Regarding 1 year ban for overstaying

[BritTim]

48 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

1 hour ago, 007 RED said:

This is a fairly good indication that the problem lies with the APIS and Thai immigration database possibly having incorrect info in it.... hence the APIS feeding back a do not allow to board code.

 

I understand this but if this is the case why was he allowed to board the first time he returned?

I speculate that, at the time of his first visit, the old and new passports were not linked in immigration's system. As a result, he was not flagged on the APIS list. Following the initial entry, the passports were linked. Most likely, he should not have been flagged, but it is no surprise that immigration's system has bugs.

[micky pal]

5 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Personally I would contact a Thai Embassy in India, explain the situation and ask them to contact Immigration to get this red flag removed and get a official letter stating that it has been removed in case of any further issues with the Airlines

 

If the Embassy won't help then contact Immigration directly to resolve

Thanks buddy , even one of my friends he also advised me the same . But , I'm just wondering that how could I be blacklisted till now when  in the month of may I was admitted into thailand at the suvarnabhum immigration ??? That question is perplexing me 

[darrendsd]

29 minutes ago, micky pal said:

Thanks buddy , even one of my friends he also advised me the same . But , I'm just wondering that how could I be blacklisted till now when  in the month of may I was admitted into thailand at the suvarnabhum immigration ??? That question is perplexing me 

Yes it is a strange situation, as another poster suggested maybe the new PP triggered something?

 

Hope you get sorted but please don't do what some other posters have suggested of just booking a flight on another Airline, yes you may be lucky but who is to say this won't happen again the future, best to try and get sorted before you book again if you can

[007 RED]

12 hours ago, micky pal said:

...... But , I'm just wondering that how could I be blacklisted till now when  in the month of may I was admitted into thailand at the suvarnabhum immigration ??? That question is perplexing me 

Micky... Sorry this is a longish post, but hope the information helps you understand and resolve your problem.

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, APIS was introduced into Thailand in the early part of 2016.  That doesn’t mean to say that the system went live from day one.  It has been gradually introduced one airline at a time over some considerable time.  This was to allow each airlines to accommodate the requirements within their own systems (plus staff training etc).  That said, many of the major legacy airlines would be familiar with the APIS as it has been a requirement for a number of years in many European countries and the USA.

 

I suspect that when you travelled Thailand in May 2017 the airline that you used then had not been linked to the Thai APIS at the time, hence you were allowed to travel.  Unfortunately, when you checked in for your flight in September, TG were fully operational with the Thai APIS and hence they refused your boarding because the feedback code which they received indicated an immigration issue.

 

I have a feeling that the error which caused your denial to board code being sent back to TG by APIS is as a result of a simple (or stupid) date problem.  The APIS requires dates to be entered in ‘western’ format e.g. year = 2017, but if the clerical person who entered your ‘ban’ details into the immigration system did so in Thai date format (year = 2560), and this was not automatically converted to a ‘western’ year, this would mean that you are banned from entering Thailand for the next 543 years  .

 

You mentioned that when you arrived at BKK in May 2017 the IO questioned you.  Clearly he/she would have seen the details of your 'ban' on their computer screen when they scanned your passport.   Obviously, he/she would know that 2560 was the current year in the Thai calendar and that your ‘ban’ had expired, thus they allowed you to enter.

 

Getting the problem resolved is not going to be easy.  Whilst you can contact your local Thai Embassy/Consulate, I personally would not give much hope that they will be able, or willing to assist.  Thai Embassies/Consulates around the world only have very limited access to the immigration system.  All they can do is send details of visas issued to immigration, they will not be able to see what is held about you on the immigration system or make any amendments to the system.  It is also doubtful that they will take up your concerns with immigration (too much extra work for no reward).

 

You’re other options being:

 

1)  To write to the immigration chief or the Minister of the Interior (who oversees immigration) and explain your predicament and request their assistance in helping you to resolve the matter – possible but a low chance of success, or

 

2)  Employ a solicitor in Thailand to try and resolve the matter on your behalf – expensive and no guarantee of success, or

 

3)  As previously suggested, fly to a neighbouring country and then cross into Thailand via a land border crossing (you may get the same initial questioning that you had when you arrived at BKK in May 2017, but the IO will see your ‘ban’ has expired and allow you to enter Thailand).  Then go to immigration HQ in BKK, and in a face-to-face meeting with an IO explain your case and ask for assistance in resolving the matter (suggest that your GF accompanies you to help with translation if necessary) – reasonable chance of success.

