wood smoke

[fry30]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm living with my wife and children near Ratchaburi in the countryside and our neighbors are very fond of burning anything they can. Our land is 2600 m2 big and our first neighbor is 40 m from our house, they are making carbon everyday just next to our fence, we complain one time as recently they were making a lot more smoke than usual. The whole area turned against us as they probably felt that their way of life was threaten despite explaining them that we were only asking this specific neighbor to slow down on the smoke. To punish us they started to burn even more than usual and added plastic and clothes to the fire, this day we could barely see their house under the smoke.

I'm wondering if a dense garden hedge could bloke the smoke, also does anyone knows how harmful is the wood smoke once diluted in the air?

If you only smell the wood or plastic smoke but don't see the fumes is it still harmful?

[steven100]

3 minutes ago, fry30 said:

I'm wondering if a dense garden hedge could bloke the smoke, also does anyone knows how harmful is the wood smoke once diluted in the air?

If you only smell the wood or plastic smoke but don't see the fumes is it still harmful?

wood smoke  ?   If it is only wood then that's not so harmful. Plastic smoke is harmful and should be avoided always.

The neighbors have been burning waste or whatever for the past 30 years, then you come along and complain .... how do you think they will react  ?    I would grow either a large high hedge along that boundary or plant some semi grown trees along there.  What ever you do it will cost money ... but you have the problem not your neighbor. 

[grollies]

Wait until the wind is blowing their way then light the dirtiest, smelliest bonfire you can. Plastic, tyres, old engine oil.

 

I'd do that rather than complain to them.

 

Fight fire with fire....so to speak

[fry30]

Thanks Steven, as I said we complained only about the neighbor next to us and only asked to slow down not to stop. We would not dare ask anyone to change their way of life, their life expectancy rarely go above 60 year old and they are very happy to die from cancer. So how we thought they will react? not by deforming what we were saying and we are very aware that we are the one with a problem not them.

So you think a large hedge could make a difference? that would be very positive

[fry30]

3 minutes ago, grollies said:

Wait until the wind is blowing their way then light the dirtiest, smelliest bonfire you can. Plastic, tyres, old engine oil.

 

I'd do that rather than complain to them.

 

Fight fire with fire....so to speak

I'm very tempted to do that, but they are already doing this to themselves, their children are all coughing like they have tuberculosis. Also we would probably only lose from fighting with them, who knows what else they could do to us.

[fry30]

Just now one of them wanted to hurt us by making a huge fire with a lot of plastic smoke but she did it in her house and the wind turned, she is running everywhere yelling to stop the fire, we can't stop laughing. สมน้ำหน้า

[Morch]

These things seem to work out better if you've already lived in the place for a while, or if locals are somewhat aware that you intend to become a fixture. Takes some time to suss out who needs to be talked to and what's the best way to bring things up. Sometimes better to head over for a talk, sometimes "consulting " (never complaining) the headman works best.

 

As things are already out of control, sorting it out reasonably with words seems out. A tall, thick hedge would take care of the eyesore, and neighbors won't be "in your face", so probably a good idea anyway. Nothing a rainy season or two can't bring about. Doubt it would do much good with regard to smoke or smell of smoke, though. Knew a guy who hired a couple of them big outdoor field fans, put them on whenever neighbors did their thing. Got the neighbors running to the headman protesting fire hazard (yeah, I know...), which paved the way for negotiations.

 

There's no 100% escaping the burning and smoke thing in this country, although my feeling (even when it pisses me off) is that the situation is slowly improving and that there's greater awareness (well, relatively speaking).

 

I'd put up a hedge, try to ignore them as best as possible, and overtime they'll lose interest doing it to spite and go back to the previous levels. Or, as your last post says - burn down their own house, thus solving the issue. This works too.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, fry30 said:

I'm very tempted to do that, but they are already doing this to themselves, their children are all coughing like they have tuberculosis. Also we would probably only lose from fighting with them, who knows what else they could do to us.

Fair enough mate, in which case a hedge is a good option but not an instant solution. It's a bugger when you get inconsiderate neighbours.

[FritsSikkink]

I like the fan option

[fry30]

Thanks for your advice Morch, we didn't intend to become a fixture and we never implied it but if already on this forum people jump on this conclusion I guess than this neighborhood could think the same. Just the fact that our garden is clean when they are living in middle of their trash could be an insult to their way of life. Whatever we will keep doing what we have being doing this last 2 years and just say nothing, in few day their wrath will pass.

However beside me complaining or blowing off some steam what I really want to know is how bad this smoke could be for my children, I know it's very difficult to assess. I searched a bit on google and it seems that wood smoke is carcinogen too but from which concentration it becomes a concern?

Regarding the improvement in the awareness of pollution it seems it won't happen before long around here, my wife told me that in Issan they are more and more careful and used the speaker to inform everyone of the danger of wood fumes.

[fry30]

@FritsSikkink

 

I don't think the fan stand a chance against the wind,  a field of wind turbines maybe

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by fry30

[MuntyC0re]

wood smoke is not harmful but plastic is

[torrzent]

13 hours ago, MuntyC0re said:

wood smoke is not harmful but plastic is

Wood smoke contains carcinogens which are harmful

[wildewillie89]

19 hours ago, fry30 said:

Thanks for your advice Morch, we didn't intend to become a fixture and we never implied it but if already on this forum people jump on this conclusion I guess than this neighborhood could think the same. Just the fact that our garden is clean when they are living in middle of their trash could be an insult to their way of life. Whatever we will keep doing what we have being doing this last 2 years and just say nothing, in few day their wrath will pass.

However beside me complaining or blowing off some steam what I really want to know is how bad this smoke could be for my children, I know it's very difficult to assess. I searched a bit on google and it seems that wood smoke is carcinogen too but from which concentration it becomes a concern?

