SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And which is certain to be compensated by additional trade with non-EU countries. Does Krugman factor this into his model? Anyway, I hope you don't think I'm being ignorant, but I'm off to bed now. Back tomorrow.

No, he wouldn never factor that into his model because it's too obvious. Of course he factors those things into his models. Just not the ludicrously optimistic hopes of Brexiters. You may have just read Wilber Ross, commerce secretary of the USA, tell Britain off about trade. That should have been one fantasy of the brexiteers punctured

[rufanuf]

12 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

You know, it's no problem if you criticise me or the opinion of others writing about facts, since the exodus of specialised nurses and construction people is a fact and it remains to be seen if Brits are able to fill the gaps.

 

The problem is that you don't come up with facts, proving the opposite.

 

 

the facts are the same LaoPo. Its our interpretation of them that are different. You drink the mass opinion kool aid about these facts that governments the world over want you to buy into. I don't. All this nonsense about the sky falling becuase theres unfilled jobs....is just nonsense, along with the idea that a shrinking "economy" is a disaster. The only way humanity is going to sort out its current issues is WITH a shrinking economy...not an expanding one. That I am afraid is the FACT everyone wants to ignore.

[rufanuf]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Thank you for admitting that the Brexit group doesn't have such a model and in fact doesn't have a clue what one might look like until some unspecified point in the future and that the whole thing is a massive leap into the economic unknown.

 

Perhaps for you the vote was about sovereignty,  aka not being told what to do by another political body. For others it was about being able to spend an additional £350 million a week on the NHS and about reducing immigration, cough cough!

 

See below the thread I mentioned earlier, I'll go through it and pull out the posts I referred to, bring back memories?

 

 

I know. Isn't it exciting! A once proud nation battered into submission by 40 years of outside rule, venturing out into the big wide world to see if it can make its way on its own again...what a wonderful accomplishment for our parents the EU...who taught us how to be independant, and stand on our own two feet. How to be honest strong and decent. Thank you grandfather politicians for the wisdom you have shown as you nurtured us to this point in our lives where we can be an adult in an adult world. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Edited November 8, 2017 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

9 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

You're not answering the questions.

There IS already a shortage in all kinds of jobs and especially also in healthcare.

 

European nurses and midwifes are leaving the UK*

"The NHS is already short of an estimated 40,000 nurses across the UK and 3,500 midwives in England alone."

 

I think the shortage is much larger than published.

As an example: there's a dramatic shortage of 125.000 nurses in The Netherlands and that's a small country in comparison with the UK wth some 17 million citizens versus 65 million for the UK.

 

If this is going on, the UK will face dramatic shortages of staff in all kinds of professions.

 

* https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Brexit+briefing+2016&utm_term=251214&subid=19374309&CMP=ema-3239

Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?

Edited November 8, 2017 by rufanuf

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?

This would be funny if it weren't all too likely that the Tories will adopt this line of defense.

[rufanuf]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

This would be funny if it weren't all too likely that the Tories will adopt this line of defense.

Its not suppose to be funny. It's suppose to make people open their eyes. Thinking would be useful..if more people did it. Especially those in power.

[ilostmypassword]

9 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

You're not answering the questions.

There IS already a shortage in all kinds of jobs and especially also in healthcare.

 

European nurses and midwifes are leaving the UK*

"The NHS is already short of an estimated 40,000 nurses across the UK and 3,500 midwives in England alone."

 

I think the shortage is much larger than published.

As an example: there's a dramatic shortage of 125.000 nurses in The Netherlands and that's a small country in comparison with the UK wth some 17 million citizens versus 65 million for the UK.

 

If this is going on, the UK will face dramatic shortages of staff in all kinds of professions.

 

* https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Brexit+briefing+2016&utm_term=251214&subid=19374309&CMP=ema-3239

But if that happens than pay will rise to attract people to that line of work. And if that doesn't work, they'll have to relax the rules. A lot. And remember, they're goig to have 350 million pounds extra per week in the NHS to pay for those workers.

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Its not suppose to be funny. It's suppose to make people open their eyes. Thinking would be useful..if more people did it. Especially those in power.

So you're saying Brexit is a bad thing?

