drtreelove

2 hours ago, bannork said:

The last few days my young namwa banana trees have been attacked by  caterpillars, hatched from eggs left by butterflies in the yet to unfurl banana leaf, known as bai muan in Thai.

I know there are chemicals I can use but I'd rather use something organic. 

I've taken to inspecting the trees (250) twice a day and have been eliminating caterpillars found, but I fear the butterflies will return again and again.

Any helpful suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

Insecticidal soap is good as a contact spray, but is not systemic and cannot get inside the curled leaves and it does not have long term residual effectiveness for repelling the adult moths or butterflies from laying eggs.  Neem seed extract (Azadirachtin concentrate) is better as a repellant and reproductive disruptor. but any organic insecticide needs frequent repeated applications. And as your banana plants grow this makes application more challenging and expensive. 

But lets get to the heart of the problem.  In my opinion your plants are not being managed properly so they are susceptible to pest and disease and water deficit issues.

From the photos they appear stunted and pale, indicating extreme nutrient deficiencies. Nutrition matters for pest management.

They are wilty, indicating water deficit. There is no mulch except a few strands of straw, and that is not mulch. 

I have grown namwa bananas in two locaions in Chiang Mai and also in Samut Prakan and never had pest or disease problems. But I  improve the soil with mineral and biological amendments and fertilize with manure. I mulch the soil surface and water regularly. 

BTW, that's a lot of damage; you may have snails or slugs feeding at night too. 

On 6/24/2020 at 12:38 AM, baansgr said:

If you talked to your plants as plant lovers do, they will tell you.

Until this intuitive capacity is developed, there can be a language barrier.

Best to use multiple senses, or take the guess work out and use a soil moisture meter:

touch: finger probe, handful of soil compressed to assess if its muddy wet or dry or in between.  

sight: soil surface drying and cracking, leaves wilting and turning light green, greyish or bluish

smell: sweet healthy soil smell, or sour smell from overwatering and decay

With a saucer under the pot, as in the plant on the right in the photo, you can watch the water level in the saucer and not water until the saucer dries. With an outer pot, as with the fern on the left, it is more difficult to see this and more dangerous for letting it set in a bowl of water. 

Not all soil is created equal, most pots and potting substrate don't have real clayey mineral soil,  but a sandy or organic or inert porous medium that water runs right through without being retained much at all. So there is no universal recommendation of how much to water. Not letting it dry out is not perfect advise in my opinion, but using the soil moisture meter standard, I recommend watering thoroughly and then letting it dry out to where the meter goes into the lower moist range, not completely into the dry range. Then water until it shows wet, then let it partially dry again. Keeping the soil muddy wet can cause hypoxia and extremes leading to root rot. Letting it dry completely can cause wilting, stress, die-back and mortality.

Watering too frequently causes leaching of nutrients and need for excessive fertilization. 

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/testing-moisture-in-plants.htm

https://www.domyown.com/luster-leaf-rapitest-mini-moisture-tester-1810-p-7732.html

11 hours ago, cooked said:

I'm pretty sure it's a fungus.

Not.  Appears to be edema.

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/plant-problems/environmental/treating-edema-in-plants.htm

Here are some examples from American sources, I haven't sourced these materials in Thailand. 

Flea and tick control

https://www.domyown.com/outdoor-flea-and-tick-kit-p-14128.html

https://www.planetnatural.com/pest-problem-solver/lawn-pests/tick-control/

http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7419.html

Scroll down in the linked articles and note the comprehensive nature of the IPM approach. Think "program", not only "products".  

You need to differentiate where you want to apply the tick control. Not on the dogs bodies I assume. There are good medications available for that. Search multiple previous discussions on this forum.

Insecticides for the dog environment can be considered, but permethrin and fipronil are not what you could consider natural, or organic program compatible.