Regarding the improvement in the awareness of pollution it seems it won't happen before long around here, my wife told me that in Issan they are more and more careful and used the speaker to inform everyone of the danger of wood fumes.

When I first moved to Isaan, I put an immediate stop to the big fires in my immediate area. So people burning off a good rai behind the house. I don't mind the small fires so much, but the few neighbours I have now know I will go over and confront them about it. So they now burn off their small fires either at night time (windows shut) or in a different place that is protected from hitting our house. 

I cannot speak Thai but with the basic Thai I can speak with some hand signals, I just implied I have a baby, and them burning off is dangerous. So implied it is similar to smoking next to my baby (obviously not as high risk, but risk all the same). It was a 'sorry, sorry, sorry'. Also when I walk the dogs I will inform people of the risks, once the Mrs was with me and she told the monk to go and put the fire out, which he was forced to do. 

Yes, the loud speaker informs them of the risks, and it also reinforces the knowledge that the local officials should have told them. How they can use what they burn off in other ways, so things like making fertilizer, mulch etc. The villagers have been taught about the health risks, and more beneficial way of doing things for a good few years now, so it purely comes down to laziness on their part. 

The problem also is the laws, the way they are written it is hard for the local Mayor to do things. Yes, the public health officials want to act on it, but cannot fine people without the Mayors approval, and he wants the peoples votes so will generally decide not to fine them. As everyone are cousins, you piss off one person and suddenly you lose a hundred votes lol. However, if it particularly bad, collect the evidence and take the local officials and neighbours to the tribunal. The tribunal will enforce the fine.

Edited November 4, 2017 by wildewillie89

[fry30]

13 minutes ago, torrzent said:

Wood smoke contains carcinogens which are harmful

that's what I found on google and have always believed, the neighbors are probably thinking that's benign too

[torrzent]

2 minutes ago, fry30 said:

that's what I found on google and have always believed, the neighbors are probably thinking that's benign too

You are right, lots of links on google.  Not sure why the other guy said not harmful????

 

https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health

Smoke forms when wood or other organic matter burns. The smoke from wood burning is made up of a complex mixture of gases and fine particles (also called particle pollution, particulate matter, or PM). These microscopic particles can get into your eyes and respiratory system, where they can cause health problems such as burning eyes, runny nose, and illnesses such as bronchitis. In addition to particle pollution, wood smoke contains several toxic harmful air pollutants including: benzene, formaldhyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)

 

Health effects of wood smoke

Smoke may smell good, but it's not good for you. Both short- and long-term exposures to particle pollution from wood smoke have been linked to a variety of health effects.

Short-term exposures to particles (hours or days) can aggravate lung disease, causing asthma attacks and acute bronchitis, and may also increase susceptibility to respiratory infections. Long-term exposures (months or years) have been associated with problems such as reduced lung function and the development of chronic bronchitis—and even premature death. Some studies also suggest that long-term PM 2.5 exposures may be linked to cancer and to harmful developmental and reproductive effects, such as infant mortality and low birth weight.

 

[fry30]

21 minutes ago, torrzent said:

You are right, lots of links on google.  Not sure why the other guy said not harmful????

 

https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health

Smoke forms when wood or other organic matter burns. The smoke from wood burning is made up of a complex mixture of gases and fine particles (also called particle pollution, particulate matter, or PM). These microscopic particles can get into your eyes and respiratory system, where they can cause health problems such as burning eyes, runny nose, and illnesses such as bronchitis. In addition to particle pollution, wood smoke contains several toxic harmful air pollutants including: benzene, formaldhyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)

 

Health effects of wood smoke

Smoke may smell good, but it's not good for you. Both short- and long-term exposures to particle pollution from wood smoke have been linked to a variety of health effects.

Short-term exposures to particles (hours or days) can aggravate lung disease, causing asthma attacks and acute bronchitis, and may also increase susceptibility to respiratory infections. Long-term exposures (months or years) have been associated with problems such as reduced lung function and the development of chronic bronchitis—and even premature death. Some studies also suggest that long-term PM 2.5 exposures may be linked to cancer and to harmful developmental and reproductive effects, such as infant mortality and low birth weight.

 

That's the first link I found too, it would be interesting to know at which concentration it's not harmful

[nisakiman]

On 11/4/2017 at 4:08 AM, fry30 said:

That's the first link I found too, it would be interesting to know at which concentration it's not harmful

Always take health advice from government and/or health organisations with a large pinch of salt. Although what they say may well be correct in terms of constituents and their potential for harm, they will always err well on the side of safety, and exaggerate the risks. They will always look at the worst case scenario. They do this because 1) They don't want to be sued for understating the risks, and 2) If they overstate the risks, there will usually be further funding forthcoming for further research, thus ensuring that the mortgage continues to get paid.

 

The reality of the situation is that since man discovered fire, he has been crouching over open wood fires for both cooking and warmth, and over the millennia has evolved lungs that can easily deal with quite high levels of smoke without damage. So wood smoke from next door, although it may be annoying, is very unlikely to have any detrimental health effects. Fumes from plastics will have a much higher level of toxicity, but unless you are being constantly subjected to them are also unlikely to be damaging, not at the levels you are likely to get in the open air where the smoke becomes very diluted. The first rule of toxicology is that the dose makes the poison, which is something that many of these studies deliberately don't make clear.

[fry30]

@Nisakiman, I understand your point but there is a huge difference between a fire camp and making coal, at the fire camp there is not much smoke but coal is only smoke.

Even without the numerous studies on wood smoke it's easy to guess how bad it is to daily breathe dense smoke  by hearing them coughing all day and by seeing how short is their life expectancy.