[rufanuf]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

But if that happens than pay will rise to attract people to that line of work. And if that doesn't work, they'll have to relax the rules. A lot. And remember, they're goig to have 350 million pounds extra per week in the NHS to pay for those workers.

 

 

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

So you're saying Brexit is a bad thing?

Now that is funny!

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, rufanuf said:

 

 

Now that is funny!

I actually don't understand. Are you saying that Brexit will create a big problem in the NHS? I assumed you were joking when you wrote  "Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?" You mean you weren't joking?

[rufanuf]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

I actually don't understand. Are you saying that Brexit will create a big problem in the NHS? I assumed you were joking when you wrote  "Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?" You mean you weren't joking?

My point is EVERYONE's focused on the worng issues. Obsessed with GDP, job losses, so on and so forth when the elephant in the room gets constantly ignored. 7Billion plus people on the planet and counting, destroying everything at a rate of knots never seen in the history of mankind, and people are worried about some people migrating from one place to another, or simple mathmatics that talks about how much individual human units in different parts of the world destroy (oh sorry the government call it produce!)...the list of flawed logic on the part of governments never ends.

 

Large human organisations like the EU for example would not need to eb the size they are to "compete" if there was not so many people competing!

 

There is no labour shortage but there is a human over supply...yet everyone just carry's on talking the same old b*******s. SHow me a government that starts with the simply policy of "how many people can our country sustain?" and set policies towards that goal and they would get my vote immediately.

[vogie]

18 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?

You are very correct what you say but it is very difficult for some people who know everything to accept this. Some people think by throwing endless amounts of money into the national health is the answer, never a mention of running the nat health more efficiently. There was a nhs doctor on the news last night saying exactly the same thing and also mentioning that some people should take more responsibility for their own health and not burden the health service with their trivial problems.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

I really doubt that since the UK does not conduct most of its trade with the EU now.

Er...where did that come from?

[rufanuf]

Just now, vogie said:

You are very correct what you say but it is very difficult for some people who know everything to accept this. Some people think by throwing endless amounts of money into the national health is the answer, never a mention of running the nat health more efficiently. There was a nhs doctor on the news last night saying exactly the same thing and also mentioning that some people should take more responsibility for their own health and not burden the health service with their trivial problems.

Forget the NHS, running a country more responsibly would be a start.

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Er...where did that come from?

Something called arithmetic which is a branch of mathematics.

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

My point is EVERYONE's focused on the worng issues. Obsessed with GDP, job losses, so on and so forth when the elephant in the room gets constantly ignored. 7Billion plus people on the planet and counting, destroying everything at a rate of knots never seen in the history of mankind, and people are worried about some people migrating from one place to another, or simple mathmatics that talks about how much individual human units in different parts of the world destroy (oh sorry the government call it produce!)...the list of flawed logic on the part of governments never ends.

 

Large human organisations like the EU for example would not need to eb the size they are to "compete" if there was not so many people competing!

 

There is no labour shortage but there is a human over supply...yet everyone just carry's on talking the same old b*******s. SHow me a government that starts with the simply policy of "how many people can our country sustain?" and set policies towards that goal and they would get my vote immediately.

Oh, so that's what "Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?" means. How could I have missed that?

[rufanuf]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Oh, so that's what "Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?" means. How could I have missed that?

Perhaps you want to run to be a politician. That would explain it.

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Perhaps you want to run to be a politician. That would explain it.

Actually a more apt profession would be "mind-reader"

Edited November 8, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[rufanuf]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually a more profession would be "mind-reader"

Well yes they are equally useless.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Something called arithmetic which is a branch of mathematics.

 

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Something called arithmetic which is a branch of mathematics.

I really doubt that since the UK does not conduct most of its trade with the EU now.

 

Very smart! Except that UK trade with the EU still accounts for 45% of total trade, on a global basis.

That 45% is with with a bloc which only has 7% of the world's population.

There is no UK trade with any other single country close to 45%.

Get some new batteries for your calculator.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, nauseus said:

 

I really doubt that since the UK does not conduct most of its trade with the EU now.

 

Very smart! Except that UK trade with the EU still accounts for 45% of total trade, on a global basis.

That 45% is with with a bloc which only has 7% of the world's population.

