Nickymaster

Yingluck and her advisers, the so called Ice Cream Gang (read political geniuses) thought that they could do "it" without outspoken Chalerm. Sneaky Yingluck and her team's strategy was fairly obvious; Just Do It without talking too much. Now that Yingluck's game isn't working as planned, heavyweight Chalerm is back into the picture with of course a much better plan that certainly can be realized within 2 months... Remember that Chalerm said earlier this year that the public could behead him if Thaksin is not back before the end of the year.

Yingluck's Ice Cream gang

I love the ice cream gang! Especially because this pic pissed chalermy off so much!

Yep, too funny:

"And now there's an 'ice-cream gang' at Government House," he said.

Chalerm added that Yingluck should have veteran politicians around her so she can be shielded from political attacks.

"Now, she has only dogs around her and she will face her demise as prime minister as nobody will respect her," he said

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Chalerm-warns-Yingluck-of-her-ice-cream-gang-30209762.html

A political leader needed a “tiger” to shadow him or her everywhere, he said. Any leader picking a “dog” to follow them faced disaster, he added.

http://pattayatoday.net/news/thailand-news/chalerm-sends-warning-to-pm-2/

Yingluck and her advisers, the so called Ice Cream Gang (read political geniuses) thought that they could do "it" without outspoken Chalerm. Sneaky Yingluck and her team's strategy was fairly obvious; Just Do It without talking too much. Now that Yingluck's game isn't working as planned, heavyweight Chalerm is back into the picture with of course a much better plan that certainly can be realized within 2 months... Remember that Chalerm said earlier this year that the public could behead him if Thaksin is not back before the end of the year.

Yingluck's Ice Cream gang

Many TV posters have understandably expressed hopes that Mr. T's government will pull back from this potentially destructive bill but he has he has one foot in the door and is supposed to have said last week he doesn't know how to spell ' lose '.

The importance of face in Thai culture makes it difficult for the simplest of U-turns as even a ' for the good of the country ' excuse will be seen as defeat and that's not something he will be able to take. I am afraid that DL has staked too much on this and will happily let the country descend into all sorts of chaos no matter the disasterous effect on the people that he professes to love so much, well if they support and vote for him that is.

No matter what happens here he is above it all, he can sit in Dubai and enjoy his money, travel at will and deny stiff that it had anything to do with him.

Difficult to U Turn? Do you actually follow Thailand news? Every day there is a politician or bureaucrat doing a U turn from a previous days statement or program proposal. Thailand is the HUB of U turns...lol

Yes this twisting and turning will never end but things are not good for the Shins at the moment. The have created a huge mess, economically and politically.

Meanwhile....Chalerm has stated that he has a "substitue" amnesty bill covering only "victims" like protesters and TS, not "murderers".

Seriously!

Guys, please address Yingluck correctly! She is the Prime Minister AND Defense Minister of Thailand.

This creepy person is living the high life with the money of hard working Thai tax payers .

Hard working Thai taxpayers??? You won't be slagging the bloke off when he gets back though will you.

You won't be slagging the bloke off when he gets back though will you.

Of course not

I loved the way the driver took her time to make a pic while he was in a hurry to get out of there !!

Funny and strange situation. Under normal circumstances, even a bit disrespectful.

Be nice to hear from all the red shirt / PTP sympathetic posters on here who have, since this amnesty bill idea was proposed by PTP all those months ago, insisted that it wasn't about Thaksin, and that people shouldn't rush to conclusions and should patiently wait.

If you don't feel stupid, you certainly should do. You know who you are.

I don't feel stupid.

Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues

I respect red leader Weng for being able to deceive his Red Shirts by choosing not to vote no after the leadership said they were opposed to amnesty .

Respect for the courage to lie to red shirts who have a long history of violence and retribution.

.

Well good for you. You won't feel lonely with those views. Oh and don't edit the #$@& out of my posts, there's a good boy.

I know the truth about Thaksin and his Red Shirt leaders is a bitter pill to swallow but please don't get emotional. It's only a debate we are having.

