spidermike007

So many "holier-than-thou" responses from guys who are actually saying "There but for the grace of God, go I." This guy was being a bad boy for sure, but no way is it clear that he intentionally picked up a junior. His greatest crime was not getting the ID checked by hotel, police - even a taxi-driver would have put him right.... Who approached who or who spoke first is immaterial - the girl went willingly for a price - he didn't have to strong-arm her or knock her over the head and bundle her into a taxi.

Anyone who has first hand experience of Beach Road will know that you will be approached at all times of day and night in the most casual manner by all styles, ages and sexes - - mostly indeterminable. The wise thing to do is enjoy some banter and move on. This guy was just tempted beyond his limit and didn't take the basic precautions. If he goes to court (he might as well now since his cover is well-blown anyway) the judge just might take the view that it was entrapment of one kind or another and not hit him too hard - at least that way the rednecks in USA will not get their hands on him.

You, like so many others have little understanding of how this works, for an American. The American govt. absolutely has a bug up its butt, when it comes to sex, and especially underage sex. They get full cooperation from the Thai police, and the Thai govt. I said FULL! So, unless you can buy your way out on this end, you ARE FINISHED. Your life is over. The Thai cops get credit for turning someone over to the Americans. One call to the embassy is all it takes! After a 10 year federal prison term, where do you go from there? I am told it takes at least 1,000,000 baht, to buy your way out, on this end, when she is 16 or under. Closer to one million US on the other end, in attorneys fees if you want to have a fighting chance. So, unless you are very rich, very dumb, or just do not care, as a US citizen you had better be super, super careful in these matters.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

After the parents charged officially Mr. Rosenthal, the police report will mention the amount of their "moral" claim for the scandal...

If he pays - due to the media, a huge sum - the charges in Thailand will be dropped.

Idem dito for the US. He will still remain suspect...in the US.

By the way, he's from Chicago...

She accepted money = prostitution (no rape)

Now, if you want to send the guy 10 years in jail in the US, what is your defenition of "obscenity for personal gratification" during the 20 minutes in the hotel ?

You are absolutely incorrect. The US government could not give a rats ass what the Thai government. Read your law. He is subject to US law, and they will pursue him. The only way he can get away with this, is if the Thai authorities do not alert the American authorities. That is very unlikely. In the case of a 16, or 17 year old maybe, but a 13 year old will be an absolute conviction, and he will serve at least 10 years. Case closed. No evidence required, other than the fact that he was caught red handed.

So would he be handed over to the American authorities in Thailand, or will it only happen if he travels back to the US?

Presumably if the Thai authorities drop the charges (as may well happen if enough money exchanges hands) there will be nothing the US authorities can do?

The US will be only too happy to fly an assistant federal prosecutor over here to pick him up. They love doing this kind off thing.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This is all about cash, and nothing more. The record company officials appear to be upset that he was not in the mood to promote his latest album. Considering the number of real crimes being committed in Pattaya, it is a shame the toy police decided to enforce this commercial hooliganism. The record company officials are made to look like tiny minded cowards, which they most certainly are. The police could not have a worse image.

Huh? Exactly why do I need leave TH?

Pease provide us with a list of your top five spots you are suggesting. Please bear in mind:

1. How delightful are the local people?

2. How reasonable is the place to live?

3. How food is the local cuisine?

4. What about the local women? Are they attractive? Open to relationships with foreigners?

It is fine to say you want to leave, but where to?

"As for your last reason (women). All than well if you are a sex tourist or prefer the seedier side of Thailand but any decent Thai women wouldn't want want a bar of a farang guy."

"That is such an insulting statement that i am thoroughly surprised that any mod would allow it to be posted. It is really inflammatory especially to many TV members here who are happily married to Thai ladies. My own lady has two uni degrees,has her own business, comes from a respectable middle class family in the south and they treat me with respect. Not all thai wives have had this privilege in their lives, but there many of them who are good hard working loving family wives. You really need to apoligise to these ladies. I am frankly 'pissed off' with your ignorant statement, and am sure that there will be many others in TV who would feel the same as i do."