There is no UK trade with any other single country close to 45%.

Get some new batteries for your calculator.

I think that you should look up the meaning of "most. 

 100%-45%=55%. 55%>45%,

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I think that you should look up the meaning of "most. 

 100%-45%=55%. 55%>45%,

As long as you look up "relative" and "perspective".

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

My point is EVERYONE's focused on the worng issues. Obsessed with GDP, job losses, so on and so forth when the elephant in the room gets constantly ignored. 7Billion plus people on the planet and counting, destroying everything at a rate of knots never seen in the history of mankind, and people are worried about some people migrating from one place to another, or simple mathmatics that talks about how much individual human units in different parts of the world destroy (oh sorry the government call it produce!)...the list of flawed logic on the part of governments never ends.

 

Large human organisations like the EU for example would not need to eb the size they are to "compete" if there was not so many people competing!

 

There is no labour shortage but there is a human over supply...yet everyone just carry's on talking the same old b*******s. SHow me a government that starts with the simply policy of "how many people can our country sustain?" and set policies towards that goal and they would get my vote immediately.

Brexit is bad but I wouldn't suggest it's a Malthusian Catastrophe ?

[LaoPo]

2 hours ago, rufanuf said:

Is it a shortage? Or are there too many patients?

Both 

[LaoPo]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

But if that happens than pay will rise to attract people to that line of work. And if that doesn't work, they'll have to relax the rules. A lot. And remember, they're goig to have 350 million pounds extra per week in the NHS to pay for those workers.

 

GBP 350 MILLION per week extra to the NHS; you believe that lie ?

And, where would those highly qualified nurses have to come from?

 

I read an article in The Times where they said that the only way out of this crisis is to have those nurses come from India.

Well, that's an old part of the British empire so that's the easiest way since training enough new British nurses would be an impossible target.

 

SO: the borders ARE going to be opened further; wasn't that one of the major ideas behind Brexit..? 

Edited November 8, 2017 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

2 hours ago, rufanuf said:

SHow me a government that starts with the simply policy of "how many people can our country sustain?" and set policies towards that goal and they would get my vote immediately.

SO: your vote goes to China?

 

China implemented the one-child policy back in 1979 and is abandoning the system now which is already in place; many families have now 2 or even more children.

 

The one-child policy didn't work on the long run since there's now an enormous surplus of young males NOT able to find a spouse.

Its a dramatic situation with a surplus of some 33 million (!) young males.

 

Could you imagine such numbers in the UK or the EU?

And in case you want to have an equal decline in birth rates....go tell the countries which have a young population; There are dozens of them, mainly in India, Pakistan, Middle East, Africa and so on,

 

But NOT in Europe!

 

 

[dundee48]

9 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Please do NOT quote the Grauinad,

Completely biased rubbish.

I don't quote the Express or Mail.

 

Hahaha-90%of remoaners "facts and figures"come from that rag.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

No, he wouldn never factor that into his model because it's too obvious. Of course he factors those things into his models. Just not the ludicrously optimistic hopes of Brexiters. You may have just read Wilber Ross, commerce secretary of the USA, tell Britain off about trade. That should have been one fantasy of the brexiteers punctured

 

It's just that when I read his analysis, it appeared to be based on how existing trade relationships would be affected. Could you provide a link to his reasoning on new, post brexit trade? You seem to be making assumptions on this.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, LaoPo said:

 

GBP 350 MILLION per week extra to the NHS; you believe that lie ?

And, where would those highly qualified nurses have to come from?

 

I read an article in The Times where they said that the only way out of this crisis is to have those nurses come from India.

Well, that's an old part of the British empire so that's the easiest way since training enough new British nurses would be an impossible target.

 

SO: the borders ARE going to be opened further; wasn't that one of the major ideas behind Brexit..? 

 

Controlled, targetted immigration, my man. No need to get your knickers in a twist.

[LaoPo]

51 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Controlled, targetted immigration, my man. No need to get your knickers in a twist.

 

Shall we wait for the Brexit deal first before you make any assumptions?.....unless you've inside info from Boris of course. Not that he will survive for much longer, the same as Mrs May... 

 

I've never seen a government that's so divided as the present Tories.