 

Good luck.

Edited September 20, 2017 by 007 RED

[micky pal]

9 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Micky... Sorry this is a longish post, but hope the information helps you understand and resolve your problem.

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, APIS was introduced into Thailand in the early part of 2016.  That doesn’t mean to say that the system went live from day one.  It has been gradually introduced one airline at a time over some considerable time.  This was to allow each airlines to accommodate the requirements within their own systems (plus staff training etc).  That said, many of the major legacy airlines would be familiar with the APIS as it has been a requirement for a number of years in many European countries and the USA.

 

I suspect that when you travelled Thailand in May 2017 the airline that you used then had not been linked to the Thai APIS at the time, hence you were allowed to travel.  Unfortunately, when you checked in for your flight in September, TG were fully operational with the Thai APIS and hence they refused your boarding because the feedback code which they received indicated an immigration issue.

 

I have a feeling that the error which caused your denial to board code being sent back to TG by APIS is as a result of a simple (or stupid) date problem.  The APIS requires dates to be entered in ‘western’ format e.g. year = 2017, but if the clerical person who entered your ‘ban’ details into the immigration system did so in Thai date format (year = 2560), and this was not automatically converted to a ‘western’ year, this would mean that you are banned from entering Thailand for the next 543 years  .

 

You mentioned that when you arrived at BKK in May 2017 the IO questioned you.  Clearly he/she would have seen the details of your 'ban' on their computer screen when they scanned your passport.   Obviously, he/she would know that 2560 was the current year in the Thai calendar and that your ‘ban’ had expired, thus they allowed you to enter.

 

Getting the problem resolved is not going to be easy.  Whilst you can contact your local Thai Embassy/Consulate, I personally would not give much hope that they will be able, or willing to assist.  Thai Embassies/Consulates around the world only have very limited access to the immigration system.  All they can do is send details of visas issued to immigration, they will not be able to see what is held about you on the immigration system or make any amendments to the system.  It is also doubtful that they will take up your concerns with immigration (too much extra work for no reward).

 

You’re other options being:

 

1)  To write to the immigration chief or the Minister of the Interior (who oversees immigration) and explain your predicament and request their assistance in helping you to resolve the matter – possible but a low chance of success, or

 

2)  Employ a solicitor in Thailand to try and resolve the matter on your behalf – expensive and no guarantee of success, or

 

3)  As previously suggested, fly to a neighbouring country and then cross into Thailand via a land border crossing (you may get the same initial questioning that you had when you arrived at BKK in May 2017, but the IO will see your ‘ban’ has expired and allow you to enter Thailand).  Then go to immigration HQ in BKK, and in a face-to-face meeting with an IO explain your case and ask for assistance in resolving the matter (suggest that your GF accompanies you to help with translation if necessary) – reasonable chance of success.

 

Good luck.

Thanks for your reply I really appreciate that cuz it helped me understand most of the things . But last time in the month of may I had used Thai airways , the same flight TG314

[007 RED]

13 hours ago, micky pal said:

Thanks for your reply I really appreciate that cuz it helped me understand most of the things . But last time in the month of may I had used Thai airways , the same flight TG314

Micky......  As I indicated in my previous post, it is possible that when you took your flight to Thailand in May TG were not operating the Thai APIS.  So when you checked-in for that flight TG would not have been aware of any problem(s) with immigration and you were allowed to fly on that occasion.   This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that you were questioned about your previous overstay by immigration when you arrived at BKK on that occassion.

 

When you tried to fly to Thailand again in September, TG refused to board you because they had received an APIS code indicating that there was a problem with your immigration status.  This would seem to indicate that between May and September TG went live on the APIS with the Thai Authorities.

 

I hope this explanation resolves your concern.

[Mattd]

http://www.thai-apps.com/en/about/participate-agencies.html

 

Explains the process a little.

[darrendsd]

43 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Micky......  As I indicated in my previous post, it is possible that when you took your flight to Thailand in May TG were not operating the Thai APIS.  So when you checked-in for that flight TG would not have been aware of any problem(s) with immigration and you were allowed to fly on that occasion.   This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that you were questioned about your previous overstay by immigration when you arrived at BKK on that occassion.

 

When you tried to fly to Thailand again in September, TG refused to board you because they had received an APIS code indicating that there was a problem with your immigration status.  This would seem to indicate that between May and September TG went live on the APIS with the Thai Authorities.

