CRS form from HSBC

[partington]

20 minutes ago, Mattd said:

This article refers to closing Barclays Cyprus accounts and not UK based accounts.

 

I would agree that a bank could possibly deem to close an account, but normally would need to have sufficient reasons to do so.

It is doubtful that a person's non-conformance to CRS would be reason, the only reason the banks are panicking to get this info is due to the deadline set by the UK Government to have this all in place by 31st December 2017 for individual accounts of less than 250,000 USD or the equivalent local currency.

The attached goes a long way to explaining.

Understanding CRS.pdf

It doesn't - read it again: it is talking about UK based accounts!

Direct quote:

 

"Many retirees living in Cyprus are loyal Barclays customers, banking with them for decades. Some have their pensions paid into their UK account on a monthly basis. They have now been given notice of closure or find £100,000 to deposit in their account."

 

 

Another source :

http://www.cyprusbuyingguide.com/content/cyprus-closure-expat-bank-accounts-uk

"We have been hearing rumours for a little while now and it has finally been confirmed that Barclays Bank in the UK has decided to close the accounts of expats who no longer have a UK address and bank from abroad."

Reports suggest that tens of thousands of expats could be affected by this decision – which essentially said that unless customers living abroad hold ₤100,000 in their UK accounts, they will be closed from 11th September. "

 

I know what CRS is. I know Thailand isn't even a signatory to it. HMRC therefore don't have a CRS agreement with Thailand to supply information to the Thai Tax authorities about people with possible tax obligations to Thailand.

 

So why are the UK banks insisting on knowing Thai TINs? They are not reasonable and don't have to be.

Edited November 14, 2017 by partington

[Mattd]

Then I do apologise if I misunderstood the article, for me it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as to why any bank would close an account or have a rule that the account must have 100,000 GBP in it if a person banks from overseas, there must be more to this than just that, the article specifically states:

A spokesman for Barclays told the Cyprus Mail: “This isn’t about not providing services to expats, it’s about a de-risking programme that was put in place at the end of 2013 to review and reduce the number of countries we operate in.

Which suggests to me that they were providing some sort of banking service from within Cyprus and surrounding countries.

 

In today's banking world, it makes no odds to the bank where the customer is physically located, so long as the account is active, most customers would transact via Internet Banking nowadays, which is a saving to the bank and absolutely no reason for the bank to operate in any other country.

 

In answer to why does the bank require a TIN for Thailand, I'd imagine it is simply because that is part of the criteria that they have been told to gather and it seems that this has not been that well thought out when it comes to countries such as Thailand, where people have legitimately retired and are not subject to Thai income tax under normal circumstances and the banks are not able to bend to understand this.

The British Government's attitude is that a person must be paying income tax somewhere and if not why not.

 

As stated in one of my earlier posts, I do have a Thai TIN and I do pay Thai income tax, so not quite in the same circumstances as most here, so difficult for me to advise, other than to obtain a Thai TIN just for this purpose and to satisfy the bank if they insist.

 

There are other threads where folks have argued with their banks that Thailand is not yet participating in CRS, so the TIN is N/A.

 

 

 

[ThaiPauly]

My personal banking manager has now seen the reply I sent to HSBC saying that I can't get a TIN as I do not pay tax in Thailand.

 

He asked for my UK NI number, which I told him I already had supplied, but I gave it to him anyway, and said that should be the end of the matter, but to contact him if I get any more messages from the bank.

[simoh1490]

Partington - in your opinion, is there a downside risk to providing UK Revenue with a Thai ID number even though Thailand is not a party to the international agreement? I have in mind specifically that UK Revenue would, by passing along details of earned income, be a catalyst for Thai Revenue to attempt to tax it sooner rather later.

[rockingrobin]

41 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Partington - in your opinion, is there a downside risk to providing UK Revenue with a Thai ID number even though Thailand is not a party to the international agreement? I have in mind specifically that UK Revenue would, by passing along details of earned income, be a catalyst for Thai Revenue to attempt to tax it sooner rather later.

