MikeyIdea

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:14 AM, Kenny202 said:

Ridiculously they consider a child 7yo old enough to point at the dad and confirm the father

Think of it, the law is common sense. IMO, Thai juvenile and marriage laws (and in Buddhist countries in general) are much more common sense than Western interpretations of common sense

The law is there to protect the child: The mother confirms dad and the child simply confirms if he likes him or not. Because if he doesn't, something whatever that is, require further confirmation is required => go to court. Court does not see its responsibility only as confirm and legitimize. Sure they do legitimize in 100% of the cases but they also confirm if there is more they need to do.

The question: Why don't you marry the mother that they always ask is not there to help a Thai ripping of another western man... The other questions they ask, met by the western thinking: Why don't you get on and do your job instead. Sigh, it is all there to determine if they, in the best interest of the child, need to do more

Marriage: Marry in Christian countries and traditionally... (Thank God Christians finally realise how ridiculous that was so it is changing now) also assets from before bride and bridegroom even met was shared by default

American justice: Divorce and man had to pay alimony to ex wife for the rest of her life

Adultery: Mother commit adultery and her moral was so low that the best for the childs future was that father by law got sole custody when divorce was processed - changed now

Custody: Mother and father divorce and mother was always highly favoured

One Thai Juvenile court judge I talked to laughed openly when we talked about this. 

I don't know Kenny, I have studied Thai Juvenile law and I find it much more common sense than Western interpretation. Western interpretation is changing toward where Thai (Asian Buddhist) interpretation has been a long time

7 hours ago, SpudIslander said:

I have a 8 year old son with a Thai lady. She is a great mother but terrible with finances. I have bought motorcycles and cars for her over the years and she shortly goes out and borrows money against them privately at extremely unfavourable interest rates. Then she can't repay the debt and either I pay for the debt or she loses the asset. Our son has my name on his Thai birth certificate. I have the DNA certificate as a match as father and son. He has a Canadian citizenship and Canadian Passport although he has never been to Canada. I have 2 questions:

1. In the case of real estate property in Thailand, can I buy a property in Thailand under his name in trust and situate it so that it cannot be borrowed upon nor sold until he reaches 25 years of age?

2. From what I have read above, is it as simple as my son, his mother, myself and all the documents I have mentioned show up to the Amphur and they will grant or recognize me as being the father?  

A few things - Birth certificate has no legal meaning in Thailand. Court legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother oppose that you get shared custody, Amphur legitimization Scenario: DNA will only be necessary if mother or child oppose that you get shared custody, foreign citizenships and custody in other countries are irrelevant in your case

Land in childs name

1) You can by law buy property directly in the childs name as long as there is no debt on it (cannot give responsibility to child).

2) Trusts are not valid but you don't need one.

3) Land owned by a child cannot be borrowed on legally (the debt cannot be registered at the back of the land title deed). The golden rule is that it's easy to give to a minor but only a court decision can take away again

4) Borrow money with land as security is common also without registering it (the lender demands to keep the original title deed). That is also illegal if land owner is a minor

5) Make sure that both you and mother sign original buy / sell agreement at the amphur

6) Keep the land title deed and the original buy / sell agreement in a safe place where the mother cannot get to it

7) Age of majority is 20 in Thailand. I see no way to write any agreement when child is a minor which locks his assets until after majority (to yes, after..)

8) A few land offices refuse to make the transfer (I have heard Hua Hin and Chiang Mai), the vast majority do though

9) If land office refuses, then mummy and you can go to Juvenile Court and get a court order (by mutual agreement) that

a) mother and father agree to give land to the child 

b) mother shall transfer to child within xx date.

I really doubt a land office still would refuse. They know that court order can be enforced 

10) If land office still refuses: Back to court and 2 options
a) Request asset locked down based on (imminent) risk mummy would mortgage it. Juvenile can order but they will normally not do it only based on history evidence. Need (imminent) risk
b)  This path is easy: There is a court order (by mutual agreement) that mother shall transfer asset to child by xx date. She couldn't do it so back to Juvenile court to confirm enforcement within 1 year of stated transfer date. Then petition central Juvenile court to enforce -> assets are easy to enforce because there is no doubt it's good for the child. Gromm Bangkapp Kadii - don't know what that translates to, Department of court order enforcement??? They'll get the transfer done unless there is a debt registered at the back of the land title deed

Amphur legitimization of an 8 year old

2) Yes, it is that easy. Well, you'll have to pay a hundred baht or so and it will take a few hours

Michael

Yes, western inherited land stays in the deceased name until sold.

