Setting Up A New Business

[CameronT]

Hello, I am new to the forums and I'm looking for some advice on setting up a business in Thailand. I have recently returned home to Canada and all I can think about is getting back to Thailand. I am a young guy (24) who has been running my own small business for the last 2 years so I do have some experience. The kind of business I could see myself doing in Thailand would be either some kind of bar/pub or restaurant.

Some questions: what kind of money do you think I should have as a minimum? Could someone explain to me the 49% ownership situation and how that all works? Basically I want to know from some experienced people what I should expect to deal with and watch out for if I go ahead with this. Thanks a lot.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Hello, I am new to the forums and I'm looking for some advice on setting up a business in Thailand. I have recently returned home to Canada and all I can think about is getting back to Thailand. I am a young guy (24) who has been running my own small business for the last 2 years so I do have some experience. The kind of business I could see myself doing in Thailand would be either some kind of bar/pub or restaurant.

Some questions: what kind of money do you think I should have as a minimum? Could someone explain to me the 49% ownership situation and how that all works? Basically I want to know from some experienced people what I should expect to deal with and watch out for if I go ahead with this. Thanks a lot.

If you are serious, you should form the company sooner rather than later, as the new FBA laws are going to go in effect in the next three to four months. If you form a company to own a restaurant or bar now, you as a Canadian can control the company with having more voting rights and being the MD. With the news laws, you would be exempt from having to restructure the control of you being a foreigner. You still cannot use nominees but at least you can control your investment now, if the other shareholders will agree to this.

On a legal basis, if you are not married to a Thai, you will need at least 500,000 Baht to form the company and have a work permit. The other 480,000 Baht could be equipment or service. The Thai or American partner would need to invest 1,020,000 Baht in cash, equipment or service.

As for the actual money needed, it just depends, on average I would say, 2 to 4 million Baht. However, I just invested another existing restaurant yesterday. My total investment for the buyout with three months operating capital will be no more than one million Baht as a 100% owner. This will make the 17th restaurant that I’m a shareholder in. I continue to feel that restaurants even though having risks like any country, are a good opportunity in Thailand. The key is service, product, cleanliness and most important is the location of the restaurant.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[CameronT]

Thanks a lot for the reply. I would like to be able to set up the company soon but it wont be possible until at least next fall so i guess I may be screwed.

If anyone else has some more advice for me that would be greatly appreciated.

[DragonQuest]

your not screwed if you have the money, you can walk the walk and talk the talk, Knowledge is power , power is money, money is fun.

[~G~]

Hello, I am new to the forums and I'm looking for some advice on setting up a business in Thailand. I have recently returned home to Canada and all I can think about is getting back to Thailand.

This makes a lot of sense. Thailand is great for tourists, also pretty OK with retirees that has Thai spouses.

I am a young guy (24) who has been running my own small business for the last 2 years so I do have some experience. The kind of business I could see myself doing in Thailand would be either some kind of bar/pub or restaurant. ~

Stop right here - Thailand does not want you to do small business here. Laws are changing periodically for this purpose exactly. Unless you plan to start a really large operation, stay away. The only ones that will try to pursuade you to go ahead, and reassure you that "its ok", are biased law firms that make their living out of:

- Stating small companies here using all kinds of loopholes

- Charging them to arrane for every little document

- Charge them for accounting and serviced offices

- When Thai laws change, charging them again to move them to another loopholes

- If all fails, they have another chance to charge again - this time to close the company

DO NOT START A BUSINESS HERE UNLESS YOU CAN OWN IT 100% - STAY AWAY FROM LEGAL TRICKS

DO NOT START A BUSINESS HERE UNLESS ITS LARGE ENOUGH TO PAY FOR A LOT OF OVERHEAD

DO NOT SEEK SEEMINGLY CONVENIENT LOOPHOLES - THEY WILL CLOSE SOONER OR LATER

Some questions: what kind of money do you think I should have as a minimum?

