Lifan GY200 ------> Honda CRF250L

[VocalNeal]

On 10/26/2017 at 7:31 AM, AllanB said:

the engine is labouring, not good when running-in

Wrong Allan. read up on the new theory about motorcycle break-in, although we maybe too late?  High torque low speed uphill runs for 20 mins let it cool etc..

 

Honda has 50% more torque than the Lifan at only 500 rpm more. Also has a six speed box vs 5. Honda final drive is 14/40 don't know about Lifan. 

 

What speed does you old Lifan do in 1st gear? Then try the same for the Honda. Same in second etc. Gear the Honda to the same as the Lifan? Say 14/42?

 

Lifan tops out about 120 kph. I'm sure the Honda is faster?  So can be geared down. 

 

Tape over the tach and ride by feel?

Edited October 27, 2017 by VocalNeal

[thaiguzzi]

3 hours ago, AllanB said:

Ouch! Sounding "terrible" is not good news and that is how I would sum mine up, and yes "running dry". This thread was about a comparison and the engine on the 48k baht Lifan sounds great, just as I would expect and pulls in almost any gear from 1000rpm (est). The Lifan is only 200cc, with, on paper, 60% of the power of the CRF, so I thought I knew what to expect.

 

I was just in the throws of returning it to the dealership this morning and was worried they would take it apart and make it worse, like the jeweller did with my new Seiko watch, when they fixed it with Superglue.

 

I have to say I am gutted with disappointment and wished I heard these stories a few weeks ago. To me biking is about fun and right now this bike is anything but fun.

 

I think people are extremely reticent to criticise Japanese stuff on these forums, in fear of ridicule and at the same time feel it necessary to slag off anything Chinese, to demonstrate their "expertise". I prefer to call a spade a spade. 

 

Not sure I can live with this, it is truly a depressing bike to ride....................but hope this is a lesson to anyone else thinking of buying a CRF250.

 

Maybe this a reason they fit these noisy exhausts, to mask the sound of the engine? 

Uh oh. I can see another S/H CRF250L joining the plethora, nay, legions, of second hand used (as new) CRF250L's on B&S.....

[thaiguzzi]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Wrong Allan. read up on the new theory about motorcycle break-in, although we maybe too late?  High torque low speed uphill runs for 20 mins let it cool etc..

 

Honda has 50% more torque than the Lifan at only 500 rpm more. Also has a six speed box vs 5. Honda final drive is 14/40 don't know about Lifan. 

 

What speed does you old Lifan do in 1st gear? Then try the same for the Honda. Same in second etc. Gear the Honda to the same as the Lifan? Say 14/42?

 

Lifan tops out about 120 kph. I'm sure the Honda is faster?  So can be geared down. 

 

Tape over the tach and ride by feel?

Not in any way or form an expert on these bikes (or any - cough - Hondas), but I have read and seen and heard that one of the first mods owners do is drop the front sprkt to 13T to lower the gearing. This saves buying a new, longer chain if fitting a larger rear sprkt for the same purpose.

[VocalNeal]

Yep now you've steered me towards it seems like 13/42 is a common mod.  

 

Quote

 

This morning went for a very quick ride, only 20 miles, all road...my immediate feedback is the response in 5th and 6th is much improved. Lower gears seemed to climb quickly as well, but really what I was most (pleasantly) surprised by is in 6th gear I could climb a hill w/out having to shift to 5th, and I could even accelerate... just last weekend I did a 300 mile trip and believe me, the difference from that experience to today when it comes to 5th and 6th, no comparison.

 

 

just changed to 13, really like it and it cruises pretty damn fast on my hiway to Huahin every weekend, 240 km each way, I cruise at 130kmh, not sure how this compares from before, but think still about 65! My gas mileage has decreased though! 

 

 

Quote

 

In my humble opinion and is not to be mistaken as facts .... 13/42 sprockets are ideal for the street .... 13/45 is better for off road and 13/48's or higher is for aggressive off road.

Gearing is something you really need to decide for yourself and your needs. 