 

I hope this explanation resolves your concern.

Unless you have direct access to the APIS system you are just speculating, you like the OP and everyone else here cannot give a definite reason as to why the OP was refused boarding the 2nd time

 

FYI it is normal practice for anyone who has been blacklisted in the past to be questioned by Immigration, this has nothing to do with APIS, the details of the blacklist would have been on the I/O's system, it has been like that for years and has nothing to do with the APIS system

[ubonjoe]

I think this post is correct as to why he did not have a problem before.

On 9/19/2017 at 7:56 PM, BritTim said:

I speculate that, at the time of his first visit, the old and new passports were not linked in immigration's system. As a result, he was not flagged on the APIS list. Following the initial entry, the passports were linked. Most likely, he should not have been flagged, but it is no surprise that immigration's system has bugs.

New passport number was used the first time for APIS. Now old and new numbers are linked.

I suggested earlier that he have is old passport with him the next time he travels to show if there is a problem.

[Mattd]

Not really on topic, however, this subject of APIS or APPS (as the Thai's call it) raises an interesting thought, if a person, such as the OP, purchases a non-refundable ticket in good faith with an airline and boarding is subsequently denied due to the country of destination sending the 'do not board' message to the airline, then would you be able to legitimately claim a refund, as it is entirely feasible that you may not know that you are not allowed to enter the destination country, or, as it appears to be in the case of the OP, it is a mistake.

Seems to me the system is inherently flawed in someways, the refusal should come at the time of booking and the booking then refused, unless the reason for denial happens after booking the ticket.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Unless you have direct access to the APIS system you are just speculating, you like the OP and everyone else here cannot give a definite reason as to why the OP was refused boarding the 2nd time

 

FYI it is normal practice for anyone who has been blacklisted in the past to be questioned by Immigration, this has nothing to do with APIS, the details of the blacklist would have been on the I/O's system, it has been like that for years and has nothing to do with the APIS system

Darren  ..... Your quite correct in so far that I don't have direct access to the Thai API system (even if I do I would not be admitting it on an open forum), and that yes you could say that I am speculating.

 

That said, my speculation comes from over 10 years working on the development of eBoarder Control Systems as a senior security advisor following the aftermath of 911.  Based upon considerable experience from introducing the APIS into a number of countries I am well aware of the many problems that can be encountered when the APIS is linked into various local agency databases.

 

Having acted as a consultant to during the initial introduction of the APIS within Thailand, I have sound knowledge of when it was implemented, which Government databases it is connected to and in what order airlines became operational on the system.

 

It is from my experience that I gave my advice to the OP which, given the laws of probability, are fairly accurate.

 

[007 RED]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think this post is correct as to why he did not have a problem before.

New passport number was used the first time for APIS. Now old and new numbers are linked.

I suggested earlier that he have is old passport with him the next time he travels to show if there is a problem.

Joe .... FYI .... when a passport number is passed to the Thai Immigration via APIS, the immigration system will do it's normal checks.  If the passport number is known the immigration system checks to see if there is anything untoward or not and then sends back the appropriate code to board/not to board.  If the passport number is not known the immigration system then cross checks against other data e.g. Country Code; Gender; Date of Birth; Family & First names.  If there is no match the immigration system records the new information.  If there is a match with an old passport number then the immigration system links the two numbers together and sends back a corresponding code to accept or deny travel.

 

In the OP's case, when he travelled in May the APIS was not operational for TG so TG would not have been made aware that there  may be a problem regarding his immigration status.  The system became active in June, hence when he tried to travel in September TG would have sent his details to the Thai Authorities via the APIS (which would have linked his old & new passport numbers together) and TG would have received a feedback code back indicating deny boarding.

 

FYI ..... APIS not only send passenger information to the immigration system, but also customs and various security agencies, any of whom could put a block on a person travelling.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

Not really on topic, however, this subject of APIS or APPS (as the Thai's call it) raises an interesting thought, if a person, such as the OP, purchases a non-refundable ticket in good faith with an airline and boarding is subsequently denied due to the country of destination sending the 'do not board' message to the airline, then would you be able to legitimately claim a refund, as it is entirely feasible that you may not know that you are not allowed to enter the destination country, or, as it appears to be in the case of the OP, it is a mistake.

Seems to me the system is inherently flawed in someways, the refusal should come at the time of booking and the booking then refused, unless the reason for denial happens after booking the ticket.

