New roof advice

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I just looked at YouTube and they have many videos on colorbond roofing flashing and metal roof flashing.
They also show the roof underlay, which I'm not sure got a mention before. Underlay will help prevent leaks into the house.


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Underlay, with a steel roof? I can see underlay with say shingles or similar but not steel sheet roofing. In the UK, houses that use Cotswold stone for the roof covering use a heavy duty bitumen coated tar paper as underlay, it's slung between the eaves in rolls, identical to the way a RB is laid here. The idea in both cases is that if rainwater does penetrate the roof surface it will simply run down the tar paper and exit the roof at the eaves, you could argue that RB serves that same purpose although that is not it's intended usage.

[carlyai]

Underlay, with a steel roof? I can see underlay with say shingles or similar but not steel sheet roofing. In the UK, houses that use Cotswold stone for the roof covering use a heavy duty bitumen coated tar paper as underlay, it's slung between the eaves in rolls, identical to the way a RB is laid here. The idea in both cases is that if rainwater does penetrate the roof surface it will simply run down the tar paper and exit the roof at the eaves, you could argue that RB serves that same purpose although that is not it's intended usage.

I have never installed a colourbond roof, but I just noticed the underlay in the youtube video.

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[grollies]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 I think I have at this point pretty well run to ground every place with Colorbond within a days drive of me.

You checked out the authorised dealers page from their website right?

[carlyai]

Sheryl, there's a huge Global House type store in Rayong, it maybe Global House, but the name Mega springs to mind.

They seem to have everything and close to the colorbond factory I would think.

I had some dealings with them a few years ago. I needed 3 of these special things, they only had 2 but, searched all over Thailand and found another on in Sarin and sent it for me to collect at Roiet, so great customer service....sort of unbelievable.

Maybe it's worth a trip to talk to them about supplies.

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[grollies]

You could always go for bespoke flashings on facias & eves.

 

 

[simoh1490]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks. So if I understand what you are saying, I do need gable and eaves flashing, and also need fascia flashing,  and should have had it in the first place (and possibly as a result, the fascia will prove in need of replacement - it seems to be wood). 

 

Q: Am I understanding rightly that gable flashing, eaves flashing etc are basically  the same thing, just trim on the edges of the roof and named according to where it goes?

 

Q. Do eaves flashing seal the eaves space? Because I thought it was important to leave that for ventilation??? (Hence the long discussion around the plastic wavy thingies to keep out birds and rats).

 

Bluescope does not use the term "valley flashing", this is the sort of thing that is driving me bonkers knowing that I have to order long distance. I think (but not totally sure) that what they term "steel junction flashing" would be the same thing, as I was told this goes wherever 2 different steel sheets meet.

 

I am assuming all these flashings come in different shapes and have to be ordered by the correct name., which is a big worry when ordering from far away -iIf  in fact all these flashings are the same starting material and just applied differently to fit the specific location then less concern...

 

Q: are these flashings different in size and shape to begin with (from the supplier) or is are they just molded to shape onsite out of lengths of metal sheet

 

 Since the contractors who did my original roof applied no flashings except in the valleys and on the roof ridges, I am not sure I can take it for granted my contractors will know to do so unless I specify I want it.  Even today, contractors where I live  do not seem to routinely apply eave,  gable or fascias flashings from what I have seen. In fact, none of the houses around me have them, thisis the first I have heard of the existence of such things.  And I have been in blissful (but perhaps soon to be shattered) innocence of any adverse effect from their lack these past 20 years...

 

 

 

 

At the risk of annoying kwasaki which I don't intend in any way to do, there is a gap I think between the theoretical and the practical in respect of this flashings debate. Yes it's ideal to have all the flashings that are made for every surface but in reality, only very few people use them all. As said the ridge and valley flashings are critical and must be deployed, the end or side flashings are good to have because they prevent blown rain ingress but wood strip will serve equally as well. Ditto for the fascia and eaves flashings, they are all wood strips on most houses, especially older ones and as long as the wood is decent quality, a coat of paint will see them fit for purpose. So if I were you Sheryl I would consider concentrating on the flashings that you absolutely must have and consider setting the others aside. And as for feeling bad about getting multiple suppliers to provide input, I wouldn't worry one iota about that whatsoever.

