Australian gold mining company takes legal action against Thailand

[Bob12345]

3 hours ago, hangdonger said:

They wont get anywhere with this, even if they think the law is on their side

Thats what some south american governments thought when they started nationalizing companies. 

Hope Thailand won't go that way as it didn't bring much good to the economy.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

While I am not a fan of toxic leaching and gold miners, it would be interesting to know how many of those people WEAR gold on their neck and around their wrist? I should have been a lawyer. Imagine the scene at the court. To boot, how many have gold crowns (well, we know who has a lot of that, but I mean tooth crowns). LOL Not being an expert, can you actually mine gold "safely" (and be competitive)? The old pan technique probably isn't. LOL

 

I read:

 

Quote

After separating the precious metals from the pregnant solution, the dilute cyanide solution (now called "barren solution") is normally re-used in the heap-leach-process or occasionally sent to an industrial water treatment facility where the residual cyanide is treated and residual metals are removed. In very high rainfall areas, such as the tropics, in some cases there is surplus water that is then discharged to the environment, after treatment, posing possible water pollution if treatment is not properly carried out.

Was that part of the plan approved by the govn't and done? This mine started mining in 2001! Isn't it a bit late to shut things down considering that leaching is not exactly unknown. 

 

Moreover, knowing how farmers in Thailand slash-and-burn fields (with the tacit agreement of industry and govn't which PRETEND to do something about the issue), can all of the people affected (and I guess even the farmers who do the S-&-B LOL) sue them for slowly killing them?

 

Quote

 

The new study, performed by researchers in Brazil in partnership with US colleagues, found that after 72 hours of exposure, over 30% of cultured human lung cells die.

 

The new study is notable because most research to date focusing on air pollution has been based around urban area pollution — which originates primarily from the burning of fossil fuels — even though around 3 billion of the world’s current human inhabitants are regularly exposed to the air pollution from biomass burning of various kinds.

 

 

I repeat: "72 hours of exposure, over 30% of cultured human lung cells die."

 

Incidentally, if you combine the urban pollution and the S-&-B I am sure that the numbers would be even higher!

 

What are the lung cancer rates in those regions affected? The cardio-vacular disease rates?

 

Something could be done about this (but I am not talking about suing now), but one has to actually start talking with farmers (which has been going) and make it worth their while (whatever that is) to stop the practice because they have to feed their children too. Of course, we have corruption in other countries that would make finding a solution for the whole region nearly impossible. But, that is another discussion.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/01/biomass-burning-releases-pollutants-cause-dna-damage

Edited November 3, 2017 by EnlightenedAtheist

[realenglish1]

Another reason why investing in Thailand is a bad idea

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I do care about the health of the people but don;t you think the government would have close the mine if sufficient evidence point to that and 44 will not be needed? 

 

They used Article 44 to close it quickly and stop the pollution. So the mine owners presumably think and can show there wasn't any pollution or they wouldn't be trying arbitration. And conversely the Thai authorities presumably think and can show there was. 

 

It would have been so much easier before. A quick pastry box to the right family and all fixed!

[Spock]

3 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

BS all gold mines pollute the water and the environment in general:

 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=gold+mine+pollution&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=dd779d63af3e4ed2c215348f2431b574&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=gold+mine+pollution&sc=4-19&qs=n&sk=&cvid=dd779d63af3e4ed2c215348f2431b574

Rubbish. Do you think a nanny country like Australia would allow the many gold mines there to operate if this was the case!?

[yellowboat]

4 hours ago, hangdonger said:

They wont get anywhere with this, even if they think the law is on their side

Oh yes they can.  People have beaten the Thai government in court and have been compensated, it just takes time and 800 pound gorillas dressed up as lawyers.  Hopewell Group has won as have others.  Thailand, if slow in paying, can have its governments assets seized abroad.   The happy thing is is that the amateurs running the country cannot just 44 it away.  

[maximillian]

HuAin't Australia big enough for exploitations of all kind ?

The Thai government which signed the concession with the mining company should be sued.

In Suratthani I saw a huge plant from Nestlé water.

Why can't a Thai company get hold of such a resource ?

Why does it have to be a multinational company exploiting such an important resource ?

 

[wombat]

their country their rules.......what a waste of money on legal bullsh1t.

 

[natway09]

Before everybody gets carried away here, take a look at the chemicals involved in extracting gold from hard 

rock mining (I am not talking about alluvial gold  dredging)  & you would not like this mine within a 25 KM

radius of your home

[Sydebolle]

Australia, Article 44? Just made my week 

[farcanell]

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

What about the pollution and the health of the people in the neighborhood?

Different matter, which should have been handled differently, by the environment protection authority equivalent.... yep, the same folk responsible for doing jack about pollution nation wide. 

 

these issues should not be ignored, but they can be overcome

 

admittedly I’m not sure what they are, but Australian gold mining companies operate successfully under very stringent guidelines within Australia... so I’m sure that compliance in these matters, once ordered, would be achievable.