What about 30 year lease agreements? A westerner can have a 30 year lease on land and that is registered at the back of the Chanote. So it should be possible for a westerner to temporarily be registered there for that case

A lender is also at the back of a chanote temporarily and it's not as owner. I suppose not because we should have heard of it but anyone know for sure?  I suppose most land offices would refuse regardless of it actually was legal... :) 

Difficult. Best I could come up with in Thailand was;

Land in my daughters name, cannot be sold until she reaches majority except by court order, not married so my daughter inherits me. Funny story about the provident fund. I wanted my daughter as beneficiary and the company wouldn't do it in the beginning because they knew it would be difficult for the mother to get to use it. Yes, that's exactly what I want and they finally accepted my signature and registered her as beneficiary a couple of meetings later

Juvenile court will put my daughters assets under don't know the right name, Childrens welfare department something, and it will be portioned out. Problem is I don't trust them and the mother is the only legal guardian left so she will be the one receiving the payments. How much can she influence Childrens welfare department? I have a will drawn up by a Thai lawyer stating exactly how money should be portioned out until child reaches majority. One part also states that guardian for the assets and guardian of the child cannot be the same person 

I trust land in my daughters name, I don't trust the will, I don't trust the Childrens welfare department. But what is a safer way In Thailand?

17 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I am also assuming that the daughter/child is of a legal age, if Thailand has one, as I believe in most western countries the daughter or child would have to be of legal age. i.e. 16 and in some instances 18 unless it is done through a trust.

No, a child can be of any age in Thailand but there must be no debt, can't give a liability to a child

 I bought land for my daughter at the land office in Huaykwang Bangkok when she was 2 years old. The Chanote, N.S.4 is in her name only, she couldn't sign of course so they took her thumb prints. All legal guardians must sign the purchase agreement

17 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

We know a farang cannot own land, condo, villa, ok.

There are circumstances where a farang can own land for a limited period of time. He can legally inherit land, must be sold within one year though. I don't know if laws concerning gifts have any applicable clauses that invalidate a formal written gift because the receiver legally can't own it. If not, then that can be done too and must be sold within one year

 -- Sorry I meant to say house and or land at the land office

I suppose that is a clarification regarding that land and house actually doesn't have to have the same owner at all, it normally has but that is it.

My ex wife leased land in Huaykwang 1992 but bought the house. I paid for it all so she left it to me when she divorced and I stayed there, got a second wife and we had a daughter. Lease ran out and I was asked if we wanted to buy the land. Sure I did so I paid and the land was transferred to my daughters name. Buy sell agreement for the land clearly state land only. Owner of the house (Gammasitt baan) at the Amphur clearly state my ex wife as owner

But now a question I do not know the answer to: If a Thai needs to borrow money and he uses his land as security, then it is registered at the back of the Chanote. Seller / lendee is to the left and buyer / lender is to the right. The owner who borrow money is moved from the right to the left and the lender is moved in to the right. If money is not paid back within stipulated time, then lender simply becomes the owner. Can a Thai borrow money from a farang and it's registered at the back of the Chanote? Anyone knows?

Good sample below

Column 1 Date, Column 2, Reason for transfer, Column 3 Seller, Column 4 buyer

 The Chanote below starts with give, then owner borrow, then owner clear debt, then owner borrow, then LENDER sells :) Ah, the guy who borrowed money the last time couldn't pay... 

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I can't believe that you actually know any bargirls in Thailand. Saying they are paid to be nice is ignorant of reality.

Many bargirls I have known were not nice, but some were indeed the nicest women I ever knew.

And one I know is even the best mother I have ever known, not the mother of my daughter unfortunately

27 minutes ago, JusticeFT96 said:

Sorry yes, I was planning to move to Thailand once divorce and custody was resolved never before that.

 

Is she able to get a divorce without me there? I would need to go and sign for it wouldn't I?