The allegedly insulting stuff is not even applicable to you and your situation so why get so bent out of shape over it? The fact is a high % of expats do indeed participate in the seedy stuff and so what if they are involved with women of the sex industry? They worked hard all their lives and choose to enjoy whatever. It is not exactly abnormal when a male with pulse, blood pressure and testosterone finds solace at girly venues.

Point in fact; the owner of a famous upscale rachada road massage/happy ending establishment first letter begins with "P" was that of a hi so well educated family that had a high level government position.

The poster in no way targeted you or your wife/family.

IMO what I'd say is more damaging is how Thai's equate skin color so highly with social class and assume if a westerner is with a non light skin girl she is a sex worker, or if with a white skin girl, assume the westerner must be paying a lot for her.

Water off a ducks back. It is pretty obvious that this poster has an IQ approximating that of the temperature in Fahrenheit of a country home in France in the wintertime. We must ignore such nonsense, as if it never appeared. H is betraying his lack of knowledge and experience on the subject.

If you work in Thailand, you can't take a Thai's job and you need a work permit. That rule should be enforced. All the rest of this bitter talk is irrelevant.

Let's see the work permits. No work permit, goodbye.

I agree. The same rules apply in our own countries. Would be great if the crack down was applied as effectively to the jet ski operators, tuk tuk drivers, time share scams etc.

The problem is, in this case, the Thai's simply can't do the job. They do not speak, read or write Russian.

Thailand wants thousands of Russian tourist, spending millions and millions of baht, but they do not want to allow a few of them a job as a tour guide or interpreter, based solely on their skills to speak this very difficult language.

Thailand needs to make a few concessions in this regard, or lose the Russian market.

A Russian interpreter is not taking a job off a Thai because a Thai could not do that job in the first place. It's an extra position to cater for the Russian tourist.

Now, thanks to the tuk-tuk drivers closing down this business, they have actually put more Thai's out of work than Russians.

Great point. It does not take a scientist to figure out these facts. Unfortunately, there are a tremendous number of people in this land who lack the intellectual resources to figure out this kind of stuff. I is pretty basic. But, the tendency toward knee jerk nationalism really keeps the Thais from progressing, and evolving. Time will reveal this crisis more and more.

Attention to all interested in options and specifically to; spidermike007 & BTM & Skorz re their queries raised as copied below.

Time for us "Falangs" so say goodbye to Thailand and head for greener pastures.

and that is where?

Good luck with finding another country where you can get a decent ride, fresh curry and a beer for under 20 quid.

Please provide us with a list of your top five spots you are suggesting. Please bear in mind:

1. How delightful are the local people?

2. How reasonable is the place to live?

3. How food is the local cuisine?

4. What about the local women? Are they attractive? Open to relationships with foreigners?

It is fine to say you want to leave, but where to?

As I said earlier, Good luck with finding another country where you can get a decent ride, fresh curry and a beer for under 20 quid.

I have left Thailand after years there, so tired of the constant sticky little fingers in your pocket, and the list of wrongs perpetrated daily against Falangs is never ending, the lost deposits on rental properties & hire cars, bikes etc.

Let alone the violence, the pain re Visa`s and reporting, the need to have any property in a locals name by 51% to facilitate easy transfer of assets etc etc. The issues with banks and credit cards, the list is endless.

So in response to your request to identify a better location; I have relocated to Cambodia for 6 months now, some insights as to why I prefer it here;

No Visa issues, pay for a 6 or 12 month Visa endlessly extendible at any travel agent or hotel or rental condo.

You can be in business legally, you can buy property - with caveats, but easily do-able, the people in large are more friendly than in the major hubs of corrupt sleaze as Phuket & Pattaya, and now that disease has taken hold in the tourist areas of Chiang Mai also strongly.