The UK Thailand double taxation treaty has a clause which allows for the transfer of information

Edited November 14, 2017 by rockingrobin

[partington]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Partington - in your opinion, is there a downside risk to providing UK Revenue with a Thai ID number even though Thailand is not a party to the international agreement? I have in mind specifically that UK Revenue would, by passing along details of earned income, be a catalyst for Thai Revenue to attempt to tax it sooner rather later.

You are supplying the Thai ID number to a bank not to HMRC.  Currently there is no requirement or avenue for the UK bank to give HMRC this information as part of CRS obligations since Thailand is not in the CRS.

 

If Thailand signs up to the CRS in future then this information could be transferred: this would not be a bad thing unless you are trying to avoid paying tax which you ought to be paying.

 

If taxable money is being earned within Thailand they have every right to tax it: this is not a downside, it is obeying the law of the country you live in !

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, partington said:

Currently there is no requirement or avenue for the UK bank to give HMRC this information as part of CRS obligations since Thailand is not in the CRS.

And back in pre- 9/11 America, there was no requirement or avenue for a US bank to link my non-resident, non-TIN, non-taxable bank account with my US Social Security number and associated bank accounts and lines of credit. But hidden bits of the Homeland Security Act not only created an avenue but provided a whole Interstate for otherwise privy and confidential information to be shared and linked by every c*** and his dog without even having to contact the customer. A tax grab masquerading as border security.

 

It's a tightening noose.

Edited November 14, 2017 by NanLaew

[simoh1490]

5 hours ago, partington said:

You are supplying the Thai ID number to a bank not to HMRC.  Currently there is no requirement or avenue for the UK bank to give HMRC this information as part of CRS obligations since Thailand is not in the CRS.

 

If Thailand signs up to the CRS in future then this information could be transferred: this would not be a bad thing unless you are trying to avoid paying tax which you ought to be paying.

 

If taxable money is being earned within Thailand they have every right to tax it: this is not a downside, it is obeying the law of the country you live in !

I have no problem paying my taxes, where ever they are due, I'm just trying to think ahead and anticipate how an information transfer such as this one might be abused by the Thai Revenue or indeed, what might happen if the UK Revenue decides at some point in the future to tax world wide earnings, like the US.

[simoh1490]

4 hours ago, NanLaew said:

And back in pre- 9/11 America, there was no requirement or avenue for a US bank to link my non-resident, non-TIN, non-taxable bank account with my US Social Security number and associated bank accounts and lines of credit. But hidden bits of the Homeland Security Act not only created an avenue but provided a whole Interstate for otherwise privy and confidential information to be shared and linked by every c*** and his dog without even having to contact the customer. A tax grab masquerading as border security.

 

It's a tightening noose.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to anticipate.

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, partington said:

You are supplying the Thai ID number to a bank not to HMRC.  Currently there is no requirement or avenue for the UK bank to give HMRC this information as part of CRS obligations since Thailand is not in the CRS.

 

There may be no requirement for them to do this but my bet is that they will simply send all the information they collect to the reporting agency, just to be on the safe side. That's what I would do.

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

A tax grab masquerading as border security.

It's a tightening noose.

 

A noose that apparently only fits round the neck of those who are not currently paying all the taxes they should be paying.

 

Personally I dont care what information is provided to any country anywhere as I have evaded no taxes in any country, and there is nothing I can be billed for anywhere.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

 

A noose that apparently only fits round the neck of those who are not currently paying all the taxes they should be paying.

 

Personally I dont care what information is provided to any country anywhere as I have evaded no taxes in any country, and there is nothing I can be billed for anywhere.

I agree with your sentiment KK but let's take an extreme example which perhaps may turn out to be not so extreme after all!

 

Thai Revenue says that income remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned is taxable, this law is however not currently enforced. If all of a sudden there's a live conduit between UK and Thai Revenue with a wire that has your ID number on both ends, how would you feel if you received a retrospective tax bill from Thai Revenue for UK earned income that they knew you had remitted here - income that was tax free courtesy of the personal allowance in the UK but UK Revenue had told them the year it was earned?

