U.S. VP Pence leaves NFL game after players kneel during anthem

[Skywalker69]

20 hours ago, Kim1950 said:

Knelling is over. The past. Gone. Did any of you watch NFL this Sunday. Guess not. Knelling was never a strategy for the cause of minority disadvantage or injustice. Never was a sustaining program or 'statement' to remedy the problem. All you got was Kaepernick suing the NFL for a QB Job. Those who gained were the PR Consultant Class of the NFL, the owners, the players union, corporate sponsors, and a very very few high profile players. The rest of you, who pay for the stadiums, play the bickering narratives of the meaning of anthems or constitutional rights are chumps. Get down on Weinstein, like most people have for years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/14/sports/soccer/german-soccer-team-kneels-in-solidarity-with-nfl-players-protests.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/24/donald-trump-nfl-protests-kneel-anthem

[Thakkar]

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-soulless-coward-coach-gregg-popovich-responds-to-trump/

 

‘A Soulless Coward’: Coach Gregg Popovich Responds to Trump | The Nation

 

- -

To Trump supporters, “Soulless coward” doesn’t have the same catchiness as “lyin’ Ted” or “crooked Hillary” that eight year olds love.

[DM07]

20 hours ago, amvet said:

Are you trying to be dense?  The Canadian hockey players would be seen to disrespect Canada if they sat down on the ice during the playing of the national anthem.  Disrespecting the flag in the USA is protected behavior and lands no one in jail.  I assume you are not an American.  No one except a moron or two has ever said that disrespect of the flag is not protected under the Bill of Rights..  

The would be seen to disrespect- still they wouldn't end up in jail, as you might well do in Thailand!

Are you trying to be dense?

I am not an American!

I stand for any anthem, including that of my own country- out of respect, for those, who see it fitting!

I would sit down during the anthem of my country, the moment, I would see it fit to do so!

It's called "freedom" and "having an opinion"...

[amvet]

26 minutes ago, DM07 said:

The would be seen to disrespect- still they wouldn't end up in jail, as you might well do in Thailand!

Are you trying to be dense?

I am not an American!

I stand for any anthem, including that of my own country- out of respect, for those, who see it fitting!

I would sit down during the anthem of my country, the moment, I would see it fit to do so!

It's called "freedom" and "having an opinion"...

I agree with that.  My only point was through this whole thing that is disrespect.  It is their right to be disrespectful. I don't think one has to be disrespectful to have an opinion but I'm a minority here with that opinion.  I think the TV mantra is one can have an opinion as long as it's liberal. 

[Publicus]

26 minutes ago, amvet said:

I agree with that.  My only point was through this whole thing that is disrespect.  It is their right to be disrespectful. I don't think one has to be disrespectful to have an opinion but I'm a minority here with that opinion.  I think the TV mantra is one can have an opinion as long as it's liberal. 

 

You have your opinion which is unsupported by your posts.

 

This is because the Constitution is superior to the anthem, the flag, the pledge of allegiance and all nationalist credenda. No military member swore an oath to the flag on their induction or commission. None swore an oath to the national anthem. None swore an oath to support and defend the pledge of allegiance...or prayer in school and so on.

Bearing the flag high into battle to protect home, mom and apple pie is not in the Constitution. Nor have such motivational credenda ever been in the Constitution. 

Rightwingers need to recognize and respect the fact civilians do not have the experience with the anthem and the flag the military has on a daily basis. Indeed, the military, its overwhelmingly rightwing veterans with their civilian rightwing enforcers of military codes and practices do in fact disrespect the Constitution in this dispute. This does need to be moderated and this dispute is a good instance of the how and the why of it.

No one in this dispute is talking about abolishing the flag or any of the rest of the emotional credenda Trump loves to pound on. All the same, if all the USA flags in existence were destroyed we would still have the Constitution. If the Constitution were destroyed or nullified all the USA flags in existence would represent nothing.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Publicus
Technical

[Thakkar]

9 minutes ago, amvet said:

What Trump bubble?  Where? 

 

According to News Busters -- a thing -- in the last three months, broadcast news coverage of Donald Trump was 91 percent negative, which is shocking. There was nine percent positive? I didn't see it. I've seen more favorable coverage of scurvy.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2017/09/12/media-continues-its-anti-trump-campaign.html

 

After nine months of Trump, If only we were so fortunate as to now have a choice between scurvy or Trump! I know what I’d choose.

[amvet]

1 hour ago, Publicus said:

You have your opinion which is unsupported by your posts.