[wayned]

My 2 cents worth!  Getting the right material and installing flashings correctly will be the biggest problem, especially with valley flashings.  Although this document is not a Bluescope colorbond document, it has a very informative section on flashings and how they need to be installed.  It also says that other than normal ridge flashings all others are made to order due to the different characteristics of the roofing and where it is being installed.

http://professionals.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtArchitecturalDetailingManualRoofWallFlashingJune2016.pdf

Edited November 5, 2017 by wayned

[simoh1490]

Exactly, there's little chance of buying a one size fits all flashing off the shelf.

[cmsally]

The fibre cement board is still available - there is some here in the SCG catalogue

 

SCG roofing material

 

I am sure there are many pros for the metal roofing but personally I would not choose it because of the summer storms here. With a strong sudden wind, if it can find its way underneath , the whole roof can just peel off.

I think you will find the specifications of the original framework is going to dictate what kind of materials you can use as already mentioned.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

My 2 cents worth!  Getting the right material and installing flashings correctly will be the biggest problem, especially with valley flashings.  Although this document is not a Bluescope colorbond document, it has a very informative section on flashings and how they need to be installed.  It also says that other than normal ridge flashings all others are made to order due to the different characteristics of the roofing and where it is being installed.

http://professionals.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtArchitecturalDetailingManualRoofWallFlashingJune2016.pdf

Hence the offer of contact for the chap near Chachengsao who presses his own steel.

[wayned]

You mean like this on our newly built weigh station!  There was nothing wrong with the metal roofing that was made to order, it was still attached to the battens about 1/2 kilometer away.  The problem was the size of the "pilot" holes that were drilled to attach the battens to the rafters.  It's now been redone using steel rafters and battens and new metal roofing.  Whoops!

17 minutes ago, cmsally said:

the whole roof can just peel off.

 

[cmsally]

10 minutes ago, wayned said:

You mean like this on our newly built weigh station!  There was nothing wrong with the metal roofing that was made to order, it was still attached to the battens about 1/2 kilometer away.  The problem was the size of the "pilot" holes that were drilled to attach the battens to the rafters.  It's now been redone using steel rafters and battens and new metal roofing.  Whoops!

 

Top of the class for these perfect examples !!! Of course the roof if correctly installed maybe completely OK. The operative words being "correctly installed" !!

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, carlyai said:

Maybe a visit to the BlueScope factory in Map Ta Phut is required? With your drawings and Cambodian foreman.

Did you get a pic of your roof top from Google Maps? You need mobile reception, then click on your location on the map and zoom in.




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I did but it is pretty blurry. Both when done through google maps and through google earth. Any tips for getting a clearer image?

 

I have been in regular contact with Bluscope. They do not assist in specifications, nor supply materials direct to customers, only refer me to supplier and "ask your contractor". They have given some good generic advise though.  Foreman arrives today and I will know more once I talk to him and show him some of the installation videos.

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, grollies said:

You checked out the authorised dealers page from their website right?

 yes. And called every single one within 8 hour drive of me.

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Underlay, with a steel roof? I can see underlay with say shingles or similar but not steel sheet roofing. In the UK, houses that use Cotswold stone for the roof covering use a heavy duty bitumen coated tar paper as underlay, it's slung between the eaves in rolls, identical to the way a RB is laid here. The idea in both cases is that if rainwater does penetrate the roof surface it will simply run down the tar paper and exit the roof at the eaves, you could argue that RB serves that same purpose although that is not it's intended usage.

We wet through this issue severa; pages back - what you see in the video is PE insulation  and advice of Bluescope dealer was that ti will fall off within a few years and best just to put insulation down on the ceiling so that is my plan.

 

My understanding is that there should be no need for any sort of underlay with Colorbond in terms of preventing leakage -- and I certainly hope that is correct.

[carlyai]

We wet through this issue severa; pages back - what you see in the video is PE insulation  and advice of Bluescope dealer was that ti will fall off within a few years and best just to put insulation down on the ceiling so that is my plan.
 
My understanding is that there should be no need for any sort of underlay with Colorbond in terms of preventing leakage -- and I certainly hope that is correct.

Sorry, missed that.