 

All from Thumpertalk.

[AllanB]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Wrong Allan. read up on the new theory about motorcycle break-in, although we maybe too late?  High torque low speed uphill runs for 20 mins let it cool etc..

 

Honda has 50% more torque than the Lifan at only 500 rpm more. Also has a six speed box vs 5. Honda final drive is 14/40 don't know about Lifan. 

 

What speed does you old Lifan do in 1st gear? Then try the same for the Honda. Same in second etc. Gear the Honda to the same as the Lifan? Say 14/42?

 

Lifan tops out about 120 kph. I'm sure the Honda is faster?  So can be geared down. 

 

Tape over the tach and ride by feel?

I actually thought "running in" was a thing of the past, now that surface finishing has improved so much.

 

Listen the Lifan is absolutely not a fast bike, as I have said it is comfortable at no more than 70kph and that suits me, maybe 80 would be nicer. The CRF hits 80kph easily and actually sounds okay up there.

 

I spent most of the last 30 years off-roading in vehicles with the right number of wheels, one in each corner and the 3 secrets to success are momentum, moment, and momentum. This is most easily achieved with grunt, the Lifan has it even 2 up and I can happily plough through anything at 2mph in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. So an old guy with a knackered knee can "just do it", I may turn up as they are serving cheese and crackers, but I not any worse for wear than when I set out.

 

So after getting pissed tonight, I will dust off my disappointment and find a way to live with this, re-gearing after 1,000km, is 42t enough? I only really use 6th on the highway and don't plan on doing that, I have a truck for that.

 

Just read some last minute comments and 48 (20%) sounds a good place to start, I can always get a 45 later and change it without anything else, if I am quick.

 

What are the gear ratios?

[VocalNeal]

http://world.honda.com/CRF250L/spec/

 

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/filemgmt/index.php/61

 

Seems like Lifan has a 17/46 final drive but I cannot find a second source. Only refrenece to a 45T rear sprocket and 2.706:1 

Edited October 27, 2017 by VocalNeal

[AllanB]

8 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

http://world.honda.com/CRF250L/spec/

So 45 would lose me 6th, I think that would be okay for me. 

[VocalNeal]

According to my quick calculations 

2nd/3rd/4th on both bikes is almost identical. 5th on the Lifan is a tad higher than 5th on the Honda.

 

If you go to 13/44 you'll get 6 on honda equal to 5th Lifan and 5/4 and 3 usable with 1 and 2 used for pulling stumps.

 

Leave it the way it is and forget you have 6th?  

 

Stock

Honda 

26.73

16.98

12.60

10.46

8.94

7.27

Stock

Lifan 

24.97

16.97

12.63

10.19

8.66

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by VocalNeal

[AllanB]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

According to my quick calculations 

2nd/3rd/4th on both bikes is almost identical. 5th on the Lifan is a tad higher than 5th on the Honda.

 

If you go to 13/44 you'll get 6 on honda equal to 5th Lifan and 5/4 and 3 usable with 1 and 2 used for pulling stumps.

 

Leave it the way it is and forget you have 6th?  

 

Stock

Honda 

26.73

16.98

12.60

10.46

8.94

7.27

Stock

Lifan 

24.97

16.97

12.63

10.19

8.66

 

Don't really favour dropping 16% of the drive on the chain, causes a lot of extra wear, a bigger driven is much better. When I replaced the Lifan chain with Honda stuff (during my initial upgrade) they used two boxes, had a lot left over.

 

Bike seems better when cold..that's encouraging for a "running in" improvement.

[VocalNeal]

Above are total including primary reduction and chain sprockets

 

[taninthai]

i love riding mine:).....leave the front sprocket alone and go 45 on rear.

[AllanB]

10 hours ago, taninthai said:

i love riding mine:).....leave the front sprocket alone and go 45 on rear.

I think you have it about right there.

 

Rode home last night (alone) and gave it a little welly, got a kick in backside as the revs went up...just like when I rode the CBR250, which has the same motor. 