To address your specific question:

Pyrethrins aka pyrethrum is a natural botanical substance, but short lived effectiveness. It biodegrades in 12 to 24 hours. I use it for a contact spray, for knock down of a chewing or sucking plant pest in an organic program, but it's not going to have the residual effectiveness needed for tick control.

Permethrin is a pyrethroid, the synthetic chemical derivative of the botanical pyrethrum. Not natural, but low toxicity for people and pets, and has residual effectiveness. It is used for tick collars and mosquito nets, and plant pest control. For spraying the bedding and dog run areas, do more research on appropriate use, Integrated Pest Management, combinations of insecticides and sanitation measures.

Fipronil is yet another class of chemical insecticide. It's not natural or organic program compatible. This is used in closed system termite control, but should not be sprayed into the open environment, lawn, trees, shrubs. It can be picked up by foraging pollinators and transported back to the hives where it could kill an entire honey bee colony. 

Do some more homework on DE, I haven't used it.  Search IPM for ticks. There are YouTube videos and articles from many sources available. 

On 5/14/2020 at 8:03 PM, riclag said:

Why don't you go on youtube and do a search

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkX5t5ZJLEk

New podcast from Graeme Sait, Nutrition Farming.

https://anchor.fm/nutrition-farming/episodes/Harnessing-Humus-edpkuo/a-a24v891

11 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

 Mandailing Estate Coffee from Sumatra

Available at the Lotus/Tesco where we shop in Samut Prakan. 

On 4/19/2020 at 3:10 AM, mistral53 said:

Be happy you live in Thailand - in the US the cops stop you on the HWY and ask how much money you carry, if it is a tempting amount, they will take it from you and call it civil asset forfeiture. You then have to fight to get it back, which probably will cost more then the amount confiscated, so most people just hang their heads and be happy they live in the land of the free. It's a multi-billion dollar business for the cops.........

 

Thailand........mehh

Nonsense. What's the rest of the story? Maybe after they found your meth pipe and a fat baggie. 

This is the old guys down on TicTok thread, but I'm an old guy too and I've gotten hooked on some of the TicTok video compilations on YouTube, as well as others that are not TicTok videos, but similar short takes that people put together as average 10 minute compilations for their YouTube channel. 

There is a lot of stupid and boring takes, and then some of the funniest stunts and antics I've ever seen, as well as high level skills in gymnastics-acrobatics, soccer and basketball handling and shots, martial arts, parkour free running stunts, driving skills and foolishness, artistic expressions, amazing food related prep and pranks, it goes on and on. And then there is the eye-candy in the various TicTok Girls compilations.

Check out some of the YouTube channels like Xemvn-Khoah Khan Ky Thu. He puts up a new TicTok compilation every day. The previous series "Things you may have seen only once in your life" was better than the current "Embarrasing moments...". 

Not necessarily all Tic Tok videos, but I like amazing skills-oriented Goblin -Like a Boss compilations. 

Also entertaining on YouTube, Bao Yang, Liziqi. Check it out.

Mindless, fascinating, addictive entertainment for quarantine time. 

I don't know enough to recognize your hive, but there are honey bees and then there are wasps/hornets. 

Tiger wasps are extremely dangerous if the hive or the supporting tree is disturbed. You should have someone identify the actual insect and determine risk. 

This guy maybe has the right idea, send the gutsy wife out there to deal with it while you film it for us. 

On 4/13/2020 at 6:28 PM, Grafting Ken said:

Hi Drtreelove.

for pests I spray every 2 week with a molasses based mix of Em, neem oil, seaweed extract and soap it keeps most pests in check. I had a problem with what I found to be a matalic borer a year or so ago constant spraying has sorted it, I believe the em kills the larvae. I just had a big outbreak of thrifts and had to go a little stronger to kill it off so used ambectin once then back to the neem and that’s sorted it.

leaf miner is not so bad on the finger lime and I’ve found they love nice young pomelo leaves over other citrus so keep some young pomelo around.