You don't need much - Thailand will be happy to take whatever you have (in form of fees and taxes), then your law advisors and accountants will take the rest.

Could someone explain to me the 49% ownership situation and how that all works? Basically I want to know from some experienced people what I should expect to deal with and watch out for if I go ahead with this. Thanks a lot.

It is a xenophobic mechanism designed to keep Thailand backwardS and foreign businessmen with as little control as possible. Stay away.

[CameronT]

Thanks ~G~ for being straightforward. How does one get 100% control over the company legally? I can see I'm gonna have to do a ton of research before I make any moves. I wonder if the situation is any better in Laos or Cambodia?

[~G~]

Thanks ~G~ for being straightforward. How does one get 100% control over the company legally? I can see I'm gonna have to do a ton of research before I make any moves. I wonder if the situation is any better in Laos or Cambodia?

100% foreign ownership is possible in the cases of:

- BOI Sponsored companies - if your company is in one of the categories Board Of Investment likes (contributing to Thailand in one way or another). Application for BOI is not trivial, niether cheap. I don't believe Bars or Restaurants can fall in this criteria.

- Companies that engage in specific areas - such as Export, Manufacturing, Hotel Management. In those cases you can register with 100% foreign ownership with no problems - but will not be able to engage in other areas of trade / service.

- Companies that received Alien Business License. I know little about this option, AFAIK you need a significant capital to receive it.

Don't know much about Laos, but Cambodia is much less strict than Thailand when it comes to boths issues of long term visas and foreign businesses.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Thanks ~G~ for being straightforward. How does one get 100% control over the company legally? I can see I'm gonna have to do a ton of research before I make any moves. I wonder if the situation is any better in Laos or Cambodia?

100% foreign ownership is possible in the cases of:

- BOI Sponsored companies - if your company is in one of the categories Board Of Investment likes (contributing to Thailand in one way or another). Application for BOI is not trivial, niether cheap. I don't believe Bars or Restaurants can fall in this criteria.

- Companies that engage in specific areas - such as Export, Manufacturing, Hotel Management. In those cases you can register with 100% foreign ownership with no problems - but will not be able to engage in other areas of trade / service.

- Companies that received Alien Business License. I know little about this option, AFAIK you need a significant capital to receive it.

Don't know much about Laos, but Cambodia is much less strict than Thailand when it comes to boths issues of long term visas and foreign businesses.

You did not mention the Amity Treaty, where Americans can own a business 100% in Thailand.

Can a foreign businessman can make money in business in Thailand? The bottom line is some have and some have not, just like any country.

I'm involved with 22 businesses, ( This is all of them, not just restaurants.) All execpt one will pay corporate tax on the year end net profits for 2006. This is after all write-offs that can be used.

The one that is not going to pay tax after depreciation... a Chester Grill franchise..yearly expense for legal is Food license 3,000 Baht, Accounting is 12,000 Baht per month and the annual audit is 20,000 Baht. This certainly is not the reason why its not flying high.

( By the way, it does have a positive cash flow) but its the location in the Major Centerplex near Ramkhamhaeng is not great on weekdays. Hence I will be moving it. (We in fact were looking for new space today.)

Example for a typical overhead for a small business in a second year. Adam is a one man operation who is exporting. His corp made a net profit of one million Baht in 2006. It would be

Work Permit

Work permit renewal 3,900 Baht

Extension of work permit ( 3 times... each time 1,600 Baht) 4,800 Baht

Traveling fees 1,200 Baht

Government fees of 3,400 Baht

Total for Adam's WP is 13,300 Baht

Visa

In this example I will surmise Adam has a one year multi entry visa which he obtain at a Embassy.

5,000 Baht in government fees

However if it was a extension of stay permit

3,900 renewal

3,300 Baht extension ( 2 times to hear the results at 1,600 Baht

Government fees would be 1,900 Baht

Government fees for reentry permit 3,800 Baht

Traveling fees of 900 Baht

13,900 Baht total for visa or 5,000 if obtained at Embassy.