It seems many Farang are able to convince them selves all is well in Thailand, as long as it is not them personally involved in a newsworthy spot of trouble, how short sighted, I decided not to stay & continue to give money to those who make no attempt to even appear as if they like or respect you for any reason other than your money - get some self respect and look elsewhere, or when your time comes to be in the cross hairs - dont complain.

Do not mistake this as all is bad in Thailand, I did have very warm contact with Thai people in a more local environment, it is the so called Hi So and tourism operators who soon see the advantage to be had by blatantly robbing tourists & falang residents there is no stopping them, and we have no rights unless you either can afford to or wish to be the highest bidder on the outcome of your life`s issue at stake to the BIB.

The sale of rose coloured glasses has been very successful in Thailand, why do so many like to live as an Ostrich, very sandy down there !

So apart from here in Cambodia, which is also rated as the 11 th fastest growing economy, or thereabouts - creating many opportunities then there is also parts of the Philippines, Laos and Vietnam as mentioned in another post.

The Farang food is way better here if you like that, see here - http://www.khmer440.com/k/2013/01/le-bistrot-a-rough-diamond-hidden-among-lady-bars/ - so in relation to the 20 quid query, a first class Tournedos with wine x 2 at $1 per glass, albeit small, transport to & from all for about $12.00 & real American BBQ places, NZ Venison, the best Sous Vide cooked burgers at $5 etc etc

You can get real French style Baguettes - not sugar bread, a small thing - but a very pleasant change, the Tuk Tuks are Farang sized & cost way less than in Thailand, they have Casinos if interested etc etc

The chance of me going back to live in Thailand is about the same as fair trade to take wings in Phuket !

Fascinating thread. Thanks for that. Yes, Thailand requires a lot of stamina and patience. Most thai people really do not have a clue. I have been to Cambodia, and liked it. I despise the government, and Hun Sen is one of the worlds greatest pigs, but the people are nice. Did not like the local food nearly as much, but it is quite easy to beat the thai baked goods. Why can't the thai people figure out how to bake? One of my conclusions is that it is an enormous handicap for a country in asia to not have been occupied. Perhaps one of the greatest problems with Thailand is that they we never occupied by a Western country?

Time for us "Farlangs" so say goodbye to Thailand and head for greener pastures.

Huh? Exactly why do I need leave TH?

Pease provide us with a list of your top five spots you are suggesting. Please bear in mind:

1. How delightful are the local people?

2. How reasonable is the place to live?

3. How food is the local cuisine?

4. What about the local women? Are they attractive? Open to relationships with foreigners?

It is fine to say you want to leave, but where to?

Ok, for over a week we have read various reports from the Nation and elsewhere concerning graft, corruption and illegal movements of money.

Ok, all well and good.

And now all that's needed is for the Thai authorities to start the appropriate legal and criminal law processes to finally rid Thailand of this cancer and imprison those responsible.

By the way, at lunchtime yesterday, I saw three policeman - in open view - receive a pay off from a vendor who sells copied dvds on the street and help themselves to a selection of their choice.

Work it out.

Thailand is one of the few nations in the world that does not imprison people for corruption. At least Malaysia, the Philippines, China, India, Indonesia, and even to a minor extent Laos, is putting up a fight. Only Thailand, Cambodia, and Burma are not doing anything about this plague, and that does not look like it will change anytime soon. It is possible the Thais simply lack the courage for waging this battle? While Malaysia is locking people up, who are in important positions, on a weekly basis, and China is executing people for corruption, how many years have gone by since an important figure has been locked up here?

After the parents charged officially Mr. Rosenthal, the police report will mention the amount of their "moral" claim for the scandal...

If he pays - due to the media, a huge sum - the charges in Thailand will be dropped.

Idem dito for the US. He will still remain suspect...in the US.

By the way, he's from Chicago...