An interesting point.... But I would wager that buried in the small print of the airlines terms & conditions of carriage there will be a clause that says they are not responsible for a passenger being denied travel by an official government agency.  I suspect the same will apply to travel insurance.

 

FYI .... Although many airlines collect the passenger information at the time of booking, most send it in 'bulk' via APIS to the port of arrival approximately 24 hours before departure, so they would not would not be able to 'block' a booking.  Only last minute bookings are sent individually within the 24 hour period up to 1 hour before boarding. 

[darrendsd]

1 hour ago, 007 RED said:

Joe .... FYI .... when a passport number is passed to the Thai Immigration via APIS, the immigration system will do it's normal checks.  If the passport number is known the immigration system checks to see if there is anything untoward or not and then sends back the appropriate code to board/not to board.  If the passport number is not known the immigration system then cross checks against other data e.g. Country Code; Gender; Date of Birth; Family & First names.  If there is no match the immigration system records the new information.  If there is a match with an old passport number then the immigration system links the two numbers together and sends back a corresponding code to accept or deny travel.

 

In the OP's case, when he travelled in May the APIS was not operational for TG so TG would not have been made aware that there  may be a problem regarding his immigration status.  The system became active in June, hence when he tried to travel in September TG would have sent his details to the Thai Authorities via the APIS (which would have linked his old & new passport numbers together) and TG would have received a feedback code back indicating deny boarding.

 

FYI ..... APIS not only send passenger information to the immigration system, but also customs and various security agencies, any of whom could put a block on a person travelling.

This maybe so 

 

1 hour ago, 007 RED said:

Darren  ..... Your quite correct in so far that I don't have direct access to the Thai API system (even if I do I would not be admitting it on an open forum), and that yes you could say that I am speculating.

 

That said, my speculation comes from over 10 years working on the development of eBoarder Control Systems as a senior security advisor following the aftermath of 911.  Based upon considerable experience from introducing the APIS into a number of countries I am well aware of the many problems that can be encountered when the APIS is linked into various local agency databases.

 

Having acted as a consultant to during the initial introduction of the APIS within Thailand, I have sound knowledge of when it was implemented, which Government databases it is connected to and in what order airlines became operational on the system.

 

It is from my experience that I gave my advice to the OP which, given the laws of probability, are fairly accurate.

 

This is all maybe so and I do not doubt you but all this complex info is not going to help the OP get his problem sorted

 

Only following what some posters have advised him to do (including yourself in another post)  will resolve his problem

 

Hopefully he will but even when he does I doubt he will ever be told the exact reason why it happened, he will just be told it is now sorted and you can fly to Thailand again

[micky pal]

7 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Unless you have direct access to the APIS system you are just speculating, you like the OP and everyone else here cannot give a definite reason as to why the OP was refused boarding the 2nd time

 

FYI it is normal practice for anyone who has been blacklisted in the past to be questioned by Immigration, this has nothing to do with APIS, the details of the blacklist would have been on the I/O's system, it has been like that for years and has nothing to do with the APIS system

Thanks for your reply mate , and yes we can assume that thing must have happened . But at this point of time these are just assumptions and I hope the immigration division at chaengwatana might throw some light on this situation .

because as far my knowledge is concerned , if was still blacklisted then I shouldn’t have be admitted on the 29/05/2017 aswell.  But when the ban period is over then the name should come out of the black list ?? 

Cuz I have already faced the penalty of an yeAr ban and a fine was 20,000 thai baht was imposed which I have already paid last year while departing . 

[micky pal]

8 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Micky......  As I indicated in my previous post, it is possible that when you took your flight to Thailand in May TG were not operating the Thai APIS.  So when you checked-in for that flight TG would not have been aware of any problem(s) with immigration and you were allowed to fly on that occasion.   This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that you were questioned about your previous overstay by immigration when you arrived at BKK on that occassion.

 

When you tried to fly to Thailand again in September, TG refused to board you because they had received an APIS code indicating that there was a problem with your immigration status.  This would seem to indicate that between May and September TG went live on the APIS with the Thai Authorities.

 

I hope this explanation resolves your concern.

In the following images attached below 

one shows an yeAr ban and other image shows the entry and exit stamps in Bangkok in the month of may 2017 

[ubonjoe]

31 minutes ago, micky pal said:

In the following images attached below 

one shows an yeAr ban and other image shows the entry and exit stamps in Bangkok in the month of may 2017 

I think you should go to a Thai Airways office near you with both passports to find out if they can help you get things sorted out.