Accounting Filing Fees

2,500 Baht per month

annual audit 13,000 Baht

Half year report 3,000 Baht

Traveling fees 4,200 Baht

Total 50,200 Baht

Personal Taxes

1,500 Baht monthy personal income tax on a 30K salary.

Dividends 10 % on 750,000 is 75,000 Baht

Total tax 93,000 Baht

Corp Taxes

Net profit not exceeding 1 million Baht 15%

- Net profit over 1 million Baht but not exceeding 3 million Baht 25%

- Net profit exceeding 3 million Baht 30%

The corp will pay 150,000 Baht in tax.

Adam puts in his pocket 675,000( after tax on dividends) plus 342,000 ( salary after tax) for a total of 1,017,000 Baht in his pocket. By the way he left 100,000 Baht in reserve ( 850K -100K=750K) from the net profit.

His corp and personal tax was 243,000 Baht

The corp overhead was 68,500 Baht to file tax and get wp and multi entry visa.

His annual office rental was 39,000 Baht. ( discount of two months free if he pays in advance)

Lets say Adam's company made no net profit

His corp and personal tax would be 18,000 Baht

His corp overhead was 68,300 to file tax and get wp and multi entry visa

His office rental was 39,000

Adam still puts in his pocket 342,000 Baht ( salary after tax)... granted its his money he invested in the company.

Did he fail because of the rental, tax and legal overhead? It is around 10K per month.. the answer is no.

By the way, this overhead is must cheaper than most countries.

However I can say, when someone fails, it is never is their fault. Easy to blame someone else rather than themselves. Better to blame the country or the lawyer or the employees. How many people you ever hear say " I'm a bad manager" not too many.

The bottom line as it stands now, Thailand has exempted List three from the new laws. This means that a foreigner has time to still be legal having the rules of control that are being grandfather in.

By the way, out of all our foreign clients that have more voting rights than Thais , only two will need to restructure as they are on list one and two and they are not BOI or Amity.Their cost to restructure will be just 3,000 Baht.

The new laws could of been much worse and would of been, if they wanted foreign businessmen to get out.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[~G~]

You did not mention the Amity Treaty, where Americans can own a business 100% in Thailand.

That's because he is not an American, is he? If you bothered reading his post, you'd see he is a Canadian.

I'm involved with 22 businesses, ( This is all of them, not just restaurants.) All execpt one will pay corporate tax on the year end net profits for 2006. This is after all write-offs that can be used.

You are certainly not a good example. Why?

A. You are an American, and Americans enjoy very significant benefits other nationals do not. My comments were not directed to Americans.

B. Your Thai wife is an experienced manager and plays a major part in your restaurant chain and organization as a whole. You have mentioned on this board, repeatedly, her significant contribution to your business. Whenever there is any difficulty with either the culture or language barriers, she can handle them much more effectively than the average "I love Thailand and wanna open a business" farang.

C. Your business is big anough to support plenty of overhead. Having in-house lawyers (that can help in drawing contracts, negotiating with landlords, etc), accountants (cheap accounting coz you charge others for those services as well), auditors (same same), secreterie etc. is possible for a law firm combined with a restaurant chain of around 20 locations, hardly the same story for a person that operates a single restaurant or bar.

Did he fail because of the rental, tax and legal overhead? It is around 10K per month.. the answer is no.

By the way, this overhead is must cheaper than most countries.

Complete nonsense. You did not include:

- Obligatory yearly trips abroad to obtain the Non-Imm-Visa, including staying in a hotel 1-2 nights. Say around 10,000 baht a year.

- 90 days Visa runs cost. Say 2,000 baht each, which is 6,000 baht a year.

