Nickymaster

(January), April and May, 2010 were very dangerous months indeed, ALSO for the security forces and the general public.

Let's highlight some events building up to the terrible crackdown on May 15, 2010:

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

- the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

- the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers (see Thairath).

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers and their families;

As you stated correctly Mr. Tlansford:

"BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone".

Unfortunately she is not alone!

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

first death - a protester. 30 minutes before the MiB were spotted. Killed by an unknown sniper. Not the military.

the ISA was invoked before the first protester arrived, and the SOE 3 days before Apr 10th and the disastrous dispersal attempt. The use of lethal force had also already been approved. Was that necessary? Was it smart to put the army in full control when they so clearly botched the dispersal April 10th? I don't.

Play with fire, you and kireb are both pretty callous regarding the deaths of people.

But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?

"But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?"

History? Are you serious? The protestors were there because of Thaksin's revenge for the coup. Thaksin was trying to copy Hun Sen and Thailand was not ready for that. If you promote democracy, you should condemn corruption. But you don’t. For you Thaksin is still THE MAN.

Problem with you, Thaksin and all the reds is that you support democracy AND corruption.

...and you are pretty callous regarding the deaths security forces.

ps. Still waiting on those reports showing that the Thai Police did a good job providing law and order during the Red occupation of downtown Bangkok.

Cut part of post............

it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

It wasn't a tennis match and neither was a score board available with a casualty tally! Reds attacked civilians and security personnel during their siege and the military had no other choice eventually than to clear the city. Maybe you missed the big picture? Let me explain it to you: the sovereign state of Thailand was under attack by red morons fighting for their perception of democracy (money hand outs and gangsters running the show).

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

No it is not a tennis match - what a callous way to dismiss the people killed and injured by the army. But if you somehow think that a ratio of around 8-1 of fatalities indicates that the poor army was being terrorized by protesters, then you should ... well nevermind - whatever.

8-1? You mean 7-2.

70 protestors and 20 officials. The first 10 people killed were officials.

An incredible ratio. Unheard of in any modern democracy.

And how about bringing to justice those behind the death of 78 Thai Muslims in Tak Bai in 2004 and the victims of Thaksin's war on drugs also in 2004.

They are next.

Wh weren't any of our TV members appointed any positions as I'm sure they could clean up the entire Government Situation over night.

I think they are doing the best with what they have to work with and "change is good" is better then sitting stagnant.

It doesn't matter if you are pro-red or pro-yellow or pro-watermellon, you have to accept what Thailand does with their Government or move on.

Thaivisa.com = Thailand forum - Asias biggest community forums for expats doing business, living in, working in and traveling to Thailand.

It is not that strange that there are many foreigners (WITH AN OPINION) on this forum.

Very interesting. The deadlock might be broken soon.

I agree with you HD.. a water canon works wonders at crowd control, until some one tries to shoot the guy operating the canon. then all bets are off. An adequate police force would also help. not some yahoo's that bought their gun and badge from their local pooyai. You and I have been here long enough to know that Thai's have a whole different outlook on life, politics, religion, etc and etc. I've said before, Thailand reminds me of Mexico back in the 60's and 70's. Mexico has evolved, kind of. Thailand, not so much. I get a little tired of hearing "you farangs just don't understand Thailand". Yes we do. Most of us have seen this kind of nonsense in other developing countries. When we throw in our two cents worth, it's because we've been there, done that, seen that and have the t-shirt.

"I agree with you HD.. a water canon works wonders at crowd control, until some one tries to shoot the guy operating the canon. "

Then why was the first death a protester?

I think the TVF timeline for the fatalities, which usually begin lobbing grenades and the death of the colonel, need to be updated.

But your timeline won't include the red's terrorist RPG attack on the Emerald Buddha on March 30, will it? Or the M-79 grenade launchings around the city which had a similarly high potential for fatalities.

And you will ignore that the first protester death was caused by "persons unknown".

I really don't want to post this list anymore but Mr. Tlansford always forces me to do it.

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

-the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

-the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers.

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers

Please update us with your timeline Mr. Tlansford.

"I believe all the governments are aware of this problem but nobody is serious about tackling it."

He's overlooking the seriousness the current government has taken on the issue.

Yingluck launches anti-corruption campaign

Posted 2012-05-19

http://www.thaivisa....ption-campaign/

Which one of them doesn't have a corruption case "pending"?

A nice post, however, having a determination to follow in the path of Cambodia is exactly what we don't want and exactly what her brother does want. A dynastic republic with one political party and as many as possible kept poor and uneducated.

Spot on!