Why didn't they vote against it as they said they would?

Now stick with me here and try and remain neutral, I know it's hard for you, but try.

Just imagine that enough PTP MP's had decided to vote against the bill, as requested by the democrats, that their vote coupled with the dems would have defeated the bill. What would they have felt when they saw the dems walking out? Why would you trust the democrat party?

So seeing that they cannot get into parliament by normal means, what do they do. Organise street protests in the hope that it will draw the attention of the Army who already have their amnesty through the constitution, the very constitution the dems wouldn't let the PTP change by coming up with specious challenges to the Constitution Court..

You want to talk about low.

Just imagine that enough PTP MP's had decided to vote against the bill, as requested by the democrats, that their vote coupled with the dems would have defeated the bill. What would they have felt when they saw the dems walking out? Why would you trust the democrat party?

Why imagine something that any sane person knows will never happen.

-Haven't you heard that Thaksin told the PT MPs to vote in favor of the bill? So you want people to image that PT MPs would not listen to paymaster Thaksin.

- Didn't you know that the best plan PT/Thaksin could come up with was to have three protest leaders not vote so at least they could confuse the Reds?

Are you confused or are you thinking everybody else is confused?

4 of them didn't vote for the bill. Ah, I see, it's one of Thaksins' cunning plans.

That's the best you can do? Childish. Why not be a man and reply in a normal way?

Be nice to hear from all the red shirt / PTP sympathetic posters on here who have, since this amnesty bill idea was proposed by PTP all those months ago, insisted that it wasn't about Thaksin, and that people shouldn't rush to conclusions and should patiently wait.

If you don't feel stupid, you certainly should do. You know who you are.

I don't feel stupid. I felt that they would not do something as stupid. They have, or should I say, certain members of the committee have. If the original bill had gone forward and not been ambushed by the voting committee there would not have been all this commotion.

Likewise all those posters crowing about how upstanding the democrats were in voting against the bill - it'll be nice to hear from them too. How many times now is it that they boycott votes?

Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues for at least having the guts to abstain rather than boycott the vote altogether. So much for the dems asking the PTP to vote against with them, what vote.

The Democrat Party is as much to blame as any here - whats their response - we'll head to the streets.

"The Democrat Party is as much to blame as any here"

How low can you go in defence of PTP and Thaksin? There's not that much bottom to reach for.

Why didn't they vote against it as they said they would?

Now stick with me here and try and remain neutral, I know it's hard for you, but try.

Just imagine that enough PTP MP's had decided to vote against the bill, as requested by the democrats, that their vote coupled with the dems would have defeated the bill. What would they have felt when they saw the dems walking out? Why would you trust the democrat party?

So seeing that they cannot get into parliament by normal means, what do they do. Organise street protests in the hope that it will draw the attention of the Army who already have their amnesty through the constitution, the very constitution the dems wouldn't let the PTP change by coming up with specious challenges to the Constitution Court..

You want to talk about low.

Just imagine that enough PTP MP's had decided to vote against the bill, as requested by the democrats, that their vote coupled with the dems would have defeated the bill. What would they have felt when they saw the dems walking out? Why would you trust the democrat party?

Why imagine something that any sane person knows will never happen?

-Haven't you heard that Thaksin told the PT MPs to vote in favor of the bill? So you want people to image that PT MPs would not listen to paymaster Thaksin?

- Didn't you know that the best plan PT/Thaksin could come up with was to have three protest leaders not vote so at least they could confuse the Reds?

So are you confused or are you thinking everybody else is confused?

Be nice to hear from all the red shirt / PTP sympathetic posters on here who have, since this amnesty bill idea was proposed by PTP all those months ago, insisted that it wasn't about Thaksin, and that people shouldn't rush to conclusions and should patiently wait.

If you don't feel stupid, you certainly should do. You know who you are.

I don't feel stupid. I felt that they would not do something as stupid. They have, or should I say, certain members of the committee have. If the original bill had gone forward and not been ambushed by the voting committee there would not have been all this commotion.