She accepted money = prostitution (no rape)

Now, if you want to send the guy 10 years in jail in the US, what is your defenition of "obscenity for personal gratification" during the 20 minutes in the hotel ?

You are absolutely incorrect. The US government could not give a rats ass what the Thai government. Read your law. He is subject to US law, and they will pursue him. The only way he can get away with this, is if the Thai authorities do not alert the American authorities. That is very unlikely. In the case of a 16, or 17 year old maybe, but a 13 year old will be an absolute conviction, and he will serve at least 10 years. Case closed. No evidence required, other than the fact that he was caught red handed.

For starters in America police will not allow a 13 year old wonder the streets in prostitute zones.

They will also not allow a 13 year old to go into the room with a paying customer, nor will they monitor a 13 year old.

So lets stop with this nonsense what would happened in other country.

Again he did not go looking for underage girl outside the school or playground, or candy shop or games arcade or movies.

He was in a well known zone for prostitutes at 4 am, 4 am is not the time for underage girls to be anywhere in public without parents.

IF this happened in US, Police officers involved would be the first ones loosing their jobs for allowing this to happen

My point was simply that as an American, he is subject to American law, for an act committed here in Thailand. That is the bottom line. And statutory rape does not mean rape. It means sex with a minor.

I think you got that wrong. All the money generated through these 'cartels" goes all the way up the line. The actual drivers are mere pawns in the bigger picture such as the average red shirt was a couple of years back or any other mob who the powers that be can mobilise to protect their interests.

I don't think anyone is thinking that the drivers are at the end of the food-chain. The money flows up naturally.

The problem is that this syndicate has grown too powerful. They have a frequent flow of money, which will keep them in the power. It's easy to buy new friends in a place that have no backbone.

If there is any way to disturb the flow of money ending up to the pockets of the syndicate, that's the way to lessen their power. That's also the reason why so many people are taking sides of the Russians, instead of the local taxi mafia.

If the local taxi syndicate would loose it's power, it might be more easy to hit the future powers with the law. Maybe not, maybe not here.. but that's still a candle light at the end of the tunnel. Something to hope for.

I like your thinking. Yes, one can only hope Thailand can figure out a way to grow, evolve, and improve. It is beyond many of us to conceive of how that could happen, but one can only hope. The direction the nation appears to be going tends not to leave one with much hope, but for those of us who love this place, hope does provide a bit of light. Thanks for that.

After the parents charged officially Mr. Rosenthal, the police report will mention the amount of their "moral" claim for the scandal...

If he pays - due to the media, a huge sum - the charges in Thailand will be dropped.

Idem dito for the US. He will still remain suspect...in the US.

By the way, he's from Chicago...

She accepted money = prostitution (no rape)

Now, if you want to send the guy 10 years in jail in the US, what is your defenition of "obscenity for personal gratification" during the 20 minutes in the hotel ?

You are absolutely incorrect. The US government could not give a rats ass what the Thai government. Read your law. He is subject to US law, and they will pursue him. The only way he can get away with this, is if the Thai authorities do not alert the American authorities. That is very unlikely. In the case of a 16, or 17 year old maybe, but a 13 year old will be an absolute conviction, and he will serve at least 10 years. Case closed. No evidence required, other than the fact that he was caught red handed.

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Yes, absolutely without any doubt. He is subject to American law, anywhere in the world. The police WILL contact the US Embassy, and they will dispatch an assistant US attorney overnight. He will pick Neal up in handcuffs and take him back to Washington, where he WILL be charged with statutory rape. Unless he has $1,000,000 US, to spend on attorneys he will be convicted, and will serve 10 years or more, in a federal penitentiary. This is considered very serious stuff, and for good reason. Basically, this guys life is over. Not saying I agree with the extreme judicial approach, but as an American you had better stick with 18 and up. Why would a guy need anyone younger than that, anyway?

