temple and my feelings varied between anger to hate, from hate to feelings of desperation and tears. After thinking about it, I decided that I will let him decide. What will be, will be.

I have helped him for years to finish his education, build his and his mother a house, started the business fro him and so on. I believe that he is not after the money but genuinely is falling in love with this other guy. We talked and he said we can sell the house and I can keep the money. That is not what I am really worried about. I will manage financially whatever comes but I still love him and would not like to see us end something that has been quite a long relationship.

Recently we have had a lot of stress related to different building projects and other related matters and somehow I see this new encounter as some sort of stress relief. I would like to see it end but who knows. I asked what he wants and the answer was something like he wants to finish it in his own way in due time if possible. I have not always been the nicest guy to him. i have bit of a temper but I get over it very quickly and forget, He still remembers and says that I am fighting with him too much: our "fights" are normally my way to try to explain how to avoid problems and trying to ease up things talking beforehand about possible mismanagement in business. I am just not very patient guy so it may coem out too harshly.

I am a bit lost at the moment and would prefer some friendly advice if anyone has experienced something similar in his past and especially if he came over the ordeal with some happy ending. I do not wish to get replies that suggest he is ripping me off or that he acts like some prostitute. That is not what is going on.

...

My life slid down hill from there and relationships as well. The only choice I felt I had left was death by firearm or drugs. Fortunately, I had a spiritual event that lead me to reach out for help which saved my life. It is though AA that I have found a new life, full of abundance and happiness. I found other people that shared my experiences, some less and some more. I found acceptance, support and understanding that only someone in the program can understand.

...

One Day at A Time.

I am happy for you. Now been few weeks sober and it really helps me think more positive and have more energy to deal with my work and duties.

I find your honesty extremely refreshing. My aunt was an alcoholic and unfortunately the closest person to me in my family. I saw her prolonged alcohol induced demise very close. I probably would have needed some sort of consulting by a shrink the moment she was buried. The problem with alcohol induced suicide is that it takes so long. Suicide? I hear you ask. Yes, in my opinion some alcoholics know what's coming and at the same time they make their family members and closest ones suffer greatly.

She was also the greatest person to invent excuses for her lifestyle and dealings. She was not poor. I say this because if she would've been not much would have separated her from the gutter - literally.

Somehow I feel that alcoholism runs in our family. That is one of the reasons that I want to put a stop to my own drinking. I don't want my life to turn into a shrinking spiral around the bottle. Many alcoholics have very pathetic lives. Their life circulates around their own navel. And drink, of course. Other people, especially those trying to separate them from the beloved bottle, are not important. They may need a lot of affection but it normally is very one way road. They really don't care about other people. If they would, they would give up their love to drink.

I have seen what drink does and still been too weak-minded to give it up totally myself. I hope that time comes. I am happy that people get rid of drinking - by any means. I myself am not sure if AA would suit me since it involves religious elements and that is another matter that I suffered in my youth but not into talking about it now.

As you say...One Day at A Time.

I have seen people ignore their bodies too many times. When one gets sick and loses his health it is not something that can be purchased from a store. "Could I have a new body, please!"

Diabetes puts a big strain on body and internal organs. Your comment of your dads legs could suggest he is already on his way to neuropathy. That means the blood circulation in his legs is limited and he might not feel pain below knees. Also, when drinking extended periods of time one might cause severe nerve damage. I don't want to scare you but I have seen this too close to not warn about it.

I have been sober now for quite many weeks and hope to continue that way. When you mentioned that New Year and dad are sort of forcing you to have fun, I might ask is there no alternative? It might be hard to go round with him not drinkin but at the same time you might see what's it like to be with him while sober. I have done that and found out that bars are not anymore for me. Same old drunks and same old happenings. Even the go-go bars aren't interesting when you observe the goings without the numbing influence of drink.

Anyway, I truly hope the best for you. It is YOUR LIFE and you should have the best possible.

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/neuropathies/

Alcoholics, from my experience, are neither weak minded, victims, or lacking in self discipline any more or less than someone suffering from intolerance or bigotry.