Likewise all those posters crowing about how upstanding the democrats were in voting against the bill - it'll be nice to hear from them too. How many times now is it that they boycott votes?

Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues for at least having the guts to abstain rather than boycott the vote altogether. So much for the dems asking the PTP to vote against with them, what vote.

The Democrat Party is as much to blame as any here - whats their response - we'll head to the streets.

"Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues for at least having the guts to abstain rather than boycott the vote altogether."

How is abstaining a show of guts? If they don't like it they should vote against it.

"The Democrat Party is as much to blame as any here - whats their response - we'll head to the streets."

It's not a Democratic issue anymore... It's an issue of what the people of Thailand want, and yes they have every right to take to the streets. The protests are beyond color as I see it.

And not voting at all, but walking out is a show of, just what exactly, petulance?

The other paper has a fine picture of democrat MP's watching, (whilst still in parliament during the amnesty bill debate?), tv coverage of the Democrat Party / Suthep led street protest

Did Suthep also tell the protestors to bring a bottle of gasoline to burn down the city in case the 3rd bill would pass?

Be nice to hear from all the red shirt / PTP sympathetic posters on here who have, since this amnesty bill idea was proposed by PTP all those months ago, insisted that it wasn't about Thaksin, and that people shouldn't rush to conclusions and should patiently wait.

If you don't feel stupid, you certainly should do. You know who you are.

I don't feel stupid. I felt that they would not do something as stupid. They have, or should I say, certain members of the committee have. If the original bill had gone forward and not been ambushed by the voting committee there would not have been all this commotion.

Likewise all those posters crowing about how upstanding the democrats were in voting against the bill - it'll be nice to hear from them too. How many times now is it that they boycott votes?

Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues for at least having the guts to abstain rather than boycott the vote altogether. So much for the dems asking the PTP to vote against with them, what vote.

The Democrat Party is as much to blame as any here - whats their response - we'll head to the streets.

Respect to Dr Weng and his colleagues for at least having the guts to abstain rather than boycott the vote altogether.

Amazing person you are. I think you have no clue what you are talking about...or..

You should have said:" Shame on Weng for betraying his Red shirt followers. Ho has done NOTHING to stop this bill. Only thing he is doing is not voting. Which has no effect on the outcome. It is clear that Thaksin is more important for him.

Wasn't Weng preaching for years that he would take Abhisit to the ICJ? He must have been lying.

And do you honestly think that the NACC is any more independent than the DSI?

Well, look at the fact that the director of the DSI, Khun Tarit, was also a member of the "Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation" or CRES, who ordered the crack-down of the April 2010. Now, this same Tarit is investigating against the members of the CRES and conveniently forgets his own responsibility.

So much for the "Independence" of the DSI.

And about the independence of the Office of the Attorney General: The day after they indicted Abhisit and Suthep, the Yingluck government gave them a hefty raise of salary. Coincidence? Hardly.

Small correction, not a hefty raise of salary but a bonus.

We are talking about the actions of the OAG. DSI claimed Red shirts and MIB killed many people (and have forwarded the information to the OAG in 2010) and (today) the OAG basically says that those people don't exist.

So all very normal according to you?

What the DSI has claimed in 2010 has maybe raised your expectations. The only thing that was truthful that came out in the period after the crackdown were the leaked preliminary DSI investigation results. The problem lies in the making of the DSI. It was intended to be independent, but ended up being a tool of whoever is in government. Before the elections the upper echelons were a tool of the then government, and now of this government.

In the end though - it is the criminal court which will make the decisions. So, far, having followed several cases quite closely, i found the judgements surprisingly fair and evidence based - and not politically motivated.

But if you go back to the period of 2010 and following, and read some of my posts, where i had to argue to the teeth with some of you about soldiers having shot unarmed protesters - you can also see that i have spoken about particular cases which were judged the way how i described these incidents then.

In case the revised amnesty is not rejected, and the cases against Suthep and Abhisit will go to trial, you can be sure that their legal team will present their evidence. If you feel that the OAG misrepresents the evidence regarding the MIB, you can be sure that the Democrat's legal team will present whatever evidence they have regarding this issue.