For your information :

The age of consent in Thailand is 15 (with the below caveat) as specified by article 279 of the Thai Criminal Code.

The current legislation applies to all regardless of gender and/or sexual orientation.

However parts of the Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, which disallow any sexual contact with prostitutes under the age of 18, are widely interpreted by some local authorities to cover sexual acts classed as "obscenity for personal gratification".

Also from the Penal Code Amendment Act of 1997 Section 283bis, having sex with a child under 18 is a compoundable offense even with the consent of that person.

The parent or the child may file charges against the other side if he or she later regrets his or her own action.

This ostensibly makes the Thai unfettered age of consent 18.

A high profile example of this application of the law was a statutory rape charge filed against the lead singer of the Thai band Big Ass for allegedly having had sex with a (then) 16 year old girl. The charge was filed by the girl after the singer refused to take responsibility for her baby. The singer has since been cleared of being the baby's father due to the results of a paternity test and he received 2 years suspended sentence

Yes, but Americans are subject to American law, anywhere in the world, as long as they hold US citizenship. This is a fact. All others may be subject to Thai law, but the important fact here, is that this DOES NOT apply to Americans.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

>>Pairoj Sahod, President of Cherng Talay Taxi co-operative, also charged the Russian tour companies on Phuket with collusion.

Well I think it is all the taxi and tuk tuk organizations that should be charged with collusion, especially seeing as not one driver can undercut another driver as to the fare for a paying customer. Lets start wtih the patong association run by the mayors son, piya, then look at the kata/karon "association" and now that the cherng talaly co-op is popping off, let's look at them for collusion also as none of these drivers in these ranks can undercut anyone driver.

The taxi groups in both Phuket, and Samui are more powerful than the local, state, or even federal government. More powerful than the police. Nobody can, or will control these insects. They get away with charging 200 baht for 2km., or less. They should be completely disbanded, and their cars should all be set on fire, but nothing ever changes. On so many levels, Thailand is traveling backwards.

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Yes, absolutely without any doubt. He is subject to American law, anywhere in the world. The police WILL contact the US Embassy, and they will dispatch an assistant US attorney overnight. He will pick Neal up in handcuffs and take him back to Washington, where he WILL be charged with statutory rape. Unless he has $1,000,000 US, to spend on attorneys he will be convicted, and will serve 10 years or more, in a federal penitentiary. This is considered very serious stuff, and for good reason. Basically, this guys life is over. Not saying I agree with the extreme judicial approach, but as an American you had better stick with 18 and up. Why would a guy need anyone younger than that, anyway?

I wish a campaign like this would come to Samui. It is perhaps the most neglected tourist area in all of Thailand. Trash everywhere. Very, very few of the beautiful beaches are not covered with trash, and plastic bottles. Where is the pride? Why such neglect? When so much money is being made, why are so few willing to give anything back? Where is the mayor? Why does the surat Thani governor not care? For as little as $2500 per month, every beach could be cleaned once a month. Every beach on this island! It feels as if samui is being mismanaged at nearly every level. What a crime, and what a shame. I love samui, but it feels as if it going downhill, quickly.

A misunderstanding ?.

Sounds like she did it, that's the last place anyone should steal from. This is going to be a hard lesson learned.

A misunderstanding is the catch phrase for a thai officer who is busted. This looks like a set up that the press was never supposed to find out about. Nobody steals a camera from the cops. Knowing the Thai police it was an older camera. Who would do that? No, sounds like the ranong police were busted, and this was the extent of their creativity.

Quite a few posters seem eager to go to jail for defamation, judging from their posts suggesting, implying or stating outright that a police officer falsely accused this tourist of theft, but I believe they have to try harder to achieve that result. I suggest they go to the police station and say it to the officer’s face.

As for the tourist, judiciary rules say that she is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court, and I, for one, have the patience to wait for the court decision. Incidentally, this legal presumption of innocence applies even in a case of strong prima facie evidence or a confession and it does not imply that an accusation is false -- it is simply how the justice system works.

