jayboy

I am not sure that it is hypocrisy. I am guessing that a lot of people were critical of some of the things that Mandela did as young man when he advocated violent revolution, but became very respectful of him after he was released from prison and went on to forgive his enemies, bring his whole country together and keep the peace. He was not born a great man. He became one.

But surely he had the right to advocate and participate in the armed struggle given the apartheid system in South Africaa. and the denial of democracy to the majority.Bill Clinton made the same point in his tribute to Mandela today, namely that the American colonials participated in the armed struggle against the empire of King George.I don't think Mandela's revolutionary past can be held against him at all.

I have often thought that those years in prison and the isolation, made him appreciate many of the things that the rest of us overlook. He seemed to appreciate other people -- in the way that a person who had experienced isolation would simply enjoy seeing and talking to another person, even if it was somebody that most of us would not. I think the boredom gave him a special appreciation and happiness about some of the more mundane things that go with fame.

In the stream of life, some rocks get worn down and some get polished. He definitely got polished and he shone brightly with time.

Very nicely put.The quality I most honour was his magnanimity and his generous spiritedness - something he shared with Winston Churchill.He was able to relate as a human even to those who kept him captive.It is no coincidence that his white Afrikaaner prison guards revered him.

He had a lot that both sides in Thailand could learn from - but that discussion is for another day.

 

This proofs again that Yingluck is a not capable of managing any kind of situation (unless the whole thing is a set up and she knows her son will leave the school soon).

 

 

 

 

 

Ah so Yingluck is responsible. Thank you for pointing this out as I don't think this would have occurred to most people.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Will Thaksin surrender at the same time. Accept his responsibility for rebellion and treason for 2010? because if Suthep is really guilty of these charges, then what charges could be layed on Thaksin for 2010?

But the circumstances were nowhere near the same were they?

In 2010 the Democrats had wormed their way into power and were only representing the elite in Bangkok. They had not been elected into power and certainly were not expressing or representing the interests of Thai citizens in the north and north-east and they were continually procrastinating regarding demands to hold a proper general election. Their demands for a general election culminated in violence.

This current round of violence was an attempt to overthrow a properly elected government and as such was treason.

Oh boy, another poster who should read up on 2010 again.

The Democrat party formed a government December 2008 when a majority of MP voted for Abhisit as PM. They had a small majority of MPs. Now don't try to tell me all those 'only' represented 'Bangkok elite'.

As for 'procrastinating regarding demands to hold new general elections', there was no legal obligation to hold new general elections before the expiration of the four year term since the last general election. Abhisit offered to dissolve the House for elections late 2010, but after initial acceptance a phonecall from afar let the UDD reject the offer. The UDD use of violence led to more violence.

This current round of protests started when the government tried to pass a 'blanket amnesty bill' and even had the gall to say "please wait, there's more procedure to follow'. When if all had stayed home guilty the Senate would have justly thought "no protests, no comments? we vote OK". Most protesters just want the government to step down after all undemocratic actions to just take care of Thaksin and call a new election.

BTW for your information there's also a bit of Thailand South of Bangkok.

Actually according to Suthep, who is after all the leader of the current protest, the last thing the protestors want is a new election. They first want to appoint a people's council, which of course has no mandate whatsoever and which is highly unconstitutional.

I wonder how dear Suthep is going to make sure PT cannot win a general election anymore, maybe he will transfer Issaan back to Laos and Cambodia, ask the North to start their long lost Lanna Kingdom and then call elections in what's left of Thailand. I guess then, and only then he has a good chance of seeing the democrats win these !

It seems so much hard work when the real solution is surely to reform the Democrat Party, detoxify its tainted leadership (Abhisut surely has to go) and (most importantly) provide a programme that the Thai people can subscribe to at the next general election.The Democrat Party has, unlike the PTP, a long and proud past when it was not hitched to the military or feudal interests.If the reforms are made Thaksinism can be defeated.But the behaviour of the party in the last couple of weeks has been stomach turning - so no early improvement expected.

On another point, the English and grammar mistakes in Kavi's op-ed piece or any other English language newspaper in Thailand article don't bother me nor make the article any less interesting for me. And whether I agree with it or not ... it's an opinion and not "news". The opposite opinions are out there too.