The men in black appeared to be intially involved to 'protect' the protestors, there is photographic evidence of such activity by unarmed 'men in black'

I guess they were also there as a deterent to the RTA turning up and dispersing the peaceful protest camp. It would appear that the RTA and Abhisit were not deterred and turned up surrouding the camp......thus escalating the violence

It seems to me that you are the first person to point out the most likely role of the now infamous MiB which would have been to protect the protesters.

Anyone familiar with Thai history would know what tends to happen when protesters "meet" with the army. It's not pretty and not always because the army are the ruthless blood-hungry killers some people like to portray them as, but because they are simply not that well trained, prepared or equiped. So if within the red camp, it was protection at the top of their minds, why not simply tell the people to go home? Wouldn't that have done a better job of protecting than the men in black?

Yes i appreciate they felt they had a reasonable grievance - i agree they did - but it wasn't like the country had been taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship, and it wasn't like the government hadn't already compromised massively.

So no, i don't agree this was about protecting people. This was about adding to the confusion, mayhem and violence... all ingredients usually essentially required with which to force a government to stand down.

Stop wasting your time Rixalex.

They don't want to know the truth. For them everything leading up to the crackdown is not important.

Their small brains can only handle simple information such as: Abhisit killed the peaceful protestors..

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

-the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

-the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers.

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers.

And then they dare to claim that the RTA escalated the violence.

The men in black appeared to be intially involved to 'protect' the protestors, there is photographic evidence of such activity by unarmed 'men in black'

I guess they were also there as a deterent to the RTA turning up and dispersing the peaceful protest camp. It would appear that the RTA and Abhisit were not deterred and turned up surrouding the camp......thus escalating the violence

peaceful protest camp

The men in black appeared to be intially involved to 'protect' the protestors, there is photographic evidence of such activity by unarmed 'men in black'

I guess they were also there as a deterent to the RTA turning up and dispersing the peaceful protest camp. It would appear that the RTA and Abhisit were not deterred and turned up surrouding the camp......thus escalating the violence

It seems to me that you are the first person to point out the most likely role of the now infamous MiB which would have been to protect the protesters.

Protecting the protestors by hiding among them and shooting at the officials. That kind of protecting?

When (date) did the army start surrounding the camp?

RT @tulsathit: Khao Sod: Seh Daeng's tearful daughter: They blame my dad

RT @tulsathit: Thai Post: Red shirts tear apart Truth panel's report

RT @tulsathit: ASTV: Shrieking red shirts find truth commission's report unacceptable

RT @tulsathit: Matichon: Seh Daeng's daughter slams TRCT for making dad take blame

RT @tulsathit: Thai Rath: Pheu Thai, red shirts join hands in attacking truth panel

RT @tulsathit: Thai Post: Red shirts tear apart Truth panel's report

Don't think that such an action would help Thaksin, and Thaksin knows that.

But hey, you have created a monster when you needed one, now try to tame it.

Good to see the Prime Minister taking the initiative and acting in a parliamentary manner.

It is practical, courteous and intelligent of her to give table to and pay heed to the opposition on this subject, in a non partisan way.

Shame it took the opposition leader 'cornering her' before she did this though...

IMO it was Abhisit who was "cornered".

He was invited but tried to avoid the meeting by "requesting" that Ms Yingluck will be present too. She was happy to oblige, it was probably her intention to attend anyway.

Now he is part of the process, "they (Democrats and Abhisit )claimed they knew better about the problems in the predominantly Muslim region". It won't be so easy for him to criticize the position of the government in the south.

One more time the poor Abhisit has been out smarted by the Shinawatras

Atleast 1 time the Shinawatras couldn't avoid listening to the helpfull advice of AV.

Sure Yingluck whould have prefered to go for a photo op or a nice lunch with a real estate developer.

Good to see the Prime Minister taking the initiative and acting in a parliamentary manner.

It is practical, courteous and intelligent of her to give table to and pay heed to the opposition on this subject, in a non partisan way.

She should have taken AV's advice earlier and on other subjects too! That would have made her VERY courteous and intelligent.

Remember, it is not AV avoiding her; it's Yinluck avoiding everybody in parliament and instead prefers to call her brother for advice.

They know how to hack, now they should learn how to speak English properly.

Exactly. That's why they are asking for proper education.

The 15th of May, when this event occurred, was after the shooting of the general and the beginning of the military crackdown on the protesters which was to go on for another 4 days.

You'll notice that there is a difference in descriptions of the events between the reports - The AFP quotes the judge as saying :

""He was killed by gunfire from weapons of military personnel who fired at a van which drove into a restricted area," said judge Jitakorn Patanasiri"

And The Nation paraphrases the court for us saying :

"The court ruled that troops who were carrying out the operation fired at a van driven by Samorn Maithong when it was trying to break through the security checkpoint of troops in the Rajprasong."