Justice System?? Thailand?? WORKS?!?!

Dude, ease off the coconut milk~!

We all want to know what justice system you are referring to. Have you faced a Thai judge? Have you actually seen Thai justice at work? Have you see the presentations by expert witnesses here? Have you dealt with honest thai cops? Oh, and yes, please come after all of us for defamation of character. What character?

There is no point in guessing. You do not know, have absolutely no idea, of what actually happened!

Exactly right. Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. People have gone to jail for little or nothing. Why has no journalist gone to interview her and find out her side of the story? She could be in prison for not cooperating but it might not have had anything to do with any overstay. Authorities at Swampy in May 2010 charged an overstay of 5000 baht despite being presented with documentation that the passport had been in a locked embassy on Wireless Road that was declared off limits by Thai police causing all embassies to close for over a week.

Customs officers pay huge money for middle level positions, just so they can collect obscene sums to build new villas, and purchase new luxury cars. Do you think they have any interest in legitimate excuses, when it cuts into their income? What percent of what they are doing is real, honest work?

Well, K Porames, I'm pretty sure his family can arrange for your wish to come true! Bet you wouldn't say that if you were in a room with no protection and a couple of his loved ones. Coward.

Exactly. The words of a truly tiny man, who feels zero remorse. So, why didn't he just kill himself. The entire universe would have rejoiced, that he is no longer consuming oxygen he does not deserve. That this cockroach expresses remorse only after he was arrested says it all. A 13 year old girl, in a mans body.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The two powerfully built, still need guns?

Are you serious? A fistfight? That requires a real man, and not a 16 year old coward girl hiding behind a handgun.

Essentially this means that some poor mom and pop vendors will go to jail or pay fines. NONE of the guys who are the major producers of the goods will EVER see jail time, as they have the means to buy off the toy police. There is no crime here that cannot be made to go away with the right payment, to the correct insect. As long as Thailand continues to bury its head in the sand in this regard, they will remain on the international pirate lists. Period. End of story.

This is a hugely important topic. It may be one of the determining factors, when it comes to Thailand maintiaining it's place in the world. I see them slipping dramatically over the next 30 years. The fact that most Thai people simply refuse to read books, newspapers without a lot of photos, etc, may push them back, and prevent the country from developing a truly literate base. Of course the educators, and the parents are largely to blame. But, how do you convince a child that reading is a good thing for them to do with their time, when they do not have a single friend, or peer who reads? Even smart people rarely pick up a book in this truly enigmatic country.

Since Thailand has been moving steadily up over the last 40 years and reading has been declining I wonder what would trigger this dramatic slippage? Are other countries reading a lot more of late?

By all standards, Thailand has been slipping for the past 4-5 years. So, not sure what surveys, or studies you have been reading, but the trend is reversing itself. When it comes to education, and infrastructure, the neighbors are gaining. Likewise, with economic development.

Putting on my Thai policeman's hat I'd say - young & old in the U.S. do heaps of reading both print & electronic and look where its got that country......on a downward spiral akin to the last decades of ancient Roman & not so ancient Britain. Maybe not reading is a kinda good idea esp. if one can learn so much taking off for a few hours to Patpong, Patong or Pattaya.

Your logic is simply flawed. Many other factors causing the decline of the American empire. The thai people would benefit tremendously by opening up their horizons, and abandoning the comic books!

The so called public defender has not lodged charges yet. What can be made of this occurrence? Lack of courage, in the face of millions of baht? These Tiger disco rodents are super rich. One can only assume they own the police. So, how can we expect and hope for charges? The prosecutors title should be changed to creton's defender, or totally not public defender. Even when gazillionaire disco owners cause multiple deaths, they are free to open even larger facilities right across the street, and continue their hazardous, and murderous ways. How about a major PR campaign against the insects that own the new death trap?