 

then again, being smart people, they are probably already complying to the terms of their operation license... changes to terms would have to be negotiated legally, with proper time frames to implement agreed changes

 

arbitary changes enforced by dictatorial powers are not going to be readily accepted by a multinational corporation, with money to back up their grievances.

 

as a minimum, this could be a precedent setting legal action, and I hope it moves forward without an out of court settlement, because either way, it will set a benchmark that others can use in their business dealings with the kingdom giving some transparency and a buffer to corruption

 

Lol.... please excuse any naivety on my part

 

[Dap]

5 hours ago, hangdonger said:

They wont get anywhere with this, even if they think the law is on their side

I'll wait to see

[garvon]

Pretty serious business this in shutting down a company under any free trade agreement. Not the sort of thing to win friends and influence people. Thailand will pay.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, maximillian said:

HuAin't Australia big enough for exploitations of all kind ?

The Thai government which signed the concession with the mining company should be sued.

In Suratthani I saw a huge plant from Nestlé water.

Why can't a Thai company get hold of such a resource ?

Why does it have to be a multinational company exploiting such an important resource ?

 

Exploitation?

 

how?

 

wasnt a deal made under an agreed treaty?

 

this is called business.... a business whereby shareholders are now being cheated on the return on their investment.

 

the suing should be against the powers that have tried to change the agreement without proper consultation.... not against the powers that made what was deemed to be a fair deal at the time

 

if government mismanagement can be proven, then those Thai people should be hauled up on charges.

Edited November 3, 2017 by farcanell

[scotchonrocks]

As was earlier stated, this will impact on the kingdom's investment rating and if article 44 is used, it will scupper Thailand's chances of maintaining a good sovereign risk reputation.

[Dodgydownunder]

Sorry to say this to my fellow Aussie company directors, but they could have an absolutely cut and dry, open and shut winning case legally,,,,,...but they won't win as Thailand's completely corrupt and zenophobic justice system will never allow the Thai goverrnment to lose face on the world stage.

 

Win or lose, the international exposure for this case will hurt Thailand big time.

[farcanell]

48 minutes ago, natway09 said:

Before everybody gets carried away here, take a look at the chemicals involved in extracting gold from hard 

rock mining (I am not talking about alluvial gold  dredging)  & you would not like this mine within a 25 KM

radius of your home

This is not new... or rather, post agreement information.

 

the parties making the origionally deal would have been aware of this information, and it would have been included in the business plan, accepted by whoever did the accepting, to garner foreign investment at the time

 

the Australian business wouldn’t have gone ahead with this “on a wing and a prayer”... it would all have been laid out

 

this is why they believe that they have a strong case.... loosing the case will reflect poorly on the Thai judicial system, or whatever it’s called.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

They used Article 44 to close it quickly and stop the pollution. So the mine owners presumably think and can show there wasn't any pollution or they wouldn't be trying arbitration. And conversely the Thai authorities presumably think and can show there was. 

 

It would have been so much easier before. A quick pastry box to the right family and all fixed!

Ramping down and suspending operations on a temporary basis whilst solutions are discussed, which include compensation payments to parties impacted, etc etc, is the correct method, I would have thought

 

theres a song here... where did all the royalties go.....?

 

i don’t doubt that there was pollution.... but I would assume that the company could prove that they were below agreed baselines, or that they could improve the processing system to improve discharges, even if having to pay fines (perhaps on a daily basis) whilst the situation was being resolved

[wvavin]

If there is law in Thailand, your mine would not have been shut since January. You got it mate?

[Srikcir]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

so it had decided to commence arbitration proceedings against Thailand under the Australia-Thailand Free Trade Agreement.

There is no judicial system involved, no appeal if either party to a deal made under the ATFTA disagrees to the Arbitral Tribunal decision. The compliance tribunal’s award is final and binding on the Parties.

See ATFTA and specifically Articles 1804-1811.

http://www.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/treaties/en/au-th/trt_au_th.pdf

If the Thai government doesn't agree ( as a hypothetical scenario) to an adverse decision in Kingsgate's favor, I suppose Prayut's only recourse is to renege on the entire free trade agreement and attempt to renegotiate. However, that decision won't negate any award to Kingsgate and may have far reaching economic consequences regarding any other similarly structured free trade agreements.

 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

Different matter, which should have been handled differently, by the environment protection authority equivalent.... yep, the same folk responsible for doing jack about pollution nation wide. 

 

these issues should not be ignored, but they can be overcome

 

admittedly I’m not sure what they are, but Australian gold mining companies operate successfully under very stringent guidelines within Australia... so I’m sure that compliance in these matters, once ordered, would be achievable.

 

then again, being smart people, they are probably already complying to the terms of their operation license... changes to terms would have to be negotiated legally, with proper time frames to implement agreed changes

 

arbitary changes enforced by dictatorial powers are not going to be readily accepted by a multinational corporation, with money to back up their grievances.