Now for me, driving into a restricted area and trying to break through a security checkpoint create vastly different images in my mind. But as the AFP points out,

"The court acknowledged that there had been conflicts between the testimony of civilian and army witnesses to the event."

so I am not surprised that the reporting of the pro-Abhisit media outlet, The Nation, might create one image for it's readers whereas a normal news source without a Thai agenda might create another. I am not drawing conclusions regarding the actual events from either, but I don't blinding accept a rather vivid image of a van bursting through an orderly army checkpoint and the military then opening fire.

As it happens, there is another eyewitness report, extremely vivid, documented, and easily available which is from the very same day and it does provide a full context of the situation for the reader. It shows the chaos that day and describes in detail a series of events, how they began, progressed, and ended specific details.

This is from the same day and the same area as the OP. There are no men in black, no police in this. Just some protesters, some reporter, other civilians, and the army.

I think people who read this account will understand just how dangerous it was on that day - not only for the "regular" protesters, but certainly for anyone who happened to find themselves close to the military operations on that day - like the van, like the gentleman who was shot and killed in the OP.

BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone.

Here is the article from Nick Nostitz, who was in the middle of it all on the 15th -

http://asiapacific.a...e-killing-zone/

(January), April and May, 2010 were very dangerous months indeed, ALSO for the security forces and the general public.

Let's highlight some events building up to the terrible crackdown on May 15, 2010:

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

- the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

- the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers (see Thairath).

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers and their families;

As you stated correctly Mr. Tlansford:

"BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone".

Unfortunately she is not alone!

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

Let's keep it simple, because you are not grasping the point of the argument. Did the police maintain Law and Order (as it's their job) during the Red Shirt protests, yes or no?

let's keep it simple - did the military shoot and kill the man or did they not?

Funny, that's neither Yes or No regarding the question.

Anyway, done here, obviously you are beyond arguments.

By the by, yes, the Army shot the man to which the OP refers to. See? it's so easy to answer questions honestly.

you're right.

And honestly, the army was completely and fully charged with security in the SOE.

See? It's so easy to answer questions honestly.

The whole police issue is just a diversion you see. The police are not responsible for the army and the army are not responsible for the police.

Did the army kill the man in the OP? Yes.

What did the police have to do with that? Nothing.

OMG. You are really not a fair person. Gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier on but.....

The police were not doing a good job - I don't think I have to qualify this. The Thai police force are notorious for not doing their job anyway.

But they were not responsible for the army shooting at people. That fault lies with the militant wing of the red shirts whose actions directly led to the army shooting at people. Whoever decided on their introduction to the protest was primarily responsible for any deaths in my idealistic opinion (which is why Thaksin categorically denies any involvement in the protest) but, in practice, in each case one might also lay fault with those that trained the soldiers, those that deployed them, those that gave the instruction on their deployment and of course the soldiers who shot people.

I opine that the army was justified to shoot people in some cases (the case of Khun Phan here being one, tragic though it may have been), and justifiable given the circumstances but not justified in others, but I'm not a judge. All this is obviously more relevant to the civilians that died than it is to security forces that died.

The government was justified to deploy the army in both 2009 and 2010 in my honest opinion, due to the ascending levels of violence from the protest movement - which is greatly unfair to the tens of thousands of non-violent protesters. Unfortunately this move was exactly what the protest leaders wanted (best example that springs to my mind - the army operation on 10 April was a direct result of Kwanchai's attack on the 1st Infantry barracks that afternoon, and that was before the army went anywhere near the protest).

If Thida was sincere in her chairperson-ship of the UDD and her support of the grass-roots movement, she would be going after her hubby and his pals in court, particularly Nattawut, Arisaman and Jatuporn. I think this best reflects the hypocrisy of the setup.

Bravo!.

Are you Thai? (no need to answer if you don't want)

Moruya again, you accuse me of using hyperbole in my comment about the government of the day using snipers.

The OED definition is below.

noun

[mass noun]

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally:

Sadly for you I intended to be taken quite literally.

The RTA used snipers, period.

Sorry, it's not hyperbole.

What a level.

The protestors were violent period.

Moruya you posted

"What are the statistics for head shots?

More hyperbole from you."

My response is.....

Give in, you tell me, what are the statistics for head shots ??

Are you denying that it happened ??

Are you saying that there were no snipers / marksmen / sharpshooters taking out unarmed Thai citizens on the street ?

If you accept that there were, on whose orders might they be acting ??

Their officers, perhaps ?

And what branch of government is supposed to issue the directions to the army command to act in accordance with government intentions and requirements ??

Couldn't be the Prime Ministers office, could it ??

Unlikely to be the BOI.

Have you read post #127?