Up to a point I agree.But Kavi's article is so riddled with basic errors (eg chronograph for choreograph) to the extent that it becomes distracting.The Nation is an English language newspaper and Kavi is one of its key columnists:thus there is a responsibility to get this right and it can be easily done.

Jayboy

"Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done."

There are considerable threads and discussions on TV referencing Suthep and his past over the last few weeks. All easily found. But of course, whether that constitutes much or not is subjective.

For the second time. I was responding to a poster who wanted to posit that Thaksin was really innocent and would be the best leader for Thailand. Interesting how you seem to think the post supporting Thaksin is on topic whilst one offering the opposite view is off topic. Easier to dismiss facts as off topic isn't it.

As already pointed out this thread isn't about Thaksin.As already pointed out his crimes and failings are well known.Whatever you say there hasn't been that much focus on Suthep's background.In contrast there are some who will find it appropriate to drag in Thaksin even if the subject is how to deal with soi dogs.None of this really matters even if slightly comic.But it does highlight a certain myopic mindset that attributes all Thailand's problems to a single man (some of them obviously are). As to Suthep (and as at 18.00 Sunday the saga has yet to be played out) it does seem rather odd that the "educate" folks on the streets accept as their champion someone corrupt, so dishonest, so caught up in dirty politics and by some accounts so stained with blood.

Indeed. It does seem some posters are fixated with defending Thaksin and attacking his opponents whatever the topic or however the discussion progresses and meanders. In the same way it is indeed odd that so many people from all walks of life, strata of society and different backgrounds came out to protest against a bill that would have allowed so many to whitewash their crimes. I'm sure many protesters don't have any illusions about Suthep. But maybe they, rightly or wrongly consider Suthep the lesser of two evils? Sad the choice isn't about the higher of two excellent non corrupt brilliant leaders, but that's politics for you.

Could you just remind us, exactly what crimes has Suthep been convicted of ?

You need to focus on reality.The foolish and ill advised amnesty (which most Thais disliked) was withdrawn.The current protests are not primarily about that.Even an early dissolution doesn't satisfy Suthep.He is against democracy itself because he knows his side could have huge difficulties in winning an election.The mobs on the streets do not represent all walks of life.Key groups are the Sino Thai middle class, Southerners and vocational students.I note "what crimes has he been convicted of?" you are still trying to defend Suthep.Good luck with that.

Jayboy

"Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done."

There are considerable threads and discussions on TV referencing Suthep and his past over the last few weeks. All easily found. But of course, whether that constitutes much or not is subjective.

For the second time. I was responding to a poster who wanted to posit that Thaksin was really innocent and would be the best leader for Thailand. Interesting how you seem to think the post supporting Thaksin is on topic whilst one offering the opposite view is off topic. Easier to dismiss facts as off topic isn't it.

As already pointed out this thread isn't about Thaksin.As already pointed out his crimes and failings are well known.Whatever you say there hasn't been that much focus on Suthep's background.In contrast there are some who will find it appropriate to drag in Thaksin even if the subject is how to deal with soi dogs.None of this really matters even if slightly comic.But it does highlight a certain myopic mindset that attributes all Thailand's problems to a single man (some of them obviously are). As to Suthep (and as at 18.00 Sunday the saga has yet to be played out) it does seem rather odd that the "educate" folks on the streets accept as their champion someone corrupt, so dishonest, so caught up in dirty politics and by some accounts so stained with blood.

Chainarong

The crime which Thaksin has been convicted for in Thailand , is not recognised in Westminster England , it is unique to Thailand .

In other countries a woman can legitimately purchase land as Mrs Shinawatra did , without her husband having to sign a consent .

Only the fact that Thaksin was Prime Minister or member of the government made it a crime in Thailand, but not anywhere else .

This anti Thaksin campaign at the behest of Elite , Middle Class , Democrats is effectively " Cutting Off The Nose To Spite The Face ".

For all his faults , and who in Thailand is without fault in similar measure , Thaksin still remains the strongest and best man to lead Thailand .

The Coup was a terrible error of judgement , that Thailand may have to suffer the consequences of for years to come .

You are joking? Research the circumstances regarding how the land was seized and purchased. Check up on laws changed to facilitate tax avoidance. Check out the other more serious outstanding criminal charges the fugitive is anxious not to face.