 

as a minimum, this could be a precedent setting legal action, and I hope it moves forward without an out of court settlement, because either way, it will set a benchmark that others can use in their business dealings with the kingdom giving some transparency and a buffer to corruption

 

Lol.... please excuse any naivety on my part

 

there won't be any settlement, they are toast.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Rubbish. Do you think a nanny country like Australia would allow the many gold mines there to operate if this was the case!?

yes

how is the work situation in the opal mines there? 

[Mark mark]

It happend to me also, with another Company that I had some of, in Indonesia also, some time ago now. Different Reasons, same principle, the foreign company Invested, and then the Mine was just about working, the Local Crooks (Top level Indon and Malay Companies in this case, and well, Way WAY worse at this sort of thing than the Comparatively More Honest Thais ? ... If you ask me ... ) .... Just took it off of them. ...  and "A Sallami Kum" ...

 

I have been waiting to see then take back the Chatree mine for a while now, like it always was on the cards as far as I could see !!! Good on you who Bought KSL is it (Kings Gate) shares, before the Caught Case was announced, .... but as a lot of the Obviously Smart people on here would be Implying, ... I would sell them all now ???

[bazza73]

4 hours ago, Cadbury said:

All gold miners use cyanide. It's a matter whether it pollutes or not. In this case it was found that it did not pollute any more than was found naturally in the soils around. The Military Director in charge of mining gave it the all clear so far as pollution..

Whether cyanide pollutes or not depends on how it is treated after use.

Waste treatment to oxidize cyanide is either by alkaline chlorination, or a combination of UV light and hydrogen peroxide.

Because these treatments cost money in terms of capital and operating expenses, some of the cheapass miners simply dilute the waste with water, aiming at a final concentration that won't ruffle the feathers of the local environmental authorities. That doesn't happen only in developing countries - North Ltd tried it on with a prospective gold mine at Lake Cowal in Australia some years ago. From memory, they were aiming to discharge 50 mg/L of cyanide into a wildlife habitat.

The gold industry hasn't covered itself in environmental glory over the years. There are streams in the gold province of Victoria which are still grossly polluted with mercury a century later, from when mercury was used instead of cyanide to extract gold.

I suspect in the Thai situation, some money has changed hands and the current brouhaha is because it didn't go to the right person.

I would assess the probability of Kingsgate being successful in its claim as approaching zero.

[Just Weird]

6 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

What about the pollution and the health of the people in the neighborhood?

There wasn't any proof of any pollution or damage to local's health.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Just Weird

[bazza73]

3 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

There wasn't any proof of any pollution or damage to local's health.

One of the more naive statements I've read on Thai Visa.

How long does it take for damage to your health to appear if you are a smoker?

[Just Weird]

Just now, bazza73 said:

One of the more naive statements I've read on Thai Visa.

How long does it take for damage to your health to appear if you are a smoker?

My comment wasn't "naive", it was factual.  Your comment was irrelevant, smoking has no connection whatsoever with unproven allegations of pollution and health concerns. . 

[Mark mark]

Yes I worked at the Telfer Mine in the Great sandy desert of Western Australia back in the 70's ..and well the Taillings dams were Massive even back then, by now they must be Just Gimungus !!! ... And Full of Poisonous Cyanide waist that kills every thing that comes in to contact with it. .... Not a really good thing that I would like to see in a crowded country like Thailand, and with it's very High Rainfall, which has the habit of Flooding and causing stuff like that to over flow. ...  I would keep out of that stock.

 

My Uncle helped build the BHP Taillings Dam at Oktedi in PNG, and well d/t Massive tropical rain, it collapsed, and totally F'd the entire Fly River apparently !!! ... And then there was the recent BHP disaster where people were killed, in a taillings dam collapse at their copper mine in South America ???  ....  Money Talks !!! and !!! .... Mines get Built !!! .... The Pollies Profit with "Jobs" some workers get rich, and Some share holders also ..... And the Holes in the ground, and shit in Taillangs dams, just gets Bigger !!!  ....

[bazza73]

1 minute ago, Just Weird said:

My comment wasn't "naive", it was factual.  Your comment was irrelevant, smoking has no connection whatsoever with unproven allegations of pollution and health concerns. . 

"Facts" are what the local authorities say they are. Whether that can be relied on as true is another question.

The smoking example was used to illustrate long-term damage to health can't be assessed short-term. So it is relevant.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, I won't waste my time further trying to educate you.

[JAG]

There is no judicial system involved, no appeal if either party to a deal made under the ATFTA disagrees to the Arbitral Tribunal decision. The compliance tribunal’s award is final and binding on the Parties.
See ATFTA and specifically Articles 1804-1811.
http://www.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/treaties/en/au-th/trt_au_th.pdf
If the Thai government doesn't agree ( as a hypothetical scenario) to an adverse decision in Kingsgate's favor, I suppose Prayut's only recourse is to renege on the entire free trade agreement and attempt to renegotiate. However, that decision won't negate any award to Kingsgate and may have far reaching economic consequences regarding any other similarly structured free trade agreements.
 

Ah yes, but:
Does the General understand that?
Do his ministers and their advisors understand that?
If so have they broken the news to the General?

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