 

It is a shame they didn't tune it for torque, which, I believe that is Triumph's new philosophy. They have resisted the macho horsepower cockfight and gone for low down torque at the sacrifice of bhp figures. That makes for a more relaxed ride and I would go along with that, especially on soft roads.

 

Changing ratios will help the cause a little, but.........c'est la vie.

[VocalNeal]

^ Your old Lifan has 14Nm at 6500 rpm. Your new Honda has 22Nm at 7000 rpm. Looks like they resisted to me?

 

I think your problem is ride-ability.  On your old Lifan, at lower rpm when you open the throttle the carburettor dumps fuel in and you ride away. On the Honda when you open the throttle at the same RPM the fuel injection system won't dump fuel in as it wants to save the planet, so it runs a bit lean and it doesn't have the same feel until the rpm picks up a bit. 

 

Spend 1200 baht and get one of these cheater boxes. Fools the ECU into adding a bit more fuel http://www.jrmotor.com/jrmotor-racing.html 

Edited October 29, 2017 by VocalNeal

[AllanB]

14 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

^ Your old Lifan has 14Nm at 6500 rpm. Your new Honda has 22Nm at 7000 rpm. Looks like they resisted to me?

 

I think your problem is ride-ability.  On your old Lifan, at lower rpm when you open the throttle the carburettor dumps fuel in and you ride away. On the Honda when you open the throttle at the same RPM the fuel injection system won't dump fuel in as it wants to save the planet, so it runs a bit lean and it doesn't have the same feel until the rpm picks up a bit. 

 

Spend 1200 baht and get one of these cheater boxes. Fools the ECU into adding a bit more fuel http://www.jrmotor.com/jrmotor-racing.html 

The planet doesn't need saving, it is doing just fine, it has survived CO2 levels many times higher than now. Al Gore is a politician <deleted>.

 

What you are saying makes prefect sense in terms of what it feels like........starved. It is trying to eat the cylinder walls gasping for fuel, poor bastard.

 

The Lifan does 120mpg.......the Honda 80... I am told...??

 

May look into that, thanks.

Edited October 29, 2017 by AllanB

[AllanB]

I had my Fiat Multipla remapped and my son his Seat Leon, they went like shit off a shovel and cost us mpg only when thrashed. This torque remapping may be good and swapping the whole ECU means I can swap back.

 

Logic would dictate that I may use a little more fuel at low rpm, but keep out of the high rpm band, so may be more economical. May also account for the Lifan being more economical.

 

Anyone know any more about these? Who uses them? Any downside?

Edited October 29, 2017 by AllanB

[canthai55]

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/forum/351-crf250-lmrally/

[AllanB]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/forum/351-crf250-lmrally/

Is there something on this ECU, couldn't find it?

[canthai55]

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1101596-ejk-settingssuggestionsrecomendations/#comment-11847171

[VocalNeal]

EJK I used to sell them but they didn't take at he time everyone was into Power Commander or...  But yes they work. Even come with recommended settings. The only EJK I have is for a PCX and as that is CVT it has no "acceleration" mode.

 

The Thai cheater box is simpler and cheaper. Unless someone makes a Lambda Emulator for a Honda.

[AllanB]

52 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

EJK I used to sell them but they didn't take at he time everyone was into Power Commander or...  But yes they work. Even come with recommended settings. The only EJK I have is for a PCX and as that is CVT it has no "acceleration" mode.

 

The Thai cheater box is simpler and cheaper. Unless someone makes a Lambda Emulator for a Honda.

Gulp!!! You lost me, just want some low rpm torque in a box?

 

Who wouldn't want that? This is an engine designed for the CBR and isn't really suited to the CRF application, but what do I know?

 

It reminds me of what happened when BMW took over Landrover, they immediately put a fantastic Beama engine in the Rangerover...and it was absolute crap. Indeed I once put a 2.8 litre 6 cylinder Nissan engine in my Rangerover, a complete disaster. The reason for the problems...no low rpm torque.