The elite HiSo's clearly don't want a change from their years of raking in massive wealth and fortunes at the expense of the poor. The want to retain the system that allows them to acquire huge wealth and also act above the law in any capacity including murder as we've seen repeatedly.

All Thaksin wants is to replace these families with his own. Period. Through a few crumbs to the poor while his family enrich themselves, put themselves above the law and implement a police state dynasty. Strong - sure if you equate no morals, ethics or conscious to strength - like Mugabe, Hun Set, Mao, Castro etc. Best man - not in a million years.

Give us a break.Thaksin's errors are well documented but the thread is about Suthep's panel.Suthep's murky and corrupt past is well set out in David Eimer's piece in the South China Morning Post.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1369801/thai-protest-leader-suthep-son-elite-axe-grind

Try reading the post I was responding to before you type, See how many times the poster used the word Thaksin,

You've posted many comments on many threads about Suthep. We get the message.

Interesting that you use the expression "Thaksin's errors" rather than words like actions, crimes etc. Do you think these are really just simple errors? One could even say "honest mistakes"

Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done.

Chainarong

The crime which Thaksin has been convicted for in Thailand , is not recognised in Westminster England , it is unique to Thailand .

In other countries a woman can legitimately purchase land as Mrs Shinawatra did , without her husband having to sign a consent .

Only the fact that Thaksin was Prime Minister or member of the government made it a crime in Thailand, but not anywhere else .

This anti Thaksin campaign at the behest of Elite , Middle Class , Democrats is effectively " Cutting Off The Nose To Spite The Face ".

For all his faults , and who in Thailand is without fault in similar measure , Thaksin still remains the strongest and best man to lead Thailand .

The Coup was a terrible error of judgement , that Thailand may have to suffer the consequences of for years to come .

You are joking? Research the circumstances regarding how the land was seized and purchased. Check up on laws changed to facilitate tax avoidance. Check out the other more serious outstanding criminal charges the fugitive is anxious not to face.

The elite HiSo's clearly don't want a change from their years of raking in massive wealth and fortunes at the expense of the poor. The want to retain the system that allows them to acquire huge wealth and also act above the law in any capacity including murder as we've seen repeatedly.

All Thaksin wants is to replace these families with his own. Period. Through a few crumbs to the poor while his family enrich themselves, put themselves above the law and implement a police state dynasty. Strong - sure if you equate no morals, ethics or conscious to strength - like Mugabe, Hun Set, Mao, Castro etc. Best man - not in a million years.

Give us a break.Thaksin's errors are well documented but the thread is about Suthep's panel.Suthep's murky and corrupt past is well set out in David Eimer's piece in the South China Morning Post.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1369801/thai-protest-leader-suthep-son-elite-axe-grind

I am very familiar with Harrow Bangkok and have several Thai friends/acquaintances with children there.I never discuss politics with them:they would be amazed if they knew my views.They would I imagine all be opponents of this government to a greater or lesser degree.What I find quite impossible to believe is that they would stoop to the level of blowing whistles at a child because of that child's parent's political position.That would show a lack of class which would be wholly out of character.

I am saddened to hear that Abhisit was involved in such a farce. What is the U.S. government supposed to do? Take a side in this internal conflict? It's normal to deal with the current legal government whatever it is when there are relations between nations, and there are relations between the USA and Thailand. It doesn't mean the U.S. government is endorsing the government or fighting the opposition. That's not their role. The USA can't win. When it acts imperialistic it is justifiably dissed and when it doesn't its dissed as well.

So does this mean more of this faction are becoming more anti-American? How does their level of anti-Americanism compare to the red and PTP side? As an American living in Thailand, I suppose it would be useful to know.

You are right.To me one of the saddest aspects of this saga is the failure of Abhisit and Korn to show any kind of moral backbone.To oppose the government aggressively is absolutely legitimate but their cynical opportunism and hypocrisy in the last few weeks is sickening.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

If Democrats = yellow shirts what about Pheu Thai with about two dozen red-shirts as party list MPs, including three UDD co-leaders.

BTW do you know when Professor Benedict made the remark quoted?

Time Magazine gets it right.

http://world.time.com/2013/11/28/thailands-democrat-party-is-hilariously-misnamed/

Professor Anderson made the remarks at Chiangmai University just over a couple of years ago.They have recently been repeated on Prachatai but I'm afraid I don't have a link to hand.

