On 10/13/2017 at 4:19 PM, craigt3365 said:

If I remember correctly, it was partisan bickering that caused many of the problems.  Health care is a tough thing to get right.  Remember Hillarycare? LOL.  They can't get it right after all these years.  They should all be fired.

The Republicans aren't trying to get healthcare "right."  Their goal is to lower taxes on the rich.  Period.  Since Obamacare raised some taxes on the rich, they are opposed to it.  Rich people don't need health insurance.

Just now, Boon Mee said:

Return health care to the free marketplace and get Government out.

Single-payer is what the Democrats are striving for and that's sheer folly. 

"Socialism is a great form of government until you run out of other people's money"

-- Lady Thatcher

That works if everyone has a decent income and hospitals/pharma/insurance aren't overly greedy.  None of those factors are extant in the US now.  

 

Here are some of the reasons there's health care-for-all in more civilized countries (than the US)

 

>>>  The rich aren't opposed to helping out the poor, and therefore pay a fair share of taxes toward that end.  Note:  Trump and many of his billionaire buddies are adept at avoiding taxes.

>>>  Health care professionals plus pharma don't charge exorbitant amounts.  

   

Also: Americans are getting sicker and fatter with each passing year.  

 

24 minutes ago, Boon Mee said:

Return health care to the free marketplace and get Government out.

That's fine if no one cares about 22-32 million people who then lose their healthcare insurance because of lack of affordability to their needs. Trump for one doesn't care - he can independently afford his healthcare.

A pure capitalistic society doesn't care about anyone in the middle class and below except the degree to which they feed wealth to the nation's richest people - the so-called 1%. Government participation aids in wealth redistribution to provide affordable healthcare insurance to anyone in the middle class and below.

Universal is the only answer. 

But it might take another 50 years.

Not sure if trump's evil disruption that is literally going to kill many Americans will hasten that or retard that.

But the American people already agree access to health care is a civil right. Obama did that. 

But making that happen practically and politically, that's another story. 

15 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

Return health care to the free marketplace and get Government out.

Single-payer is what the Democrats are striving for and that's sheer folly. 

"Socialism is a great form of government until you run out of other people's money"

-- Lady Thatcher

What a nice deflection.  Universal health care is not the hallmark of a socialist government, it is one component of a good government.   Perhaps we should do away with public education, after all it's pretty socialistic?   Maybe we should do away with the military and the police as well, as they are pretty socialistic.   

 

Free markets don't work for everything; health care is one of them.   

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Universal is the only answer.  But it might take another 50 years.

Not sure if trump's evil disruption that is literally going to kill many Americans will hasten that or retard that.  But the American people already agree access to health care is a civil right. Obama did that.  But making that happen practically and politically, that's another story. 

I mostly agree.  However, in 50 years, Americans will be fatter and sicker, on average.  Health care providers and pharma are unlikely to be less greedy.  

With a sicker population, and costs continually going up, it's looking less likely that Universal h.c. will be viable in the US.   It gets even more unlikely if/when taxes are lowered for the rich and corporations.  .....and when the portion of gov't spending on military and paying the nat'l debt keep going up.

 

It also doesn't help the equation, when religious/church groups and cults (like Scientology and Jehova's Witness) are 100% tax-exempt.

 

 

Edited October 16, 20178 yr by boomerangutang

8 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

It also doesn't help the equation, when religious/church groups and cults (like Scientology and Jehova's Witness) are 100% tax-exempt.

 

 

To say nothing of the Catholic Church, the Baptists, etc.

55 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Universal is the only answer.  But it might take another 50 years.

Not sure if trump's evil disruption that is literally going to kill many Americans will hasten that or retard that.  But the American people already agree access to health care is a civil right. Obama did that.  But making that happen practically and politically, that's another story. 

I mostly agree.  However, in 50 years, Americans will be fatter and sicker, on average.  Health care providers and pharma are unlikely to be less greedy.  

With a sicker population, and costs continually going up, it's looking less likely that Universal h.c. will be viable in the US.   It gets even more unlikely if/when taxes are lowered for the rich and corporations.  .....and when the portion of gov't spending on military and paying the nat'l debt keep going up.

 

It also doesn't help the equation, when religious/church groups and cults (like Scientology and Jehova's Witness) are 100% tax-exempt.

 

To say nothing of political super PACs, trusts, charitable foundations, and the ultimate disgrace - 258 profitable Fortune 500 companies that paid an average effective federal income tax rate of 21.2% vs the 35% tax bracket and 18 of the Fortune 500 that avoided paying any federal income tax.

http://www.investopedia.com/news/how-fortune-500-companies-avoid-paying-income-tax/

Funding of the American government lies entirely on the middle class.
 

On 10/13/2017 at 8:47 AM, OMGImInPattaya said:

Funny I recall hearing the same silly arguments before the election too...how did that turn out?

Yeah, it turned out to be the world's worst nightmare.

An off topic post about healthcare in UK has been removed

Trump Signals Opposition to Bipartisan Health-Care Deal

President’s tweet comes after he called Sen. Alexander to voice encouragement

WASHINGTON—A bipartisan proposal on health care teetered Wednesday after President Donald Trump withdrew his support and conservative GOP lawmakers said it didn’t do enough to roll back the Affordable Care Act.

The two senators behind the deal, Lamar Alexander (R., Tenn.) and Patty Murray (D., Wash.), remained publicly upbeat about the bill’s prospects despite the president’s conflicting statements.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-signals-opposition-to-bipartisan-health-care-deal-1508338881

33 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

despite the president’s conflicting statements.

Trump told Alexander in phone calls that he supported the negotiations and wanted a final deal. Then explicitly supported the deal in his news conference. Conservative Republicans reacted and Trump reverses himself and blasts the deal.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/18/politics/health-care-state-of-play/index.html

Looks like Trumpcare (Trump - it's no longer called Obamacare) has been aborted.

On 10/15/2017 at 9:27 PM, Srikcir said:

Government participation aids in wealth redistribution to provide affordable healthcare insurance to anyone in the middle class and below.

Not quite. Great private healthcare in provided to millions of people employed by the local, state, and federal governments. This coverage is also carried into retirement. Union members typically have good healthcare coverage, as well, as people employed at many large corporations. This benefit is also not taxable income. There is no 1%. The system favors a relatively large entitled class who are mostly democratic. They will not give on this entitlement at the expense of universal healthcare for all.

1 hour ago, Kim1950 said:

Not quite. Great private healthcare in provided to millions of people employed by the local, state, and federal governments. This coverage is also carried into retirement. Union members typically have good healthcare coverage, as well, as people employed at many large corporations. This benefit is also not taxable income. There is no 1%. The system favors a relatively large entitled class who are mostly democratic. They will not give on this entitlement at the expense of universal healthcare for all.

"Great private healthcare'?" Maybe once, not so much anymore. Co-pays are increasing. as are deductibles

http://time.com/money/4044394/average-health-deductible-premium/

http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/10/23/while-obamacare-premiums-rise-employer-based-health-plans-shift-to-higher-deductibles/

And how many plans offer serious dental coverage?

Edited October 19, 20178 yr by ilostmypassword