I sort of agree. Many alcoholics can pretend to be normal quite a long time and be in positions of good jobs etc. Actually, more higher we go in hierarchy, it seems that quite many are tolerated without much talk.

I think it is irresponsible to say to someone: "Drink! You are still young." Especially so if one asks opinion to be more sober. I have personally witnessed a young guy lose his job, relationship and house along with his future in two years. Donno why I survived a decade of heavy boozing but that doesn't make me proud of it. I lost a lot what could've been a very succesfull career. I managed alright but somehow still feel that it could've been much much more without the tainting influence of drink.

I am weak. I am weak when it comes to drink. I can't have just one or two or three...it goes on until I am totally drunk, can't remember how I came home or with what. Don't remember how I got hurt on the way felling down on my knee. Can't remember what I said to my partner of 8 years when landing on the bed.

There are so many things that I regret. None were really necessary to go through. Now I am sober most of the year. If I go on the drink I don't show my face at home. That has been agreed. My family doesn't drink at all and they simply don't understand why someone does. I don't like to promise that I will never drink but I have cut down from being 200 days a year drunk to maybe 20 times a year and trying to finish completely. '

I find a big double standard being one of the things that becomes apparent when one admits that he is having problems with drink. Society and social circles quite often provide drink and it is considered the norm. You are a great guy, you can take a lot of booze. But when things go pear shaped you are the loser. Sometimes I think that is a sign of fear from those who know fully well that they could be that loser one day.

I continue trying to quit completely but at the moment still just trying. I truly hope that the OP doesn't have to go through all that what I have been through. It just isn't worth it just for the drink.

I would say 1500 Baht a meter with proper footing. That is with iron not stainless.

The gate is about 5000 Baht a meter from iron, easily 10K a meter from stainless.

Remember to look fro a crew that can do the footings properly since otherwise after few rainy seasons it could fall down. Depending the soil of course.

Well, I bet this thread will attract those who are jumping all hula hoops and feel superior standing in the pinnacle of righteousness.

I feel that Thailand deserves to see that tourists and others may have other choices...I've been here 12 years with various visas (probably tried every and each one besides the religious one) and now tired of all the bullshit that one has to take every day, from month to month, from year to year. Living among corruption, inadequacy and questionable practices has finally caught up with me. I don't want loose my integrity and moral values being part of disgrace what goes for public service in Thailand.

So, after all I have been through, I am selling everything and relocating to good old Europe. You standing on the pinnacle can keep all this to yourselves. Hope you will feel happy in the lovely polluted winds up there.

Oh, these loving caring and wonderful Buddhist people. Always smiling and taking care of every whim and fancy of yours. They are so wonderful, warm and skillful, so professional in their conduct.

How can this happen? It must be a disgusting degenerate Farang who deserves to be beaten to death since he refused to hand over his assets to these second-to-none people. I must say, throw this kind of honeymoon travelers to jail and let them rot there.

BTW, I have not taken a taxi or tuk-tuk in about 8 years now. Have my own car and motorbike. Saved a lot of money and hassle doing it myself. Can recommend. If drinking, I simply ask some of my relatives to give me a lift. They do it without asking me any donations or beating me up on my rude behavior.

God (or Buddha?) bless them!

I only know about construction workers since used the a lot last 4-5 years.

It is true one can occasionally find people working 180 Baht a day but they normally ain't worth even that. The motivation is so low that I like to pay good workers a bit more.

How much is a bit more? Hmm...starting from 400 a day and 550 being the top for someone who actually is good at his job. Ladies and unskilled labor get 300 or 350.

Those days when you got someone very cheap are gone. I rather have qualified guys laying my floors and ceilings than some plonker. Jobs that can be priced per square meter are better done that way.

Ceilings here in Khon Kaen start from 170 Baht a square meter, plain ceiling that is. More forms, edges etc. up to 300/sq.m

Installing smart boards 100 per sq.m. Talking here stuff starting from 6 mm thickness up to 10 mm, real heavy to handle.

I have found out that a priced job is quicker than some people plodding along for weeks. But each to their own.