 

...and I understand the problem here, it is "marketing", everyone is so obsessed by peak bhp, nothing else matters. It is a shame, you cannot image how much fun it is riding off with such dexterity and confidence, with so few basic skills, a fat belly and a gammy leg, it makes me look good. This applies to everything off-tarmac, including stony tracks....and 2 up.

 

It's not that you need to destroy the top end performance as a sacrifice for this.

Edited October 30, 2017 by AllanB

[VocalNeal]

25 minutes ago, AllanB said:

Gulp!!! You lost me, just want some low rpm torque in a box?

The Thai cheater box  Link is a few posts up. You use it for ride-ability it is not magic torque in a box. There is no magic torque in a box.

 

Technically the gearbox is torque in a box as it magnifies the engine torque. As I said put a piece of tape over the tach.

[Happy Grumpy]

23 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Spend 1200 baht and get one of these cheater boxes. Fools the ECU into adding a bit more fuel http://www.jrmotor.com/jrmotor-racing.html 

 

Very interesting.

 

Has anybody used or uses one of these on any bike?

 

Did actually make a little bit of difference that you would have noticed?

 

Any problems down the line after installing it?

 

Thanks. 

[AllanB]

24 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

The Thai cheater box  Link is a few posts up. You use it for ride-ability it is not magic torque in a box. There is no magic torque in a box.

 

Technically the gearbox is torque in a box as it magnifies the engine torque. As I said put a piece of tape over the tach.

Not really mate......anything times nothing is still nothing.

 

May give the cheater box a go, it's only 1200baht and reversible.

[Happy Grumpy]

6 minutes ago, AllanB said:

May give the cheater box a go, it's only 1200baht and reversible.

Let me know how you get on, please.

 

Thanks. 

[VocalNeal]

2 hours ago, AllanB said:

and a gammy leg,

Is it per chance the left leg? If so could this be your reluctance to change gear? What about changing the shifter for a Yamaha Spark one with a "rocker" configuration .(proper rubber black thing on the front, steel plate thingy at the rear) 

 

While you are at the Yamaha dealer get the size and weight of the Filano weghts !

Edited October 30, 2017 by VocalNeal

[AllanB]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Is it per chance the left leg? If so could this be your reluctance to change gear? What about changing the shifter for a Yamaha Spark one with a "rocker" configuration .(proper rubber black thing on the front, steel plate thingy at the rear) 

 

While you are at the Yamaha dealer get the size and weight of the Filano weghts !

It is my left leg and I did such a mod on the Lifan with a welder, about 3 minutes work. But that because it was reluctant to go into neutral when hot and my shoes were soft, hurt my little toes-iwoesies.

 

Don't need it on the CRF and had my leather shoes repaired. "Gammy" is a bit of a strong word, I have arthritis in my knee, one reason I like dirt bikes, I can stand up (just like a-papa) and it strengthens my leg muscles.

[VocalNeal]

http://www.crfsonly.com

[AllanB]

Been looking at the page on these cheater boxes, could figure out what was what, can anyone supply any details in English? What precisely it is supposed to do? 

Edited October 30, 2017 by AllanB

[CMKiwi]

I had one of those things that VocalNeal mentioned...an EJK.  Or Electronic Jet Kit.  It allows you to increase the amount of fuel at different stages ofyour throttle control.

 

ie  Idle/midrange and full throttle.  Did it work?   Yes it was a great mod for the CRF...however the 'clowns' that initially installed it had every range maxd out.  End result was a huge consumption of fuel which is not what I really wanted.  The beauty of the EJK is that its user friendly and you dont need a computer to reset the settings.  A little bit of trial and error and I was one happy chappie

 

I have no eperience with the cheater boxes..perhaps these are just the cheap Thai equivalent?

 

[canthai55]

8 hours ago, CMKiwi said:

an EJK.  Or Electronic Jet Kit.  It allows you to increase the amount of fuel at different stages of your throttle control.

http://www.electronicjetkit.com/EJK-feature-descriptions.asp