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[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

My ten cents on this: I strongly suspect that very few flashings in Thailand are standard off the shelf designs, the huge variations in roof design, pitch and angles means a standard design is not possible in many cases. If you visit a shop that makes rainwater gutterings and downpipes you will likely see that they also fabricate flashings, it's the same material in many cases, the shop I use for guttering certainly does. The other thing is that flashing is not rocket science and rolls of zinc oxide coated steel are available very cheaply, any roofer who is also handy can almost certainly fabricate his own in many cases. In terms of importance I think the ridge and valley flashings are extremely important, the side/end flashing are important but the eaves and fascia flashings much less so, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen them installed on a roof here. Also, a cement ridge can be easily substituted for the gable flashing, it is on my house and it works well.

Niether have I, nor do I see nay gable flashing around anywhere and as mentioned my current 20 year old (fibre cement) roof has none of these.

 

What are side/end flashings and where would they go? The side edges of the roofing? Current roof has none???

 

Most importantly - do eaves flashings seal up the eaves???? Because if so I would loose ventilation.

 

Since other than the roof ridge and valleys, these flashings seem all to be optional I will need to give the supplier and contractors direct as to which ones to include, so I really need to know to pros and cons and what these would do.

[carlyai]

I did but it is pretty blurry. Both when done through google maps and through google earth. Any tips for getting a clearer image?
 
I have been in regular contact with Bluscope. They do not assist in specifications, nor supply materials direct to customers, only refer me to supplier and "ask your contractor". They have given some good generic advise though.  Foreman arrives today and I will know more once I talk to him and show him some of the installation videos.

If blurry, then zoom out a bit...sometimes still blurry.



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[Sheryl]

Yes I zoomed in, I zoomed out, still blurry. And tiny. Was hoping there was some special trick I don't know!

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks. So if I understand what you are saying, I do need gable and eaves flashing, and also need fascia flashing,  and should have had it in the first place (and possibly as a result, the fascia will prove in need of replacement - it seems to be wood). 

 

Q: Am I understanding rightly that gable flashing, eaves flashing etc are basically  the same thing, just trim on the edges of the roof and named according to where it goes?

 

Q. Do eaves flashing seal the eaves space? Because I thought it was important to leave that for ventilation??? (Hence the long discussion around the plastic wavy thingies to keep out birds and rats).

 

Bluescope does not use the term "valley flashing", this is the sort of thing that is driving me bonkers knowing that I have to order long distance. I think (but not totally sure) that what they term "steel junction flashing" would be the same thing, as I was told this goes wherever 2 different steel sheets meet.

 

I am assuming all these flashings come in different shapes and have to be ordered by the correct name., which is a big worry when ordering from far away -iIf  in fact all these flashings are the same starting material and just applied differently to fit the specific location then less concern...

 

Q: are these flashings different in size and shape to begin with (from the supplier) or is are they just molded to shape onsite out of lengths of metal sheet

 

 Since the contractors who did my original roof applied no flashings except in the valleys and on the roof ridges, I am not sure I can take it for granted my contractors will know to do so unless I specify I want it.  Even today, contractors where I live  do not seem to routinely apply eave,  gable or fascias flashings from what I have seen. In fact, none of the houses around me have them, thisis the first I have heard of the existence of such things.  And I have been in blissful (but perhaps soon to be shattered) innocence of any adverse effect from their lack these past 20 years...

 

Firstly I understand your confusion not being familiar with roofing and building products, also there's a lot of mis-informed information out there.

As l have posted before there are different name terms used by Thailand for roofing materials just like other countries, l reckon Crossy could confirm this with his own experience and expertise in Electrical engineering..

I know what all of the roof components are and where they go, just from looking and some can be site fabricated or altered also adapted to suit a location so the fixing of some flashing's can be a compromise.

 

Back your questions trying to explain using simple terms :-

gable flashing, eaves flashing,  are they the same ? Yes and No.

gable flashing is a 90% flashing as picture with 1 bend and the turn up on the vertical downside is a drip. The top can be flat but this illustration shows a 2 bend downturn into what's called the pan or valley of the roof sheet.

They can be different shapes but always at 90% and usually stocked by a supplier.

eaves flashing is usually just a 1 bend flashing made to the degree of the roof slope % also with a turn up on the vertical downside.

If suppliers stock comes at 90% this where a site alteration can be made without any affect on performance.  

The eave flashing is positioned against a usable existing fascia and the up-roof top part sits on the eave purlin, the roof sheet is then placed on top with a sealed in-place profile filler piece in-between.

Fascia flashing .  This is optional and a cover flashing or could be used as a fascia replacement if rigid & strong enough, if not addition support may be required.