Yes, she can divorce you without you in Thailand but

1) It will have to be in court

2) Divorce can only be granted citing legally allowed reasons, the normal one is abandonment more than 3 years, another one is desertion more than one year but that's hardly going to work in your case

3) Court must specify custody => You are taking a big risk

There is no reason why court shouldn't give the mother sole custody if she says that the child is in England and you refuse to bring him here. That would be the standard response

Second option is you coming to Thailand to sign the divorce. Note that you two must still cite one of the legal reasons or it will be refused. Custody must still be specified and both court and amphur will inform the mother of the consequences of sole custody and ask if that is really what she wants. Again: => You are taking a big risk

You should clear this in England. There is a Thai saying that matches this scenario perfectly

It's difficult to lose a little but easy to lose a lot. It is likely to be much cheaper in England in the long run

Section 1516. Grounds of action for divorce are as follows:

10 hours ago, ThaiWai said:

I can remember at least to 2 stories in the past year where parents put ropes around there kids neck or hung them outright in this country to punish the other parent.  If he thinks the story ends after the divorce and custody is final he is kidding himself.

Agree, some stories don't end. Carrying a copy of a Thai court order showing sole custody to the farang parent will ensure the support of authorities if the Thai parent commits criminal offences. A UK court order, translated or not, is best used as toilet paper of course

10 hours ago, KBsinter said:

You sound very gullible,if you think having custody issued by a  UK  court and return to 

Thailand with him, think hard you will probably lose him,be careful the justice system

here is not as Europe.................do not trust her, or the system.....good luck. 

A UK court will follow a pre-dated Thai Family and Juvenile court order, a Thai court will do the same

The UK court order must be registered in Thailand before it is valid here = must go through the court process here too = common sense 

A Thai court and Thai police will of course follow Thai law = the mother has shared custody and the right to veto the child leaving Thailand until a Thai court orders according to the pre-dated UK court order. Also common sense

-- think hard you will probably lose him,be careful the justice system

here is not as Europe.................

True, unlike Europe, there is no bias against fathers or foreigners here. Thai courts take custody decisions in the best interest of the child, unlike European courts where the mother by Christian belief is favoured - This does not have to mean that the child can leave Thailand

Just follow the process and you are safe, don't and you shouldn't be safe

11 hours ago, JusticeFT96 said:

Thanks, I think I will try and just get the divorce out of her first then pursue the custody option through the proper channels to make sure that is water tight. 

That cannot be done in Thailand. Custody arrangement must be confirmed when divorce here. Perhaps it can in England, I don't know

Someone suggested let her do the divorce: That can only work to the benefit of the mother. She can apply for divorce in Thailand, it will not be mutual so it will have to be in court (abandonment 3 years). Court must confirm custody and if child is in England and father is not present, guess what, they order sole custody to the mother.

If that court order pre-dates what the father has (in England) and mother pursues it (there are several organisations that offer free help for this kind of case), authorities will put the child on a plane to Thailand. Big no-no

12 hours ago, Chpied said:

I had a an agreement the ex with the children signed dated, it meant nothing in the end, they do take it into consideration, but any good solicitor will get around that.
I wish it was that easy for you just to pay for her to disappear, but your crazy if you go down that track with sound legal advice.
 

Juvenile law is about the best for the child so ANY agreement, court or outside, is re-evaluated according to current circumstances.  

-- I wish it was that easy for you just to pay for her to disappear, but your crazy if you go down that track with sound legal advice.

Another good comment, yes, must go to court. It needs to be done in England as it is the habitual residence of the child 

12 hours ago, Chpied said:

Also don't talk bad to your son about his mum, if it does go to court and it gets nasty, they have specialist that extract this information from children, my sister went through a real shitty divorce, it opened my eyes right up

That is a good comment. There is even statistics supporting that children who couldn't have both their parents gets closer to the parent they weren't allowed to have, if they were fed what they themselves saw was incorrect information when they finally got contact.  

This is what the Thai's so well call somm nann naa

2 minutes ago, pumpjack said:

short ?

 

i got a headache after the 2nd paragraph which i just barely got through.

 

1. give her no money !!