In most civilized countries, crowd control is in the hands of police and riot police. Thailand, unfortunately, is not a very civilized country and law and order here is nearly non-existent. The government biggest mistake in 2010 is that the fact that they let this red menace grow and becoming worse and more aggressive by the day. And the red spin masters took full advantage of that.

yes, 2010 was all the fault of the protesters.

Bingo - should have seen that before.

Please don't go to that level. You are smarter than that.

yes, but this forum is not.

The protesters made a lot of mistakes and they have the blame for that which they did. The army has their own responsibilities. The police as well - but they weren't the ones out shooting the protesters, were they? The other argument is just as boring as it is stupid.

When a poster like KireB implies that the entire thing is the fault of the protesters - as he did above - then a healthy dose of sarcasm is merited.

After reading my post #127 you might agree that the protestors indeed did terrible things. Not many countries in the world would have tollerated that for 6 weeks before taking action. Have the red shirt leaders ever shown any remorse?

Be fair man.

I said that I did not find any information to support the claim that the police did not do their job before the SOE was declared.

Not a single poster has come forward with any report showing that to be false. A lot of huffing and puffing, but nothing more.

From that you state that some posters claim the police did a good job and they blame the army - sorry, but that is absurd logic and not what I am saying.

I personally feel the army is responsible for that which the army did. That is not so hard to understand, is it.

Protesters sealing off the city center with barricades for weeks, protesters breaking into parliament, daily bombings throughout the city, etc, etc... is this your idea of a job well done by the police?

The mind boggles.

Edit to add, is that what you consider the protesters being " became the least bit difficult."?

More boggling.

You seem incapable of understanding that Police upholding Law and Order = No need to have the army on the streets, therefore no street battles with "difficult" protesters.

Again - that same argument that the police are responsible for the military shooting and killing people is absurd.

You seem incapable to read the news from that time and recall that Abhisit had already invoked the ISA in March and had the military deployed throughout the city, protest sites, and government buildings from the very beginning of the demonstrations, much less the further step of calling an SOE in April.

I do not understand the TVF obsession with making the police the scapegoat for the military killing people.

Providing law and order IS the duty of the police. It's not my fault. Those are the rules.

in my opinion, before the protests even began, it would have been simple for most observers to realize that Abhisit would use the army if the protests became the least bit difficult.

The move to Ratchaprasong - being a permanent encampment for the protests - was maybe the thing that tripped the trigger.

I believe the declaration of the SOE does not have anything to do with the performance of the Thai police which is the actual argument that I was countering.

Remember, we're talking about May 15th in the article. The SOE had been in effect well over a month. The argument that the army's actions on that day are somehow the fault of the police not doing their job is - in my opinion - just nonsense.

To speculate that Abhisit would not have used the army in 2010 when he had already done so the year before does not seem like a reasonable, thoughtful conclusion either.

So I would say that the argument of "if the BIBs had done their jobs, then the army would not have shot the innocent man in the OP" is not applicable.

In most civilized countries, crowd control is in the hands of police and riot police. Thailand, unfortunately, is not a very civilized country and law and order here is nearly non-existent. The government biggest mistake in 2010 is that the fact that they let this red menace grow and becoming worse and more aggressive by the day. And the red spin masters took full advantage of that.

yes, 2010 was all the fault of the protesters.

Bingo - should have seen that before.

Please don't go to that level. You are smarter than that.

Philw. I see you still sniping away with your one liners, without ever letting people know what you would have done to get these people off the streets. People who were paralysing the city, people who invaded a hospital, people who eventually, after being let down by their leaders, set fire to the Mall they said they were occupying. People who had listened to their leaders talking up petrol bombs. People who were infiltrated by organised para military gangs. People who were told time and time again that their gathering was illegal. People who expressed a wish for early elections, which were granted, only for their so called leaders to turn down that concession. If they had gone home when their demands were met, there woud have been very few deaths. I asked you twice on another thread what you would have done to bring it to a peaceful conclusion, you didn't answer. I think you don't have any answer, you just troll these riot threads and get your kicks out of peopes outrage. A veritable keyboard warrior if ever there was one

AV should have stepped down with his tail between his legs as soon as he realised the outrage at his and others' actions of perverting democracy. The protests were more than justified in response to the blatant act of stealing the electorate's mandate.

AV used the military to get power and then, once the people couldn't stand to have his lying, deceitful backside wrongly in the PM's seat, he used them again to shoot the people.

It is obvious where the blame lies.

Abhisit was upholding democracy under the laws of Thailand.

The reds were attempting a violent coup.

Abhisit was upholding democracy by shooting unarmed dissenters in the head.

Sure, way to go.

Take a deep breath, control yourself and read post # nr 127