 

This is because the Constitution is superior to the anthem, the flag, the pledge of allegiance and all nationalist credenda. No military member swore an oath to the flag on their induction or commission. None swore an oath to the national anthem. None swore an oath to support and defend the pledge of allegiance...or prayer in school and so on.

Bearing the flag high into battle to protect home, mom and apple pie is not in the Constitution. Nor have such motivational credenda ever been in the Constitution. 

Rightwingers need to recognize and respect the fact civilians do not have the experience with the anthem and the flag the military has on a daily basis. Indeed, the military, its overwhelmingly rightwing veterans with their civilian rightwing enforcers of military codes and practices do in fact disrespect the Constitution in this dispute. This does need to be moderated and this dispute is a good instance of the how and the why of it.

No one in this dispute is talking about abolishing the flag or any of the rest of the emotional credenda Trump loves to pound on. All the same, if all the USA flags in existence were destroyed we would still have the Constitution. If the Constitution were destroyed or nullified all the USA flags in existence would represent nothing.

You could quote any of my posts that did not support my statement that the kneeling, black powering or sitting is legal but not respectful. 

Frankly you are out of touch.  The number of NFL players sitting out the anthem fell dramatically on Sunday.

 

On Sunday, the vast majority of players chose to stand for the anthem, although teams such as the Baltimore Ravens and Jacksonville Jaguars knelt before the Star-Spangled Banner was played.  Fans booed players who chose to kneel.

 

Fans don't like mixing sports with politics.  If Trump was a bit brighter he would have ignored the whole thing and let the fans lead the charge to keep politics out of sports. 

[Green Acres]

On 10/15/2017 at 7:06 PM, amvet said:

Sitting and black power salute.  It is obvious to all of us that kneeling or sitting or giving the black power salute during the playing of the American National Anthem is meant to be disrespectful.  If it wasn't it would not be a protest.  Duh....

Oh, ye of narrow mind. I see no disrespect, only freedom of expression.

[amvet]

34 minutes ago, Green Acres said:

Oh, ye of narrow mind. I see no disrespect, only freedom of expression.

Then the protest won't work.  The idea of the protest is man bites dog not dog bites man.  The protest is supposed to upset people by disrespecting American institutions. 

 

See the deal is, America was the only nation in the world that had to have a civil war to abolish slavery.   Black people in America are still not treated equally with white people.  Since football is 70% black it is an ideal venue to express displeasure with the American system hence the players are performing in a disrespectful manner during the playing of the American National Anthem to draw attention to unequal treatment under the law. 

 

Have I explained it adequately?  The nature many protests is disrespect.  Anti fur people disrespect clothing conventions by going nude.  Feminists disrespect bras by burning them.  The American Revolution disrespected British taxes by conducting the Boston Tea Party. 

[Credo]

He could probably get most of the nation to kneel if we thought he would leave for good.

 

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, Kim1950 said:

He has. He killed the Obamacare's cost-sharing subsidies.
...

No he didn't actually. Today he announced support for a two year bill to keep them going. He's a total conman and he doesn't understand the first thing about health care policy. He is very good at being a demagogue though. 

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No he didn't actually. Today he announced support for a two year bill to keep them going. He's a total conman and he doesn't understand the first thing about health care policy. He is very good at being a demagogue though. 

Do you even know how government is funded? Hint: it is not by Executive Order. Funding by Congress is the only legal, appropriate, sustainable way to fund government programs.

[Publicus]

12 hours ago, Kim1950 said:

He has. He killed the Obamacare's cost-sharing subsidies. Made Buddies with Mitch for Tax Reform and filling scores of federal court vacancies. Bundled Hillary into the 'Kneeling Salute' political mire. He's always loaded for bear. CBS won't broadcast the anthem segments of NFL games. I doubt, he even cares much about the issue. I don't care if the players protest. It's just not an effective tactic to help the problems of the minority community. I also don't like the NFL productizing US anthems, flags, 'Thank You For Your Service' on field dramas and tee shirts, or military flyovers to sell beer, trucks, ED Meds,  or military recruitments.

 

That's a lot of polemic in one little post. My post you responded to wuz about Trumpettes while your post is about El Duce Himself. 

 

Let's take your stuff one at a time.

 

Five hours after your post Trump supported the Alexander-Murray proposal in the Senate to fund the ACA subsidies for two more years.

 

The Don and Mitch tax talk is another dancing bears show, i.e., a sure disaster in the Republican making. I enjoyed seeing Mitch squirm on the South Lawn btw. (Someone said Mitch brought a taster with him.)