The fascia flashing can be used in addition if the existing wood or fibre cement fascia is in reasonable condition for remaining.

It can also be used to save on maintenance e.g. re-painting because it can be just wiped from time to time if you wanted. 

It is positioned against the existing fascia board under the eave flashing example of pre-positioning shown in rough sketch.

 

 

Valley Flashing.

This flashing is simple and can simply be made from flat material it basically is a ridge flashing in reverse and is put in place where your protruding gable roof meets the main roof slope.

It should not be a problem for your builder to renew your 4 valley areas.

 

Flashing supply question.

Flashing's are usually stocked in 3 metre or 4 metre lengths there are flat sheets available for site fabrication for say a valley flashing.

Maybe your supplier has there standard profiles for each flashing as showed in previous illustrations or maybe have a different design shape but they will all be fit for the purpose they are intended for. 

 

Lastly on your last paragraph,  it's a good call and really down to what will you except as a acceptable completion.

Some of the renovated or new built buildings in my village use a combination of metal roofs and concrete roof tile ridge and gable products which l will be doing to my own house in the future.

It's something you could consider if your proposed builder is capable as it is aesthetically pleasing IMO.

 

The absence of roof materials on new roof builds can be done and carried out in the same design to your existing roof, what you've witnessed around you is not unusual it's Thai people l find where there finishing is usually done at low cost and build component use efficiency is not a priority to most just practicable.

 

Anyway hope this has helped any more questions no problem.

 

 

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, cmsally said:

The fibre cement board is still available - there is some here in the SCG catalogue

 

SCG roofing material

 

I am sure there are many pros for the metal roofing but personally I would not choose it because of the summer storms here. With a strong sudden wind, if it can find its way underneath , the whole roof can just peel off.

I think you will find the specifications of the original framework is going to dictate what kind of materials you can use as already mentioned.

Now you have me serioulsy worried. I was assurred that colorbond properly applied will not do this?

 

Re fibre cement, the issues are (1) difficulty finding the desired white color (SCG and Oran do not have, only TPI and I haven't yet been able to get in touch with them to verify (called repeatedly, no answers) (2) Bluescope colorbond supposedly much cooler and longer lasting and (3) the newer fibre cement tiles weigh more than my old ones so not 100% sure the roof bueams can support it whereas the Colorbond is lighter so definitely will.

[carlyai]

If blurry, then zoom out a bit...sometimes still blurry.



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This may be of little help: when I went to purchase the Kera tiles I was told the same thing, see the agent...jop...that's it.

But I persisted and got thru a couple of layers if bs and eventually all ended well, with the company reps just too keen to help...Swmbo ( no offence meant) corrected me and we saved B 300 m2 from supplier.

But, QCon were completely unhelpful ( great vids of installation) and when their team arrived after several months waiting and got rotten drunk before the started...and I complained to management, they said they no longer supported that team as they were moonlighting and they would not accept responsibility etc etc. but I got them from the SRC QCon counter.

So you can get the colour bond mob to measure, quote, supply, it's just a matter of getting to the right people.

You know this already.

Why not give grollies contact a call?

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[carlyai]

Yes I zoomed in, I zoomed out, still blurry. And tiny. Was hoping there was some special trick I don't know!

Where's@Crossy when you need him?

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[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, carlyai said:

This may be of little help: when I went to purchase the Kera tiles I was told the same thing, see the agent...jop...that's it.

But I persisted and got thru a couple of layers if bs and eventually all ended well, with the company reps just too keen to help...Swmbo ( no offence meant) corrected me and we saved B 300 m2 from supplier.

But, QCon were completely unhelpful ( great vids of installation) and when their team arrived after several months waiting and got rotten drunk before the started...and I complained to management, they said they no longer supported that team as they were moonlighting and they would not accept responsibility etc etc. but I got them from the SRC QCon counter.

So you can get the colour bond mob to measure, quote, supply, it's just a matter of getting to the right people.

You know this already.

Why not give grollies contact a call?

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The Bluescope company does not have a showroom They only supply to dealers. And I have already been through multiple layers there. they really, truly do not measure, quote or supply.

 

Grollies contact does not carry colorobond.

[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Now you have me serioulsy worried. I was assurred that colorbond properly applied will not do this?