Only canker I’ve had is from trees I’ve had has been on young trees or rootstock I’ve had sent in.... I remove and burn them.

soil mix in the baskets I use my soil, sand, rice husk, burned rice husk, coco cior, coco husk... ad manure for orange lemon lime and pomelo but not for finger lime... no manure for finger lime.

keeping up with the spray is important and Spray everywhere trunk and all dripping wet.

ive found it much better to grow all citrus on for a year or so in the baskets then plant out start of rainy season when the tree is a nice size and much stronger.

That's an intelligent program.  

For the benefit of others who may be interested, I would like to ad my two satang comments.  

The two week intervals are necessary for organic program pro-active maintenance. One week schedule may be required for any active infestation. Chemical pesticides may have longer residual effectiveness, but if we want an organic program, we have to face the reality of limited period of residual repellent activity for biological, botanical products.

The bio-pesticide mix is probably over-kill, but better safe than sorry.  Insecticidal soap at the two week interval would probably do it, including for control of the metallic beetle larvae, and especially with a neem seed extract product as a repellent and reproductive disruptor. Along with good water management (drought stressed trees are more susceptible to beetle borers.) Maybe, but I doubt it was the EM that killed larvae. It was more likely the soap and neem that repelled adult beetles from laying eggs that become larval flathead borers.  Ken is smart to recommend spraying the woody branches and tree trunk as well as the foliage. 

Molasses is a sugary medium for any biological fungicide product to thrive and "colonize" (grow on the leaf or root surface to serve as a beneficial biological deterrent to pathogenic (disease causing) organisims. In this case EM (effective micro-organisms). The seaweed concentrate helps, and depending on formulation and absorption through leaf surface and stomata will aid in trace mineral nutrition.  Compost tea or a commercial biological fungicide is an alternative to the EM. 

"I just had a big outbreak of thrifts"  Typo, should be "thrips", in case anyone wants to search for info on these hard to control insect pests. They are a tiny, elongated, usually black colored insect that inhabits and feeds, usually on the underside of the leaf surface. They have rasping and sucking mouth parts that expose the leaf sap. Damage becomes visible as "stipling" discoloration of the leaf surface, leaf curling and branch dieback if advanced . The abemectin would have been effective because it is a "translaminate" insecticide that penetrates the entire leaf and poisons the food source for the thrips. Insecticidal soap and neem are contact and repellent products and may not have been as effective for control of an advanced infestation, but should be good for preventive maintenace if used regularly, especially of the lower leaf surfaces are covered with the botanical spray. Ken is wise to use abemectin only once or twice for an urgent control situation. He obviously knows that ongoing use of any systemic can build up in residual concentration in the plant tissues and is not appropriate for a food product in an organic program.  

Adding a complete nutrition formula to the planting soil will do a lot for pest and disease management.  Zinc is being touted for corona virus prevention in humans. Zinc, Copper and other micronutrients and balanced macronutrients are just as important for plant health and resistance to pests and disease. 

On 4/12/2020 at 4:40 PM, lemonjelly said:

Currently looking into using Passion Flower vines. They’ll be potted and trained on trellis as they don’t attach directly to the wall. Vermin in ceiling space would be a worry though on a couple of the walls, roof is quite high though so I’ll just make sure that the trellis is well below roof level 

This is a good idea, to use a trellis.  If you hinge it at the bottom, with release latches at the top, and don't permanently attach the trellis to the wall, you can get access to the wall for maintenance, depending on the flexibility of the stems or ability to tip the pots. Keep in mind, direct afternoon sun on a south or west facing wall will be very challenging even for plants that can normally take full sun. Pots dry out faster than in the ground plantings, so attend to your watering and mulch the soil surface. Frequent watering of pots depletes nutrients, so attend to fertilization.

Regarding pest control, rats, etc. You should always use "exclusion" method to block access into your house, screens or solid stop-gap methods, vine or no vine. 