It must be a bit stronger though than what the soldiers and members of the Democrat Party who have testified so far have shown. What they presented at court was a mixture of piss poor excuses and outright lies - which in some cases judges have pointed out as well, albeit in a slightly more polite language.

And before i am again accused of being a Thaksin lackey - i am very much against the revised amnesty bill. I believe that amnesty for leaders, soldiers and politicians of all sides should come after the completion of the judicial process. I do not wish to see anyone in prison as it won't make the dead alive again, but i wish that as many facts of what took place should be presented to the public.

Thanks, we are getting somewhere...step by step

What the DSI has claimed in 2010 has maybe raised your expectations. The only thing that was truthful that came out in the period after the crackdown were the leaked preliminary DSI investigation results. The problem lies in the making of the DSI. It was intended to be independent, but ended up being a tool of whoever is in government. Before the elections the upper echelons were a tool of the then government, and now of this government.

Are you saying that the DSI has (could have) made up the existence of Red shirts and MIB (who have killed security forces?). If your answer is yes, then please explain who killed those people mentioned in my earlier post (as was reported by the DSI in Nov 2010). Forget about all the Youtube videos etc. I would like to know your opinion because you have been following these events very closely.

I know you said you are no legal expert but could it be that the DSI have also filed charges against Abhisit and Suthep because of pressure from Thaksin/PT? Could it be that the OAG has accepted the case because it is under pressure from Thaksin/PT?

(next would be the legal aspect of the premeditated murder charge)

What i am saying is that the leaked preliminary investigation results reflected the facts, while the public statements of the DSI, and especially Tarit, as reported at the time, were politically colored. Even though Tarit and the Democrats denied the leaked documents initially, they were still proven to have been true.

I do not pay too much attention what this or the other side claims in public statements. What is of interest to me is the result of investigations and hard evidence. In this way, i do naturally not doubt that on April 10 armed militants fired at and killed a number of soldiers. But - there are certain issues over time line and other aspects that will become highly interesting when political obfuscation is taken out of the equation and facts may be allowed to speak for themselves.

In this sense, regardless of alleged political pressure - in the end evidence and investigations tell the story. While many people believe that the timing of the AOG's decision to indict Suthep and Abhisit may suggest political pressure to conform to the revised amnesty bill, i have my doubts over this theory. The judicial process takes time, and all the necessary steps were followed, such as the results of the inquests on which these indictments are based, additional questioning of witnesses by the DSI, the DSI handing over their investigation results to the OAG, etc.

Don't forget, please, the judgements of the inquests were quite clear, and based on a mountain of evidence, including photos, video footage of both reporters and surveillance cameras, forensic investigations, etc, and in most cases conforming to witness accounts. Political pressure may be able to do some, but it cannot create all that from nothing. Don't forget - in many of the cases journalists have been testifying, including foreign journalists.

As to the legal aspect of the murder charge - i think there may be grounds, but that is my entirely unqualified opinion.

I am going to be lazy and take some text from when Abhisit was interviewed by The Nation concerning the charges (AG). I believe the interview happened yesterday.

Question: What do you think of the charges?

Answer: The strange thing is that they are taking me and Suthep to court in personal capacities on ordinary murder charges, claiming that it had nothing to do with the fact that we were officials who were tasked with keeping order.

Question: What do you think is behind this approach?

Answer: If they were to charge me with abuse of power, then the Department of Special Investigation (on whose investigation the attorney general’s decision was based) would not have the power to investigate me. The case would instead have to go to the National Anti-Corruption Commission, which is an independent body under the constitution.

And as you said Nick: The problem lies in the making of the DSI. It was intended to be independent, but ended up being a tool of whoever is in government. Before the elections the upper echelons were a tool of the then government, and now of this government.

As to the legal aspect of the murder charge - i think there are no grounds.

In a way, I am also against a blanket amnesty.

I would love to see Abhisit and Suthep end up in prison.

However, I also try not to let the very low esteem I have for these two persons blind my views...