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

A noose that apparently only fits round the neck of those who are not currently paying all the taxes they should be paying.

 

Personally I dont care what information is provided to any country anywhere as I have evaded no taxes in any country, and there is nothing I can be billed for anywhere.

Good for you that your tax affairs are all in order, squeaky clean, totally in lockstep with the rules and regulations and there's nothing to see if they chose to look up your skirt unannounced.

 

Personally, I like to keep the doors on my house closed, if not locked.

[Mattd]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

I agree with your sentiment KK but let's take an extreme example which perhaps may turn out to be not so extreme after all!

 

Thai Revenue says that income remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned is taxable, this law is however not currently enforced. If all of a sudden there's a live conduit between UK and Thai Revenue with a wire that has your ID number on both ends, how would you feel if you received a retrospective tax bill from Thai Revenue for UK earned income that they knew you had remitted here - income that was tax free courtesy of the personal allowance in the UK but UK Revenue had told them the year it was earned?

In the situation you describe the tax liability for somebody under 65 and if the money remitted were taxed as personal income, then it would not amount too much in reality, though agree it is better in your pocket than the Thai Government's!

 

Example: UK Personal allowance - 11,500 GBP = Approx. 498,000 THB

Thai personal allowance - 60,000 THB, if married to a Thai an additional 60,000 THB and an additional 30,000 THB per child up to 3 max.

So a guy married to a Thai with one child would receive a minimum personal allowance of 150,000 THB, leaving 348,000 THB taxable income.

The first 150,000 THB of earning is taxed at 0%, 150,001 - 300,000 THB = 5% & 300,001 - 500,000 =10%

Therefore the tax liability for the above would be 12,300 THB.

Married with 2 children it would be 9,300 THB

Married with 3 children it would be 6,300 THB

Married with no children it would be 15,300 THB

For a single guy with no children it would be 21,300 THB

 

Enforcing it would be a different matter!

[simoh1490]

Just now, Mattd said:

In the situation you describe the tax liability for somebody under 65 and if the money remitted were taxed as personal income, then it would not amount too much in reality, though agree it is better in your pocket than the Thai Government's!

 

Example: UK Personal allowance - 11,500 GBP = Approx. 498,000 THB

Thai personal allowance - 60,000 THB, if married to a Thai an additional 60,000 THB and an additional 30,000 THB per child up to 3 max.

So a guy married to a Thai with one child would receive a minimum personal allowance of 150,000 THB, leaving 348,000 THB taxable income.

The first 150,000 THB of earning is taxed at 0%, 150,001 - 300,000 THB = 5% & 300,001 - 500,000 =10%

Therefore the tax liability for the above would be 12,300 THB.

Married with 2 children it would be 9,300 THB

Married with 3 children it would be 6,300 THB

Married with no children it would be 15,300 THB

For a single guy with no children it would be 21,300 THB

 

Enforcing it would be a different matter!

And when the UK government withdraws the Personal Allowance from expats?

 

Many expats already use the nil rate band in Thailand to reclaim the tax on their savings deposits which is entirely within the rules. But if UK earnings are going to be taxed in Thailand, and the UK PA is removed, it will be a significant hit to the income of many expat pensioners. People will argue of course that those are the rules so the pensioner must pay his tax regardless and they would be right. But the rules also state that expats should inform the UK authorities they have left the UK so that NHS eligibility and state pension increases can be cancelled and that also would be right, in practice however only very few do so! Yes I know, two wrongs don't make a right but for the moment this is more about convention than rules.

[Mattd]

8 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

And when the UK government withdraws the Personal Allowance from expats?