Rangoon Creeper is a favorite of mine. Profuse fragrant flowers. We have it growing on a perimeter wall, with base on the shady side of the wall, not on the house, so I'm not sure how it will hold up with full sun on a wall exposure. 

https://www.thaigardendesign.com/quisqualis-indica-rangoon-creeper/

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/vines/rangoon-creeper/rangoon-creeper-vine.htm

Nice! 

I'm curious, what pest and disease issues to you encounter in your nursery and how to you manage these? Psyllid/HLB, leaf miner, mealybug, canker, crown rot, etc. 

Are you willing to share info on your container soil medium, fertilization, pest and disease prevention program? 

You may find that it is difficult to influence customary local practices, and that your wife will get her information from family and other local growers.

I've never been involved in growing oil palms, but one of our daughters lives with her partner's family who are oil palm farmers in Chumphon, and I've visited. Everyone in the family is involved in the industry, growing, harvesting or working at the local mill. 

The fertilization program is focused on Nitrogen for vegetative growth and Potassium (potash) for fruit production. They are heavy on the use of Potassium chloride 0-0-60.  

I've tried to influence them to consider a more thorough and balanced soil building, with zero acceptance. They do what their neighbors do just to get the maximum yield with minimal cost. Which is extremely short sighted in my opinion, and may lead to the decline of the the health of their palms, susceptibility to devastating pest or disease issues, and reduced production in the long term. Palms usually have a high Potassium and Magnesium requirements, but other vital nutrients should not be neglected. 

Here is a primer for you: 

http://www.fao.org/3/t0309e/T0309E01.htm

This publication has a better fertilization program in my opinion:

https://www.agrifarming.in/oil-palm-cultivation

Not powdery mildew, mealy bugs maybe, but looks more like a wooly aphid to me.  strong water spray will dislodge mealy bugs and greatly reduce numbers, but wooly aphids may need additional mechanical removal, like by hand (with cotton glove or rag) .  For one or small number of reachable plants, this type of mechanical removal is the most practical. For a larger planting or larger plants, then you may need to go to chemical methods. Systemic insecticide is effective, but not appropriate for food producing plants. 

Neem oil or petroleum based horticultural oil or other contact insecticide is most effective on the crawler stage of scale insect pests and not on adults or wooly aphids, which are protected from contact spray materials by the waxy coatings. Neem oil every two weeks would be needed, but I haven't found a 70% neem oil product in Thailand, only Azadirachtin concentrates. These are much more expensive, and don't have some of the properties that oil does.

Consider your soil fertility management and fertilization. High Nitrogen chemical fertilizers are a pest magnet. Slow release complete organic fertilizers are more plant friendly. 

Wojciech is right, soil testing and prescription amendments is the best, but sometimes not affordable for a small planting.  Are you Wojciech the author of "Fertilizer For Free" ?  If so, in your profile please post the website for members to access this excellent book on green manure. 

Xen, welcome back. 

There are two current discussions on this forum regarding plants that could be considered "invasive".  There are many trees, shrubs, vines and ground covers that have attractive or useful qualities, and are chosen based on limited information. This is just a heads-up, do a little searching for information on growth habits and mature sizes of plants before you make a decision on selecting them for your garden.  If you don't, you may regret it and invite an impossible management headache, or have to mutilate or kill a plant because you didn't look far enough ahead to plan for long term growth. 

My father was the landscape architect in the family, I became a tree care and landscape maintenance specialist. For over 50 years now I have been called on constantly to solve the problems of overgrowth for the site, or hard to control invasiveness of certain plants.  Take it from the voice of experience, - know what you are getting into. And be responsible for the sake of neighbors and community and the environment. Don't import a nightmare. On the other-hand, there are plants listed as invasive that are not that bad in the right situation. 

If you are a landscape designer, it is your responsibility to look beyond the design and aesthetic properties. Know the plants you are recommending and their mature size and requirements. Use compatible plantings for growing conditions and water use.