2. you do not need a " good " lawyer,  all you need is any lawyer to file to court in uk that you request divorce, after approx 6 months  if she does not reply to the divorce then the courts in uk will grant you it.    ( i remember reading this a few years ago after my own issues with wife ) 

 

That doesn't solve the custody issue though, she will still continue to have shared custody of he child

Quite a few turns here so hope I got it right. Please confirm

1) The child and you are currently in England

2) The child has spent so much time in England that that there is no doubt England is his habitual residence

3) You have shared custody in both England and Thailand (married in Thailand and formally registered in the UK)

If this is the case: You are in a very good position and, you wouldn't have to buy your childs right to stay in England. You need to go to court in England and get an order that child is not allowed to leave its habitual residence England because the mother threatens to take him away and never let you see him again, it can include divorce or you can do that later, perhaps better later actually

Then comes the curse of having children with someone from another country. The western guy who has a child with a Thai national in Thailand and it doesn't work out can go back to Europe without the child or stay in Thailand, up to him. Your wife/ex wife can do the same, up to her. The child stays where its habitual residence is, full stop - or will be returned there. Habitual residence and pre-dated court order rules. No need for pay-offs

This is a true story: A British guy took his son from Thailand, went back to England against the mothers wishes some 10+? years ago (should be over 10 years ago by now). Thai courts ordered sole custody to the mother and British courts of course promptly ordered sole custody to the Thai mother in England following the Thai court order and put the child on a plane back to Thailand. I heard of this when the father was in the Supreme Court of Thailand requesting access to his son and the mother refused and the court of course did nothing to help. He had been in Thai courts for 5-6 years then, he is probably still there or perhaps the child has reached the middle teenage years and court told the mother - OK you can give him access now. The same would happen if the Thai mother takes the child from England

By the way: Don't care about unfaithful or not. It has nothing to do with custody of the child. The unfaithful parent who cheated on his/her spouse can still be better for the child and that is what matters in a custody issues

You don't need blackmail charges. Women tend to be more revengeful than men so beware. I would start the court proceedings I recommended and still keep contact but not tell her anything yet. Send her a bit of money if you can afford it. After all, she is the mother and she loves her child too, just like you do. Civilised goes two way. I'd even help her to come to England to see her child occasionally later when the child is safe in England

I think divorce is secondary, you should secure the child first.

Thailand has good free legal advice, does England have the same? Or you can try to get some free legal advice from non-profit organisations like Care before you hire a lawyer 

Good Luck

Michael

13 hours ago, benalibina said:

Is not my experience as per your last paragraph. He contacted me based on other topic so I wrote email to Mrs Larry.....nothing she could do. Shallow people.

I have followed HappyLarry's wife and the lawyer she works with in 2 cases now. They are using bold moves and are not yes sayers. This means that if anyone is shallow in this discussion as you accuse them of being, it isn't them 

Answer back - And all I wanted was to to talk to you about how we together should do to best take care of our children

Set her up - Gather evidence for minimum 6 months, wear more than one hidden camera, try to make her hit you by saying legal things that you know will make her lose control, say nothing but make police reports with supporting evidence from doctors every time. Just pick a police station where you saw the kids (regardless of it is was the last time), get them to make missing persons reports for them and send formal summons to the mothers registered address (which she will ignore but still good as evidence), do it numerous times to make her angry. Nicely make her angry, then more angry, then make her stab you but control it so that you don't die, sue her for attempted manslaughter with the video camera as evidence (non compoundable offence)

Then Juvenile court and just refuse mutual agreement and just let them order unless you get more than 50% of the time with the kids and max 4,000 per kid and month. The appeals court is likely to take up a case with multiple documented assaults so don't worry about letting Juvenile order

* Set * her * up * Play * on * her * weaknesses * be * cool * then * attack * 

PS

I am impressed with what I hear from the lawyer that HappyLarry's wife works with. He has the mindset to help out with the planning stage so to speak. And happy with what I hear of Mrs. Larry too of course 

DS 

2 hours ago, cooked said:

Using a different method from that preferred (or understood) by the teacher can result in an "issue". Happened to me back home when I applied advanced maths solutions to basic problems when I did a year with apprentices in order to get a necessary qualification. The teacher actually got quite annoyed with me.