The one year ban apparently has not been removed from the system. It may be that the system does not have the ability to determine that the banning has a expiration date.

[micky pal]

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I think you should go to a Thai Airways office near you with both passports to find out if they can help you get things sorted out.

The one year ban apparently has not been removed from the system. It may be that the system does not have the ability to determine that the banning has a expiration date.

Thanks for the message .. yeah I also feel the same cuz the 1 year ban has not been removed from the system . Moreover the Thai immigration should mention a specific date so that the applicant is well aware of the fact that when it would expire 

[Awk]

On 9/21/2017 at 10:12 AM, darrendsd said:

This maybe so 

 

This is all maybe so and I do not doubt you but all this complex info is not going to help the OP get his problem sorted

 

Only following what some posters have advised him to do (including yourself in another post)  will resolve his problem

 

Hopefully he will but even when he does I doubt he will ever be told the exact reason why it happened, he will just be told it is now sorted and you can fly to Thailand again

 

But it does provide a quite good explanation to the OP regarding what has quite likely happened.  Thanks to 007 Red for that.  It was interesting to read.  It would also indicate that trying again, possibly with another airline, will not help, unless there has been so many complaints since the OP's last denied boarding that Thai immigration have become aware of a systemic problem and started to recheck all old entries for correctness by themselves.

 

I suspect 007 Red's suggestion of turning up at immigration in Thailand may be the best way of getting the problem fixed, after entering through a land border where there will presumably be a human who will examine the records of his ban, and not an automated computer system rejecting him.

 

I also like UbonJoe's  idea of contacting the local Thai airways office for help as a first try, showing them the old passport too.  Would not expect the OP being able to make the local Thai embassy take any interest in such a problem.

 

 

[micky pal]

On 9/21/2017 at 5:37 PM, ubonjoe said:

I think you should go to a Thai Airways office near you with both passports to find out if they can help you get things sorted out.

The one year ban apparently has not been removed from the system. It may be that the system does not have the ability to determine that the banning has a expiration date.

Thanks for the guidance guys my situation is sorted out . My girl friend had gone to the sathorn immigration office where there is the IT centre of the immigration police and they gave her forms which she sent me and filled them and posted them back to her along with my passport copy and They told her that my ban has already finished and now the name has been taken out of the blacklist and I can fly . I just want to ask now as my visa would finish on 24 October and I plan to fly on 7th of October for a period of 12 days then at the airport would I be granted. 30 days or 60 days stay ?? 

Edited October 5, 2017 by micky pal

[Mattd]

27 minutes ago, micky pal said:

I just want to ask now as my visa would finish on 24 October and I plan to fly on 7th of October for a period of 12 days then at the airport would I be granted. 30 days or 60 days stay ?? 

So long as you enter prior to 24th October, then you will get 60 days.

Glad it is sorted.

[micky pal]

On 10/5/2017 at 8:58 AM, Mattd said:

So long as you enter prior to 24th October, then you will get 60 days.

Glad it is sorted.

Thanks for the guidance , I finally landed successfully yesterday morning and have been granted 60 days 

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, micky pal said:

Thanks for the guidance , I finally landed successfully yesterday morning and have been granted 60 days 

Good news! Did you receive any questioning from the immigration officials on entry, or was it a quick, silent process?

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎21‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 7:07 PM, ubonjoe said:

I think you should go to a Thai Airways office near you with both passports to find out if they can help you get things sorted out.

The one year ban apparently has not been removed from the system. It may be that the system does not have the ability to determine that the banning has a expiration date.

you have the date with your departed stamp + 1 year.

[micky pal]

hi thanks for messaging me back and I really apologise for late reply , cuz I was busy with my fiancé . Well this time I didn’t  had any questioning and it was a normal silent process . I have been granted 60 days and admitted until 4th of December 2017 . That’s exactly 60 days from , 6 th of October . I’m flying back on the 21st of November 2017 . 

[micky pal]

On 10/7/2017 at 12:24 PM, BritTim said:

Good news! Did you receive any questioning from the immigration officials on entry, or was it a quick, silent process?

Thanks for messaging me . Well it was a Normal and a silent process this time and I didn’t hadn’t any questioning by the immigration police officials . I have been granted 60 days entry until ( 4th of December 2017) . However I shall be departing on the 21st of November 2017 .