 

Many expats already use the nil rate band in Thailand to reclaim the tax on their savings deposits which is entirely within the rules. But if UK earnings are going to be taxed in Thailand, and the UK PA is removed, it will be a significant hit to the income of many expat pensioners. People will argue of course that those are the rules so the pensioner must pay his tax regardless and they would be right. But the rules also state that expats should inform the UK authorities they have left the UK so that NHS eligibility and state pension increases can be cancelled and that also would be right, in practice however only very few do so! Yes I know, two wrongs don't make a right but for the moment this is more about convention than rules.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused, are you saying that IF the UK said that anybody overseas is not allowed a personal allowance?

If so my figures would still stand, as the double taxation treaty means that you could not get taxed twice on the same income.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Mattd

[rockingrobin]

12 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

And when the UK government withdraws the Personal Allowance from expats?

 

Many expats already use the nil rate band in Thailand to reclaim the tax on their savings deposits which is entirely within the rules. But if UK earnings are going to be taxed in Thailand, and the UK PA is removed, it will be a significant hit to the income of many expat pensioners. People will argue of course that those are the rules so the pensioner must pay his tax regardless and they would be right. But the rules also state that expats should inform the UK authorities they have left the UK so that NHS eligibility and state pension increases can be cancelled and that also would be right, in practice however only very few do so! Yes I know, two wrongs don't make a right but for the moment this is more about convention than rules.

There is a double taxation treaty in force between the UK and Thailand

[MartinL]

I received a letter on this subject from Royal London insurance re. a life insurance policy I have with them. It, too, asked for a local TIN in addition to my UK NINo. 

 

I just said that, as far as Thailand was concerned, I wasn't liable for income tax. That was accepted with no problems.

 

Some time ago, in one of the many threads re. Pink Cards, I seem to remember reading that the 13-digit ID No. allocated to a foreigner with a PC could be used as a TIN in the same way that Thai-nationals do.

[rwdrwdrwd]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

A noose that apparently only fits round the neck of those who are not currently paying all the taxes they should be paying.

 

Personally I dont care what information is provided to any country anywhere as I have evaded no taxes in any country, and there is nothing I can be billed for anywhere.

I wish you luck in avoiding the bureaucracy and screw-ups once your data is in the various systems, particularly ones where the onus is placed upon you to spent time, energy and money to prove them incorrect. For that reason alone I won't give *any* government organisation anything other than I am legally obliged to.

Edited November 15, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[orientalist]

30 minutes ago, MartinL said:

I received a letter on this subject from Royal London insurance re. a life insurance policy I have with them. It, too, asked for a local TIN in addition to my UK NINo. 

 

I just said that, as far as Thailand was concerned, I wasn't liable for income tax. That was accepted with no problems.

 

Some time ago, in one of the many threads re. Pink Cards, I seem to remember reading that the 13-digit ID No. allocated to a foreigner with a PC could be used as a TIN in the same way that Thai-nationals do.

 

I think the situation is that foreigners with a Thai ID can or should use it as tax ID. But I've had a Thai ID for over a decade and they have never changed my tax ID. I assume this is because they don't know I have a Thai ID unless I tell them.

[orientalist]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I agree with your sentiment KK but let's take an extreme example which perhaps may turn out to be not so extreme after all!

 

Thai Revenue says that income remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned is taxable, this law is however not currently enforced. If all of a sudden there's a live conduit between UK and Thai Revenue with a wire that has your ID number on both ends, how would you feel if you received a retrospective tax bill from Thai Revenue for UK earned income that they knew you had remitted here - income that was tax free courtesy of the personal allowance in the UK but UK Revenue had told them the year it was earned?

 

The mystery is that many retirees here declare their overseas pensions to Immigration as a prerequisite for getting the visa. That information is available but the Revenue Dept have never acted on it. Perhaps they feel that with all the double taxation treaties in place it would be too much hassle.

 

My main worry is that the rule about overseas income is actually an unwritten guideline to easily determine what is "savings" and what is "income." At some point in the future the Revenue Dept may decide that pensions not remitted in the year they are received are in fact "income." 

[NanLaew]

Since it seems that a Thai's ID card number is used for their Thai TIN, does anyone know if the foreigners ID number in the yellow tibian banh book can be used as the foreigners Thai TIN? AFAIK it's in the same format as the Thai ID as used on their ID cards and blue tibian bahn books.