So because people engage in debate (or full blown arguments) with people who could be described as politically aligned, they therefore must be non-partisan? And we should forget about the 100's of posts made by NN, on NM, here and elsewhere suggesting otherwise...?

You know as well as I do that Andrew Spoooooner could well be described as "paranoid" (to put it very mildly), and is prepared to fire off any accusation - maybe it's just for the attention. Only yesterday he was accusing BP of having a hidden agenda with the Dems. For real.

He is completely wrong.The BP agenda for the Democrat Party not hidden at all.

Meanwhile I see the appalling comments and threats (mostly deleted by mods - many thanks by the way) on this thread about the assault, including some from a few who should have known better, have caught the attention of others.

Anyway as a nod to the crazies and the haters, here is a piece fron Tony Cartalucci on the subject.To say it is nuttier than a fruit cake is doing a disservice to fruit cakes.

http://altthainews.blogspot.com/2013/11/german-journalist-attacked-at-thai.html

In terms of describing Suthep and his followers there has been much discussion on the appropriate designation.The following currently seems to be the most favoured:

Committee of Really Educate Thais Intent on Nailing Shinawatras.

It seems the cynical violent behaviour of Suthep and the Democrats is now being actively discussed.

The Asian Sentinel reports:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/politics/thailand-opposition-goes-violent/

So you and Khun Korn have completely different reactions to the thuggish assault on a journalist.His was honourable and gentlemanly.Yours is snide and unpleasant and devoid of class.Still I'm guessing you are not an Old Wykehamist like Korn, his school motto being Manners Makkyth Man.

I see your still sticking to the formula of misdirecting topics and commenting on posters instead of topics, lucky I didn't make a spelling mistake or you would put on your spelling natzi hat too. To say I have little respect for 'Nikolaus Freiherr von Nostitz' the prince of Silesia and his bias work is an understatement.

I don't think I have ever been a spelling "natzi".

As for Nick Nostitz, a brave and talented journalist, his work speaks for itself.It's straightforward however to recognise who has class - and who does not.

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz. After Bluesky TV had a section devoted to him insisiting he works for the reds (total nonsense as we know), unfortunately it then appears Nick was assaulted (not sure how badly injured he is) after being singled out by a Democrat MP from the stage:

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Democrat MP Chumpon pointed him out from the protest stage calling him a "red shirt journalist" and urged the crowd to kick him out.

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Nick said it was seconds before the first fists hit him. He is filing charges and this rules out him covering the yellow protests

He also appears to have been singled out on the Blue SkyTV FB page: https://www.facebook.com/BLUESKYChannel/posts/406698986099538

Anyway, people complaining that the anti-govt protests are not receiving coverage. Well, they were on Channel 3 last night. It'd be understandable if Channel 3 were reluctant to show them again though after they apparently forced their way in and demanded that Sorrayuth blow a whistle and apologize...

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 49m

Getting disgusting! While Sorayuth urged for peaceful expression & respect for different opinions, protesters demanded him to apologize.

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 46m

Protesters demanding Sorayuth to blow a whistle, handed to him by Democrat politician. > #Intimidation

I was very sorry to hear of this earlier today on twitter.An appalling incident (as was the intimidation of Sorayuth).I think it's worth recording that when Jonathan Head (BBC) brought Khun Korn's attention to the assault on Nick by thugs after being egged on by a Democrat MP, Korn acted very honourably and recorded his disgust at this thuggery, and undertook to get to the bottom of it.Good to know that there are at least a few gentlemen in the Democrat Party.

Yes, I was just looking at that. I think it's actually one of Korn's staff, not Korn himself (https://twitter.com/teamkorn). But it's still good that he's condemned the attack, as I'm sure Korn himself would have.

Jonathan Head ‏@pakhead 4h @noppatjak @teamkorn Pls tell crowds - they may no like our reporting but we are trying to be open-minded and do need to report the demos

JH is on the mark, of course. If foreign journalists feel too intimidated to cover protests, then it's obvious protests won't be receiving much coverage abroad. This thing with Nick is surely related to his coverage of the PAD protests in 08. But even someone who ran a pro-PAD website agreed that what Nick reported was correct after an initial argument IIRC. Good thing Dan Rivers isn't there, I suppose.

I think Nick's distinguishing characteristic is courage.