 

Hillary injured her foot in London and praised the NHS for its excellent treatment of it.

 

Yes Trump is always loaded for bear so he might do well to resign and become yet another loudmouth ignoramus radio talk show host where his idiot statements do not matter to world leaders. He could interview Kim on his first show.

 

Your opinion that the protest demonstrations are ineffective are in fact a denial of reality. Your objections to commercialization are common and ineffective while any supposed objection you mutter about the militarization of the civilian society don't qualify as an audible.  

 

Other than all of that the post wuz probably your best post to date thx.

[boomerangutang]

5 hours ago, Credo said:

He could probably get most of the nation to kneel if we thought he would leave for good.

Good point. That's probably Trump's biggest private fear - re; the professional sportsmen protesting.  .....is that it could readily expand TO A PROTEST AGAINST HIM.   Trump knows most Americans hate him and Pence, but he hasn't experienced the hugeness of that hate.  He will.  It's a deep-set carnal hate, fueled partly by Americans' sadness in seeing their country debilitate, largely due to the words and actions of one dangerous dufus.  

 

 

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

Good point. That's probably Trump's biggest private fear - re; the professional sportsmen protesting.  .....is that it could readily expand TO A PROTEST AGAINST HIM.   Trump knows most Americans hate him and Pence, but he hasn't experienced the hugeness of that hate.  He will.  It's a deep-set carnal hate, fueled partly by Americans' sadness in seeing their country debilitate, largely due to the words and actions of one dangerous dufus.  

 

 

 

Did those people just wake up from a 40 year slumber?

[Publicus]

On 10/16/2017 at 8:29 AM, Kim1950 said:

Knelling is over. The past. Gone. Did any of you watch NFL this Sunday. Guess not. Knelling was never a strategy for the cause of minority disadvantage or injustice. Never was a sustaining program or 'statement' to remedy the problem. All you got was Kaepernick suing the NFL for a QB Job. Those who gained were the PR Consultant Class of the NFL, the owners, the players union, corporate sponsors, and a very very few high profile players. The rest of you, who pay for the stadiums, play the bickering narratives of the meaning of anthems or constitutional rights are chumps. Get down on Weinstein, like most people have for years.

 

Methinks the headaches of the farout right have only begun. Stand, kneel or sit, protests in a number of pro sports against police homicides and malicious violence targeting black Americans is developing and  evolving....  

 

Cavaliers stand, link arms during anthem, while Celtics bow heads

 

 

Before tipoff of the opening game of the 2017-18 NBA season at Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, members of the Cleveland Cavaliers stood and linked arms during the singing of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” choosing a standing demonstration of unity and solidarity over kneeling during the national anthem in opposition to racial inequality, police brutality, and the rhetoric and policies of President Donald Trump

 

It's not a military stand at attention that it suitable to the rightwinger veterans and their rightwinger civilian loudmouth backers. It's just that the reactionaries of the right have even more now to react against while wishing they still had the good ole dayze.

 

This is the Constitutional way to go for the players in sport. The reason is that the Constitution is superior to the anthem and the flag. 

[amvet]

On 10/18/2017 at 11:48 AM, Publicus said:

 

Methinks the headaches of the farout right have only begun. Stand, kneel or sit, protests in a number of pro sports against police homicides and malicious violence targeting black Americans is developing and  evolving....  

Cavaliers stand, link arms during anthem, while Celtics bow heads

Before tipoff of the opening game of the 2017-18 NBA season at Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, members of the Cleveland Cavaliers stood and linked arms during the singing of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” choosing a standing demonstration of unity and solidarity over kneeling during the national anthem in opposition to racial inequality, police brutality, and the rhetoric and policies of President Donald Trump

It's not a military stand at attention that it suitable to the rightwinger veterans and their rightwinger civilian loudmouth backers. It's just that the reactionaries of the right have even more now to react against while wishing they still had the good ole dayze.

 

This is the Constitutional way to go for the players in sport. The reason is that the Constitution is superior to the anthem and the flag. 

I have never said the football players don't have a right to disrupt or disrespect the National Anthem as a venue for social protest.  One simple question if you don't mind.  Do you think the National Anthem at professional sporting events is an appropriate time and place for social protest?

[andersonat]

12 minutes ago, amvet said:

I have never said the football players don't have a right to disrupt or disrespect the National Anthem as a venue for social protest.  One simple question if you don't mind.  Do you think the National Anthem at professional sporting events is an appropriate time and place for social protest?