The political deadlock should end and it is time to push the reset button.

As much as I think that Suthep is an awful politician, as much as I think that Abhisit is useless for this country and that both should be held responsible for the deaths of 90 protesters, ... I also think that it is time for all sides to end this destructive game.

A blanket amnesty would certainly leave some people unhappy, but the never ending game that is played by the Dems since years is going nowhere.

An amnesty is a way to go back to square one and start on a new base. As mature and adult people.

The only problem is that the Dems are not able to compete on such a new base.

They see the amnesty as a threat because once it is passed they would not know what to do, what to say, and what to fight for...

They should reform themselves, offer something for the future of the country, make themselves appealing to the people, and give away their silly warrior's behavior forever.

The country needs to be reset and brought back to normality.

People who stubbornly obstruct the way to reconciliation should be held responsible too...

For the sake of the country I am ready to swallow the pill... and accept that Abhisit and Suthep don't end up in prison.

Except if they really want to, of course

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

To a point I agree with Gerry. It is so easy for politicians to stir up trouble in Thailand largely due to the pleasures that Thai people seem to relish and need from gossip and conspiracy theories.

By now I suspect that most Thai people consider that the constant barracking Thaksin has become boring. Further perhaps that many people like me have become evermore convinced that Thaksin is a victim of the malice that seems to throb at the heart of the Democrat Party.

Such is the smell of fear emanating from the 'Anti-Thaksin Brigade'. That fear feeds off the slanderous and libelous fecal verbosity that emanates from the Democrats and their allies. Now the nauseating malevolence begins to feel ever more likely that Thaksin is, and always was innocent, of all those accusations for which no juristic person in Thailand could ever produce any tangible evidence of Thaksin's alleged criminality.

So it looks evermore likely that former PM Thaksin really is innocent and that after five years of self exile, a criminal record and a punitive fine of Bt47 Billion needs to be made whole in name of Thaksin. This is with a view to Thailand saving face by negating the Democrat's assertions that Thailand is not and never has been mature enough to be a democracy. Such they believe in spite of the fact that the Great and Revered Monarch of Thailand declared his land to be a constitutional Monarchy in 1932.

Thaksin, already recognized around the World as Thailand's greatest champion of democracy since Thailand became a constitutional monarchy must come home on assurance that his personal safety will be guaranteed.

This is a matter of Thailand's jurisprudence and therefore the Amnesty is not an issue in the Thaksin case.

You are joking right?

I travel the whole world and meet many people because of my work but i have NEVER met a foreigner that has anything good to say about the criminal. Comments I hear most often lately are: "Today, Thaksin and his family are STILL robing Thailand empty. The guy really hasn't learned anything".

Most foreigners, in particular the ones that live in or are frequent visitors to Thailand don't seem to have a grasp of Thai history or politics, are naively distanced from the realities of the average Thai, and the vast majority have only been here since Thaksin came to power, so they don't know anything else.

Agreed. I have been living here for 25 years and I do know who I have to talk to to get an opinion.

double post...

And now back to the topic

Here is a nice review and some really nice pics of the Strada

http://paultan.org/2013/10/30/review-ducati-hyperstrada-821cc/

K thanks so that's way to high for me. Have to wait for the new monster than.

I'm waiting for the new Monster as well. I'm guessing (hoping!) it will have the new engine and the single sided swingarm. That would be an awesome machine

Have you heard anything on release dates etc?

The new monster will have the new testaretta 11° motor 1200cc. There will be a normal 135hp and a S 145hp version; S version with oehlins suspensions, termis etc. rumored price around 16k euros Just wait until next Tuesday Ducati will officaly release its details.

However some teasing pics are here

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/ducati-monster-eicma-twitter-teaser/

New Monster will be shown at the EICMA starting at Nov 7. By nxt week we should have the technical info and pics.

http://www.eicma.it/en/

---they might even show the new Scrambler

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/ducati-scrambler-2015/?+Rubber%29

Attack the checkpoints with what, Rocks, fireworks? So you accept abhisits remarks as quite normal , in fact, the simple truth?