I cannot think that a Bangkok based foreign correspondent would not value his work highly.

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz. After Bluesky TV had a section devoted to him insisiting he works for the reds (total nonsense as we know), unfortunately it then appears Nick was assaulted (not sure how badly injured he is) after being singled out by a Democrat MP from the stage:

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Democrat MP Chumpon pointed him out from the protest stage calling him a "red shirt journalist" and urged the crowd to kick him out.

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Nick said it was seconds before the first fists hit him. He is filing charges and this rules out him covering the yellow protests

He also appears to have been singled out on the Blue SkyTV FB page: https://www.facebook.com/BLUESKYChannel/posts/406698986099538

Anyway, people complaining that the anti-govt protests are not receiving coverage. Well, they were on Channel 3 last night. It'd be understandable if Channel 3 were reluctant to show them again though after they apparently forced their way in and demanded that Sorrayuth blow a whistle and apologize...

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 49m

Getting disgusting! While Sorayuth urged for peaceful expression & respect for different opinions, protesters demanded him to apologize.

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 46m

Protesters demanding Sorayuth to blow a whistle, handed to him by Democrat politician. > #Intimidation

I was very sorry to hear of this earlier today on twitter.An appalling incident (as was the intimidation of Sorayuth).I think it's worth recording that when Jonathan Head (BBC) brought Khun Korn's attention to the assault on Nick by thugs after being egged on by a Democrat MP, Korn acted very honourably and recorded his disgust at this thuggery, and undertook to get to the bottom of it.Good to know that there are at least a few gentlemen in the Democrat Party.

That the dangers of being a partisan reporter, the chances are you end up being the news instead of reporting it. Perhaps he should have stuck to reporting from the Rajamangala National Stadium where the other rats are holed up.

So you and Khun Korn have completely different reactions to the thuggish assault on a journalist.His was honourable and gentlemanly.Yours is snide and unpleasant and devoid of class.Still I'm guessing you are not an Old Wykehamist like Korn, his school motto being Manners Makkyth Man.

Most Thaivisa posters will no doubt be familiar with photojournalist Nick Nostitz. After Bluesky TV had a section devoted to him insisiting he works for the reds (total nonsense as we know), unfortunately it then appears Nick was assaulted (not sure how badly injured he is) after being singled out by a Democrat MP from the stage:

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Democrat MP Chumpon pointed him out from the protest stage calling him a "red shirt journalist" and urged the crowd to kick him out.

Anasuya ‏@Anasuya 2h

Nick said it was seconds before the first fists hit him. He is filing charges and this rules out him covering the yellow protests

He also appears to have been singled out on the Blue SkyTV FB page: https://www.facebook.com/BLUESKYChannel/posts/406698986099538

Anyway, people complaining that the anti-govt protests are not receiving coverage. Well, they were on Channel 3 last night. It'd be understandable if Channel 3 were reluctant to show them again though after they apparently forced their way in and demanded that Sorrayuth blow a whistle and apologize...

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 49m

Getting disgusting! While Sorayuth urged for peaceful expression & respect for different opinions, protesters demanded him to apologize.

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 46m

Protesters demanding Sorayuth to blow a whistle, handed to him by Democrat politician. > #Intimidation

I was very sorry to hear of this earlier today on twitter.An appalling incident (as was the intimidation of Sorayuth).I think it's worth recording that when Jonathan Head (BBC) brought Khun Korn's attention to the assault on Nick by thugs after being egged on by a Democrat MP, Korn acted very honourably and recorded his disgust at this thuggery, and undertook to get to the bottom of it.Good to know that there are at least a few gentlemen in the Democrat Party.

How about you call an election and see what the masses say!

That's exactly what Suthep and his ilk don't want because they know the result may not suit them.Read his words carefully.

So why doesn't PT do what the Dems don't want and call an election?

It's a risk for them too as their support has definitely been falling.But they would still probably win and the opposition know that.However even with a PTP win (probably much narrower than last time) precisely nothing would have been solved.Meanwhile the clock is ticking and the opposition is acutely aware of its nightmare scenario looming.Hence the increaseingly shrill rhetoric about the evils of "majoritarianism" and democracy itself.

How about you call an election and see what the masses say!

That's exactly what Suthep and his ilk don't want because they know the result may not suit them.Read his words carefully.