Yes, that definitely apply to Thai school teachers, good comment.

Kids also really do get confused when parents tell the pupils to work problems in a different way from how their teachers explain. That happened to me and my daughter many times, I see everything I teach in maths long term and teach understanding and specifically point out the few areas where I want her to memorise something. Thai teachers tell pupils to memorise maths problem solving steps more often.  

My half-Thai daughter went to a bilingual school in Bangkok until last year and she had mostly A grades on the English subject exams and mostly D's and F's on the Thai subject exams - both covering the same thing...

It was not so much that teaching methods as such differ (although they do differ), it was more

- that as a child, she likes what is easy and dislikes what is difficult

- teacher style is very different

Thai style you sit and get fed more, you respect the teacher and do not question of course, western style is more relaxed and open, more discussion, more clear

Reading comprehension is important to be able to do perform in Thai mathematics. I used to read and do Thai mathematics with my daughter until mid grade 6 and I was surprised how much reading there was. It is not "look at the samples and then you can figure out what should be done and you can do the next 10-20 samples", not at all. There are quite a lot of -> read, figure out what they mean, then do the mathematics and answer. Quite a few of these questions are not very clear and some are quite silly for a westerner too, I have also heard quite a few Thai's say that it's not very clear what they mean

Michael

Different situation but you could only get an original birth certificate replacement at the amphur where it was originally issued when I did it last in 2006, don't know if that has changed

Simple1 is right that your daughter must be registered on a blue tabien baan to get an ID card (so she should bring tabien baan too, she will not formally need chau baan, master of the house hold but they may still ask for that person anyway as it is the best witness 

My daughters mother pawned the family car behind my back once many years ago and I got a bit irritated and kicked her out of my tabien baan... She could still replace her ID card at the same amphur when it expired so that can be done anywhere with the expired ID as ID :)

I doubt this applies for the OPs case though. I'm sure there is a process (that must be followed) to get an original Thai birth certificate issued for the first time but it's not common and normal officers probably don't know. Better get to the amphur around 8AM and explain and ask to see the supervisor

I have not done this myself in any way but the fundamentals here are clear: She is a 22 year old Thai citizen, she has reached majority in Thailand (happens at the age of 20), she does not need parental consent (which would have complicated things). The key is if she has her original Thai birth certificate or not (a translated English one is useless at Tessaban/amphur), Thai passport is not the correct Thai document and won't do. If she does, then she is in the system and just a Thai citizen who for whatever reason never has had an ID card before. She just go there with her original birth certificate and copies, 2 adult Thai witnesses who know her with their original ID cards and copies and that's it. She should need no foreign documents

If she doesn't have her original birth certificate, then it should get problematic and probably lengthy, she must get one. Tessaban/amphur there may not even be able to do it. She needs Thai paper work for sure (whatever issued by the Thai embassy in English won't do). She needs an original Thai birth certificate and then everything else should be easy

On 23/06/2017 at 2:46 AM, sead said:

As i understand you are only obliged to pay childsupport if you are married before the childs birth. Even if you agree to sign as the father of the child she cant force you to pay childsupport. 

BUT PLEASE ASK A LAWYER ABOUT THIS.

You should only agree to sign any paper if you intend to have sole custody. If not you can support your child and choose to stop if you notice the money ain't going where they should. But she going for it all so be prepared.

No, that is not correct. Marriage has nothing to do with child support or not, being recognised as father does and you can be that with or without marriage

The mother gets sole custody automatically if the mother and father are not married In most countries in the world (including what we call western countries). The difference is that there normally is an automatic process that gives the father and mother shared custody a few days after birth in western countries while it is manual in Thailand. Thai law and the law in many other Asian countries is written that way specifically to protect the child and it is a good thing

So what does this mean? It means that an unmarried father has neither rights nor responsibilities, he has no right to see his child unless the mother allows him (regardless of the fathers name on the useless birth certificate) and he has then of course no obligation to pay even one single baht for his child if he doesn't want to 

If a mother wants to ensure money, then she'll have to demand that the father legally recognises his child and this will give the father both responsibilities and rights. Amphur: Both mother, father and child must agree, hence the 7 year age limit. Court: Any time

If mother and father live together and both want the father to be legitimised, then there is no money decided at all in court. If they have separated and father wants to be legitimised (the most common case) then he'll have to pay some money, should be perhaps 4,000 up to 7-8,000 baht per month and he will get time with the child if he wants it unless there are very strong reasons. He also have the right to demand that only legal guardians take care of the child => mother must take care entirely herself her time or give to father and father must take care entirely himself his time or give to mother.