 

I wouldn't want to see any "frivolous" behaviour during the playing of the Anthem, which would be wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to others present  - but I have no problem with anyone present (sportsmen or viewing-public) making a measured, quiet, "respectful", peaceful, non-belligerent  protest against (in this particular case) perceived long-term, widespread Police-brutality/unaccountability during the playing of the Anthem.

 

*As long as the-powers-that-be-in-America insist on playing the Anthem at public-events*, I think that it's an obvious opportunity for people present to show both their patriotism, at the same time as showing their unhappiness with (a) certain [perceived] social-injustice(s).

 

 - It should *never* be a case of "My Country, right or wrong".

 

[attrayant]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

Do you think the National Anthem at professional sporting events is an appropriate time and place for social protest?

 

This wasn't directed at me but I'll chime in anyway.

 

Answer: It must not be left up to anyone to force, require, legislate or otherwise decide what the "appropriate time and place" is for exercising first amendment rights.  Reason #1: "appropriate time and place" is wholly subjective.  Reason #2: if we can dictate the "appropriate time and place" for exercising our first amendment rights, the right becomes essentially worthless:

 

Nationalist: "Why don't those black people find a nonviolent way to protest instead of rioting."

Black person: (kneels quietly during national anthem)

Nationalist: "NOT LIKE THAT!"

 

Edited to add: The games are taking place on private property and owners can take whatever action then deem appropriate, up to and including termination of players who violate official policies.  There have been enough court decisions stating that employers are within their rights to fire employees whose public speech harms the employer's image.  Therein lies the course for corrective action, if need be.  Trump should have just stayed out of it.  It's between the NFL and its customers.

Edited October 19, 2017 by attrayant

[Publicus]

4 hours ago, amvet said:

I have never said the football players don't have a right to disrupt or disrespect the National Anthem as a venue for social protest.  One simple question if you don't mind.  Do you think the National Anthem at professional sporting events is an appropriate time and place for social protest?

 

You have made your views clear several hundred times at various threads on the topic or in relation to the anthem, the flag, your experience in the Vietnam War; and by your consciously contradictory statements, deliberately self-confounding rhetoric, and your polemic rightwhinge views. The one constant in your presentations is the fast footwork that is obvious to everyone and that only trips up you yourself as you minimize the Constitution.

 

Playing the anthem at sport evens within a country suggests classic European fascism. It is not healthy to the social or national political fabric as we are witnessing in our own country in the ways that are unique to the USA and the Constitution, i.e., apart from the European fashion and history.

 

Americans being who and what we are, we will find our way successfully through the current Constitutional protest demonstrations that are being conducted by high profile and highly popular professional athletes who are both wealthy and wise. These are men of power, influence, respect, accomplishment and achievement; they are applying their views and conscience in a Constitutional manner and they are doing it well. (None of 'em think well of Putin or Trump.)

 

The athletes and other pro sports figures who support the athletes' message and point are being respectful of the Constitution which defines the protest demonstrations as being entirely respectable in everything they are doing and in every way. Yes, the clenched fist included -- it is harmless and it is a legitimate expression of the firmness with which the demonstrating athletes execute their protestations. (Rightwingers who may be concerned the fist may be more than a simple and clear expression of firmness would be overreacting.)

 

One problem for too many Americans is that pro football players are big and scary eh. And during the anthem as it is played moments before gametime they look fierce. A large number of Americans stand shoulder to shoulder with 'em so perhaps the fact can be of a consoling comfort.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Publicus
Big black and scary looking.

[Jingthing]

I like the idea of reading the constitution at football games, instead of the national anthem. Run that idea up the flagpole. 

[wayned]

45 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I like the idea of reading the constitution at football games, instead of the national anthem. Run that idea up the flagpole. 

 

Maybe skip the entire constitution and start with the first amendment and then skip all of the rest and finish with the 25th!

 

[Kim1950]

The average career of an NFL player is 3.3 Years. Of the many thousands of minority students who make high school competive play, then college competitive play, then NFL competitive play are statistical lottery winners. Like below .00001 percent. Few, nearly none, well meaning parent would encourage their child to be trying out for football after school. They would have them studying for a career in STEM. Take a knee for your young brothers and sisters to stop wasting their time on freak'en football. Get a real career. One where you have a chance to win in life.

[metisdead]

Troll posts and replies containing intentional misspellings of a politician's name have been removed. 

[amvet]

5 hours ago, Publicus said:

 

You have made your views clear several hundred times at various threads on the topic or in relation to the anthem, the flag, your experience in the Vietnam War; and by your consciously contradictory statements, deliberately self-confounding rhetoric, and your polemic rightwhinge views. The one constant in your presentations is the fast footwork that is obvious to everyone and that only trips up you yourself as you minimize the Constitution.