 

Re fibre cement, the issues are (1) difficulty finding the desired white color (SCG and Oran do not have, only TPI and I haven't yet been able to get in touch with them to verify (called repeatedly, no answers) (2) Bluescope colorbond supposedly much cooler and longer lasting and (3) the newer fibre cement tiles weigh more than my old ones so not 100% sure the roof bueams can support it whereas the Colorbond is lighter so definitely will.

There's nothing to worry about, the post your replying too is nonsense please do not pay attention to scaremongering like this if the metal roof is fixed correctly there should be no concern of this kind of rare incident happening in Thailand.

 

[Sheryl]

21 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

The eave flashing is positioned against a usable existing fascia and the up-roof top part sits on the eave purlin, the roof sheet is then placed on top with a sealed in-place profile filler piece in-between.

 

 

This is the first I am hearing of that. What is a profile filler piece? In prior posts the discussion had been that the eaves would be left open for ventilation and plastic wavy thing put in to deter bats etc.

 

You seem to be saying I should seal the eave opening shut with some sort of device? What ios it/where do I get it and why? Won't it interfere with ventilation?

 

If I understand correctly, except of the valley and ridge flashings, which serve to cover seams that would otherwise let in water, all the others are just protecting fascia board, is that right? And can you explain why you think they are essential? I haven't missed not having any of them these past 20 years and none of the houses around me have them. Or is there more to it specific to a steel metal roof?

[simoh1490]

33 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Niether have I, nor do I see nay gable flashing around anywhere and as mentioned my current 20 year old (fibre cement) roof has none of these.

 

What are side/end flashings and where would they go? The side edges of the roofing? Current roof has none???

 

Most importantly - do eaves flashings seal up the eaves???? Because if so I would loose ventilation.

 

Since other than the roof ridge and valleys, these flashings seem all to be optional I will need to give the supplier and contractors direct as to which ones to include, so I really need to know to pros and cons and what these would do.

The side flashing seals the gap between the end wall of the house where it meets the roof. 

 

The eaves flashing does similar to the above, the idea being that vented eaves boards will be used under the overhang hence airflow  is still permitted - BUT you can't install one without the other otherwise you will not have any airflow at all.

[simoh1490]

28 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Now you have me serioulsy worried. I was assurred that colorbond properly applied will not do this?

 

Re fibre cement, the issues are (1) difficulty finding the desired white color (SCG and Oran do not have, only TPI and I haven't yet been able to get in touch with them to verify (called repeatedly, no answers) (2) Bluescope colorbond supposedly much cooler and longer lasting and (3) the newer fibre cement tiles weigh more than my old ones so not 100% sure the roof bueams can support it whereas the Colorbond is lighter so definitely will.

I almost posted against that quote but thought better of it, I think you should keep in mind that a decent level of workmanship will be required but don't be scared off by remote possibilities otherwise, we'll need to talk about the effect of earthquakes and flooding as well!

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

At the risk of annoying kwasaki which I don't intend in any way to do, there is a gap I think between the theoretical and the practical in respect of this flashings debate. Yes it's ideal to have all the flashings that are made for every surface but in reality, only very few people use them all. As said the ridge and valley flashings are critical and must be deployed, the end or side flashings are good to have because they prevent blown rain ingress but wood strip will serve equally as well. Ditto for the fascia and eaves flashings, they are all wood strips on most houses, especially older ones and as long as the wood is decent quality, a coat of paint will see them fit for purpose. So if I were you Sheryl I would consider concentrating on the flashings that you absolutely must have and consider setting the others aside. And as for feeling bad about getting multiple suppliers to provide input, I wouldn't worry one iota about that whatsoever.

Good points and all that's needed is a decision on what's needed.

I think there no wrong in enquiring on all aspects before the final decision is made.

l know what l want. 

[Sheryl]

11 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

The side flashing seals the gap between the end wall of the house where it meets the roof. 

 

The eaves flashing does similar to the above, the idea being that vented eaves boards will be used under the overhang hence airflow  is still permitted - BUT you can't install one without the other otherwise you will not have any airflow at all.

Currently where the wall meets the roof, there is just some sort of beam which I surmise is what you call fascia. There is currently no flashing. The room extends out 1 meter beyond this point. I have had no problem with rain being blown in to date. IS there something different about  metal roof that makes that a risks/necessitates those flashings?

 

So eaves flashings are optional, correct? Also gable flashings?