On 22/06/2017 at 1:34 AM, Kenny202 said:

We are together now and things are ok and I am trying everything possible to hold it all together for the benefit of my son. Im hoping for the best

but unfortunately her unstable history last 2 years I need to plan for any eventuality.

That is perfect. So be nice and give her a nice lumpsum if she supports legitimisation as partners (=both ask for legitimisation in court) but make very clear that you will absolutely not accept to marry under any circumstances (as the court surely will ask why don't you marry and rather will want you to do that... :) ). 

There should be no money (as you're still together), there should be no custody battle (as you both live together). But that is up to if the mother accepts to be nice and say the right things. Forgot: Half before and half after of course

On 22/06/2017 at 1:34 AM, Kenny202 said:

Other question is could she apply to the Australian government for support? I have been told this is entirely possible. Again not sure

how easy this would be for her to do. Someone suggested to me she would have to practically become an Australian resident and register for centrelink

to do this. Im not sure if this is right or not or maybe she could apply on his behalf as he is an Aussie citizen?

Can't say for sure about Australia but that got to be a very very long shot. My daughter is half Thai / half Swedish born in Thailand with Swedish citizenship, we have shared custody in Thailand but the Thai mother has sole custody of her in Sweden regardless of if she ever has set her foot in Sweden or not. Because citizenship and custody are 2 different things. Did you apply for custody of your child in Australia? 

On 22/06/2017 at 1:34 AM, Kenny202 said:

She has no transport apart from Songtows and motorcycle taxis and she would put him in harms way.

Sontgtows and motor cycle taxis or not means nothing in Thailand, here it is just normal

On 22/06/2017 at 1:34 AM, Kenny202 said:

t there are plenty of farang wife forums around and guess what the general theme of the topics are? How to extract

as much money as possible from your farang other half

And the solution is to not trust your Thai lawyer, be the leader (don't expect your Thai lawyer to fight well for you if you are not), be nice, be hard, be fair and most of all, don't be afraid of the Thai Juvenile system at all - it is fair but as with most things in Asia, the weak will lose out (monetarily) to the strong = and women are often stronger than men, read Thai women and western men  

Should be quite easy this one

Michael

13 minutes ago, Mattd said:

It is probably based on the circumstances of the divorce etc. and possibly on the age of the children at that time perhaps, mine were 13 & 16 at that time.

Age of the children is a good point, yes

16 hours ago, Mattd said:

I am not so sure about this part, when I divorced it was amicable and at the Amphur office with an agreement signed by both parties, the custody of the children and financial settlement etc. in this agreement, the Amphur office issued the divorce certificate to both of us and signed / stamped 3 copies of the agreement, one for each of us and one for filing at the Amphur office, the divorce was full and final on the same day.

My experience is with children involved, it took a month to get the divorce certificate, this happened a couple of times 6-7 years ago

A rule is not a rule is not a rule perhaps :) I don't know, perhaps they only send over cases where there is doubt regarding legality or if the agreement is good for the child 

There is no standard definition. Science Olympics, Mathematics Olympics, Education Olympics, these are simply competitive tests of theoretical knowledge. It can be anything from an internal event "xxx Olympics" in a private school to nationwide spectacles (Japan). It's more often something on a bit bigger scale. 

Not heard of it but it wouldn't surprise me if some private schools even call their entrance exams "Olympics", sounds cheap to me but if parents buy it, it's good marketing. Top places can perhaps get scholarships at famous schools if it's a really big event, again, just good marketing  

The law states that you must sue within 12 months if assets are not transferred - regardless of case still is under appeal (check if your lawyer know that, most Thai lawyers don't) - but the big question here is from what date.

I really don't know if the 2 parties can mutually decide for a date 10 years in the future and it starts to count from that date. Very interesting idea of your lawyer. Brilliant actually. 

Michael :)