 

Playing the anthem at sport evens within a country suggests classic European fascism. It is not healthy to the social or national political fabric as we are witnessing in our own country in the ways that are unique to the USA and the Constitution, i.e., apart from the European fashion and history.

 

Americans being who and what we are, we will find our way successfully through the current Constitutional protest demonstrations that are being conducted by high profile and highly popular professional athletes who are both wealthy and wise. These are men of power, influence, respect, accomplishment and achievement; they are applying their views and conscience in a Constitutional manner and they are doing it well. (None of 'em think well of Putin or Trump.)

 

The athletes and other pro sports figures who support the athletes' message and point are being respectful of the Constitution which defines the protest demonstrations as being entirely respectable in everything they are doing and in every way. Yes, the clenched fist included -- it is harmless and it is a legitimate expression of the firmness with which the demonstrating athletes execute their protestations. (Rightwingers who may be concerned the fist may be more than a simple and clear expression of firmness would be overreacting.)

 

One problem for too many Americans is that pro football players are big and scary eh. And during the anthem as it is played moments before gametime they look fierce. A large number of Americans stand shoulder to shoulder with 'em so perhaps the fact can be of a consoling comfort.

I agree and add it could spark a whole new segment in prime time tv coverage called the "protest during the Anthem minute."

 

Given the kneeling and black power fisting and sitting and circle pow wow techniques are currently being used to protest police shooting black people and washed up quarterbacks wanting another contract may I suggest there are many other visual methods of protest as the below video suggests.

 

 Koepernick conned you all.  He needed a reason to get another million or so because his legitimate career was finished.  It is a game.  G A M E.  I watch a game to relax and take a break from the problems of the world not to be reminded of the problems of the world.

Edited October 20, 2017 by amvet

[Thakkar]

5 hours ago, Publicus said:

<snip>

One problem for too many Americans is that pro football players are big and scary eh.

 

An excellent response in its entirety. However, A small, but discomfiting edit: “pro football players are big, *mostly black* and scary”

[amvet]

1 hour ago, Thakkar said:

 

An excellent response in its entirety. However, A small, but discomfiting edit: “pro football players are big, *mostly black* and scary”

White people don't like football players giving the black power salute during the National Anthem because they are big and scary?  Oh really. 

[boomerangutang]

10 hours ago, amvet said:

I have never said the football players don't have a right to disrupt or disrespect the National Anthem as a venue for social protest.  One simple question if you don't mind.  Do you think the National Anthem at professional sporting events is an appropriate time and place for social protest?

 

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I like the idea of reading the constitution at football games, instead of the national anthem. Run that idea up the flagpole. 

I see your satire.  It begs the question, "how far do Americans want to go to impose patriotism?"

 

Perhaps at each major stoplight, one or more people come out and preach to the cars waiting at the red light.   How about mandatory standing while the anthem plays - before each screening at a movie theater (sounds familiar to any resident in Thailand).   Or saying the pledge of allegiance each time a person gets to a gov't bureau counter for, let's say, to get a drivers license or house building permit.

 

You see the pattern?  Required patriotism can get taken to any lengths that powers-that-be want it to be taken.  The US armed services pays millions of dollars to instate patriotism at ball parks.  School kids in the US are required to voice the 'Pledge of Allegiance.'   Should the pledge be required five times a day, at designated time intervals?   

 

Patriotism should come of itself, not be dictated.

 

 

 

 

 

  

[amvet]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

I see your satire.  It begs the question, "how far do Americans want to go to impose patriotism?"

 

Perhaps at each major stoplight, one or more people come out and preach to the cars waiting at the red light.   How about mandatory standing while the anthem plays - before each screening at a movie theater (sounds familiar to any resident in Thailand).   Or saying the pledge of allegiance each time a person gets to a gov't bureau counter for, let's say, to get a drivers license or house building permit.

 

You see the pattern?  Required patriotism can get taken to any lengths that powers-that-be want it to be taken.  The US armed services pays millions of dollars to instate patriotism at ball parks.  School kids in the US are required to voice the 'Pledge of Allegiance.'   Should the pledge be required five times a day, at designated time intervals?   

 

Patriotism should come of itself, not be dictated. 

America does such a lousy job of history education that it's hard to imaging patriotism being a goal.   Canada plays the National Anthem at sports events do you think they are getting ready to burn down the White House again? 

[Opl]

 

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/10/20/trump-launches-petition-nfl-players-anthem-protests.html