[KittenKong]

10 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I agree with your sentiment KK but let's take an extreme example which perhaps may turn out to be not so extreme after all!

 

Thai Revenue says that income remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned is taxable, this law is however not currently enforced. If all of a sudden there's a live conduit between UK and Thai Revenue with a wire that has your ID number on both ends, how would you feel if you received a retrospective tax bill from Thai Revenue for UK earned income that they knew you had remitted here - income that was tax free courtesy of the personal allowance in the UK but UK Revenue had told them the year it was earned?

 

I follow the rules and I arrange my affairs so that nothing comes to Thailand in the same year as I originally received it. So short of some retroactive change to the rules here (which I would not put past them) I should have no surprises.

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

I wish you luck in avoiding the bureaucracy and screw-ups once your data is in the various systems, particularly ones where the onus is placed upon you to spent time, energy and money to prove them incorrect.

 

So far I've had no problems. But I'm not saying that problems are impossible.

[Mattd]

21 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Since it seems that a Thai's ID card number is used for their Thai TIN, does anyone know if the foreigners ID number in the yellow tibian banh book can be used as the foreigners Thai TIN? AFAIK it's in the same format as the Thai ID as used on their ID cards and blue tibian bahn books.

As far as I can see then no, a Foreigner would be assigned a TIN based on producing a passport, although in theory there is no reason at all why they could not use the ID attached to a yellow book / pink ID.

I'll provide a link that explains this in another post soon.

I wonder how they do this with those who have PR.

[simoh1490]

Getting a TIN from the Revenue is very simple and quick, you need to show your passport to confirm your visa status and ten minutes later the TIN is issued - the TIN number bears no relationship to the passport number and I don't have a tabien bahn or pink ID card.

[Mattd]

6 hours ago, orientalist said:

My main worry is that the rule about overseas income is actually an unwritten guideline to easily determine what is "savings" and what is "income." At some point in the future the Revenue Dept may decide that pensions not remitted in the year they are received are in fact "income." 

Actually, looking further in to this, then it may be that advice regarding being taxed only for the year it was earned may not be 100% correct, it would depend on how the revenue department wanted to assess this, here is the link to snap shot of the revenue code section that is applicable, whereby it states specifically that this applies for a non-resident tax payer, i.e. somebody who is resident for less than 180 days per year (number 8. of the non taxable income list examples)

 

It also covers the TIN and how it is allocated.

 

http://www.bia.co.th/016.html

[simoh1490]

Some inputs:

 

Here's the actual Thai tax code in English: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37748.0.html

 

Regarding pensions: by means of tax treaties, the UK and US both disallow other countries from taxing Social Security and State Pension payments.

 

Number 8 on the link: refers to non-taxable income by virtue of non-residency (<180 days). 

[rockingrobin]

32 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Some inputs:

 

Here's the actual Thai tax code in English: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37748.0.html

 

Regarding pensions: by means of tax treaties, the UK and US both disallow other countries from taxing Social Security and State Pension payments.

 

Number 8 on the link: refers to non-taxable income by virtue of non-residency (<180 days). 

In the link you provided , does anybody know what is meant by special pension , as described under section 42  , sub section (12)

[KittenKong]

13 hours ago, Mattd said:

Actually, looking further in to this, then it may be that advice regarding being taxed only for the year it was earned may not be 100% correct, it would depend on how the revenue department wanted to assess this, here is the link to snap shot of the revenue code section that is applicable, whereby it states specifically that this applies for a non-resident tax payer, i.e. somebody who is resident for less than 180 days per year (number 8. of the non taxable income list examples)

 

I believe the relevant section is this:

 

"Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand."

 

As usual in Thailand, the text is badly phrased and vague, but I think it means what I said.

 

I would also point out that the second paragraph of section 41 appears to specifically exclude dividend and investment income from the list of taxable income sources given in section 40, though whether this is by accident or design or incompetence is not clear.