Why did they set up the live firing zones at Ratchaprapop? What strategic reason? To starve out the main rally stage that's why. It was a lethal variation of the UK Polices "bottling" tactics prior to the major assault on the stage area.

Read this to see how "the military never took aggressive action". I cannot believe you swallow abhisits BS so readily.

http://www.businessinsider.com/thailand-red-shirt-protest-din-daeng-violence-2010-5

It's not about swallowing what Abhisit said. It's about what happened.

In the Ratchapraprop area there was plenty of evidence of armed protesters firing at the army, even from a journalist that regularly posts on this site. That's why they set up a live firing zone there, and it's the only place they set up a live firing zone.

In other areas, which weren't live firing zones, the protesters did go out from their petrol soaked barricades to attack the army with sling shots (which can be deadly), rockets and stones.

The troops didn't attack the protesters. The protesters came out to attack them.

Correct!

And as we all know, if the police would have done their job, things would not have gotten out of hand. For some reason, the police were not very interested to provide law and order. It almost felt as if they were hoping for a confrontation between army and protestors.

If somebody was to blame for the mess, it should be the Thai Police. And then we have the big question: who controls the Thai Police........

(pssstt I remember Thaksin saying to Aljazeera that the army had killed many people when at that stage nobody had been killed yet because the first days they only used blanks. If somebody is interested in that interview I will look it up)

We are talking about the actions of the OAG. DSI claimed Red shirts and MIB killed many people (and have forwarded the information to the OAG in 2010) and (today) the OAG basically says that those people don't exist.

So all very normal according to you?

What the DSI has claimed in 2010 has maybe raised your expectations. The only thing that was truthful that came out in the period after the crackdown were the leaked preliminary DSI investigation results. The problem lies in the making of the DSI. It was intended to be independent, but ended up being a tool of whoever is in government. Before the elections the upper echelons were a tool of the then government, and now of this government.

In the end though - it is the criminal court which will make the decisions. So, far, having followed several cases quite closely, i found the judgements surprisingly fair and evidence based - and not politically motivated.

But if you go back to the period of 2010 and following, and read some of my posts, where i had to argue to the teeth with some of you about soldiers having shot unarmed protesters - you can also see that i have spoken about particular cases which were judged the way how i described these incidents then.

In case the revised amnesty is not rejected, and the cases against Suthep and Abhisit will go to trial, you can be sure that their legal team will present their evidence. If you feel that the OAG misrepresents the evidence regarding the MIB, you can be sure that the Democrat's legal team will present whatever evidence they have regarding this issue.

It must be a bit stronger though than what the soldiers and members of the Democrat Party who have testified so far have shown. What they presented at court was a mixture of piss poor excuses and outright lies - which in some cases judges have pointed out as well, albeit in a slightly more polite language.

And before i am again accused of being a Thaksin lackey - i am very much against the revised amnesty bill. I believe that amnesty for leaders, soldiers and politicians of all sides should come after the completion of the judicial process. I do not wish to see anyone in prison as it won't make the dead alive again, but i wish that as many facts of what took place should be presented to the public.

Thanks, we are getting somewhere...step by step

What the DSI has claimed in 2010 has maybe raised your expectations. The only thing that was truthful that came out in the period after the crackdown were the leaked preliminary DSI investigation results. The problem lies in the making of the DSI. It was intended to be independent, but ended up being a tool of whoever is in government. Before the elections the upper echelons were a tool of the then government, and now of this government.

Are you saying that the DSI has (could have) made up the existence of Red shirts and MIB (who have killed security forces?). If your answer is yes, then please explain who killed those people mentioned in my earlier post (as was reported by the DSI in Nov 2010). Forget about all the Youtube videos etc. I would like to know your opinion because you have been following these events very closely.

I know you said you are no legal expert but could it be that the DSI have also filed charges against Abhisit and Suthep because of pressure from Thaksin/PT? Could it be that the OAG has accepted the case because it is under pressure from Thaksin/PT?

(next would be the legal aspect of the premeditated murder charge)