When in doubt, its so easy to search, or ask. 

6 hours ago, malcolminthemiddle said:

Thanks Dr Treelove,

 

I was quoted 150 baht/m2 by tee2green excl delivery and laying.

 

Having difficulty justifying this very high price.

I don't know them or their operation, I just had the website link in my resources file. 

I'm sure its a "supply and demand" thing. Where else are you going to get it? It's not a common landscape grass in Thailand. 

I assume you want this invasive "knot-weed" because of seaside saline and maybe wet growing conditions where other grasses will not grow. Talk with Ben at ThaiGardenDesign dot com. They may have other resources or alternatives. 

13 hours ago, tonray said:

Yeah...my property is pretty much all heavy clay...need to improve any area before planting with sand, peat, and topsoil before any success. The clay is actually so thick as this MooBaan was a reclaimed lotus farm...when you bring these chunks to the surface and they dry in the sun...they turn into bricks. 

You are not alone. Rice farms and lotus ponds are din niew, heavy clay sticky soil that doesn't drain. Many moobaans have imported clayey subsoil fill to raise the grade. To improve this type of clay soil can be a major project with expensive imported amendments or hard-to-find quality topsoil. Figuring out how to go about it economically is the challenge.  When we lived and farmed in Chiang Mai we scavenged composting materials, organic matter and manures wherever we could find it. Rice hulls and straw, ground coco husks, donkey and horse manure from the Army pack squadron, race horse manure from the race track stables, etc. We also grew green manure crops with free bean seeds from the Land Development Dept. 

Soil testing and prescription amendments is best, but some people's budget won't permit.

 
Gypsum isn't the answer for all situations, nor is it a total fix, but it can be an important and economical soil amendment, and is an excellent component for improving clayey soils.

"Gypsum Improves Soil Structure. Gypsum provides calcium which is needed to flocculate clays in soil. It is the process in which many individual small clay particles are bound together to give much fewer but larger particles. Such flocculation is needed to give favorable soil structure for root growth and air and water movement. (1)"

https://www.usagypsum.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/AMI-tech-general.pdf

(Finding good quality gypsum can be a challenge. I bought some from LDK in CM that was brown and full of hard lumps that had to be broken and screened.)

I don't have any financial interest in the sale of products from bonemeal.net, but they are an up and coming valuable resource for farmers, especially for bulk materials and soil test based amendment recommendations. I have used their products and I trust the quality and business practices. Their soil test based amendment recommendations are now being done by Michael Astera, author of "The Ideal Soil, A Handbook for the New Agriculture" www.soilminerals.com

http://www.tee2greenthailand.com/turf-product/

Be aware, this is an invasive species, a weed in rice crops and mangroves.

https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/110291

Summary of Invasivenes

Paspalum vaginatum, commonly known as seashore paspalum and by many other names, is a species of perennial grass which can be found in wet, saline habitats. Reported to have originated from the Americas, it can be a serious weed of rice in West Africa. In coastal habitats, it can spread at 1-2 m per year and become dominant over native vegetation. In New Zealand, it is of concern having invaded the nesting areas of the endangered New Zealand fairy tern (Sterna nereis), threatening a range of uncommon or endangered plant species, and possibly affecting fish breeding. PIER (2016) assesses it as a 'High Risk' species (score 7) for the Pacific islands and confirms it as invasive in Hawaii (on golf courses) and the Marshall Islands, also on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. In Spain it is classed as a species with ‘clear invasive behaviour; dangerous (causing ecological damage or alteration) for natural ecosystems’ (Dana et al., 2007). Similarly it is regarded as a threat to native vegetation in California, USA (Riefner and Columbus, 2008).

Here is an example of the trichoderma biofungicide that  IssanAussie suggested.  This one I found in an ag shop across from MaeJo U near Chiang Mai.