- Office costs, beacause unlike many other countries, he cannot operate from home. He must have a real address, and no, serviced office is not acceptable in the long run as you know very well. Around 15,000 baht a month.

- At least one Thai office manager or secretary to assist in any documents in Thai, phone communication with suppliers, etc.. Again, it's very convenient not to include it when you have both a Thai wife as an executive in your organization, plus in-house secretaries, lawyers, accountants, receptionists, etc. Minimum 15,000 baht a month.

Those points you conveninetly did not include amount to around 32,000 baht a month. Plus the 10,000 baht a month you did mention it's 42,000 baht a month, or around 1,200 USD of REDUNDANT MONTHLY OVERHEAD. This is certainly not little for a small business.

PLUS, I was refering to the case of restaurant/bar, not to an operation one can own 100%. This means possible periodical changes in the status of the company whenever the govenrment feels pissed, plus the costs to arrange for loan agreements, holding companies, joint venture agreements, and god know what other semi legal hocus focus. Those cost can be pretty high.

And why do I say REDUNDANT OVERHEAD? Because for a SMALL BUSINESS, in his own country he can start a one -

- Without forming a company. He can be a Sole Propriteor.

- Without having an office. He can work from home.

- Without using a secretray. He is fluent enough in his own language and understands his own culture.

- Without using an accountant - he can do his own accounting with little instructions from the respective government offices.

- Without any lawyer setup fees. One can easily figure out how to start a sole proprietorship in his own country and go through the process without paying a cent.

The correct comparison is:

- Small buisness in your own country: ZERO OBLIGATORY overhead.

- Small business in Thailand: Over 1,200 USD a month overhead.

However I can say, when someone fails, it is never is their fault. Easy to blame someone else rather than themselves. Better to blame the country or the lawyer or the employees. How many people you ever hear say " I'm a bad manager" not too many.

That is correct. One should take responsibility for one's actions, and NOT START A SMALL BUSINESS IN THAILAND, where he is at disadvantage. Instead, look for places you have advantage.

The new laws could of been much worse and would of been, if they wanted foreign businessmen to get out.

And we have Sunbelt's word they won't change again? LOL !

[englishoak]

As a passing interest is it possible to set up a ltd company in thailand and leave it dormant?

[JimsKnight]

I have to say that it seems this time even the legendry sunbelt kid can't spin a happy go lucky 'can do' web this time. The 'G' Man is right its a crazy rollercoaster with missing track to invest out here an a non american. Granted some do well out of the Thailand but very few small outfits are going to go under or suffer hard times.

[Cyberstar]

I have to say that it seems this time even the legendry sunbelt kid can't spin a happy go lucky 'can do' web this time. The 'G' Man is right its a crazy rollercoaster with missing track to invest out here an a non american. Granted some do well out of the Thailand but very few small outfits are going to go under or suffer hard times.

The 'G' man used to be one of my favorites. He obviously knows his stuff by experience and has been a good asset for the guys running this site, as well as for newbees like I were a few years ago ... However, lately his views seem to be colored by bitterness ... What's the problem? ... Doesn't business go so well these days?

[CameronT]

I'm glad I made this post it has really opened my eyes to some of the problems.

I was not aware that you can't work from home (seems rediculous to me). Can't one just use the business site as his office instead of leasing one?

[Hark]

Amazing! This is maybe my 2nd or 3rd post on the site but this is a really good post, or at least it's the same thing I was gonna ask. It does seem that "G" owns that Sunbelt rep. If Mr. Sunbelt is American why does he write like that? Anyway, what would happen if someone showed up over there, threw a sign on their shophouse(where they happen to be living) and called themselves a language center of sorts, with flyers and everything? Would they be shut down, forced to pay police money, or what? What are the laws as they pretain to that particular business venture? Sorry to go off subject. Thanks

[RedCardinal]

If Mr. Sunbelt is American why does he write like that?

Maybe more than one Sunbelt employee posts under the account? It would make sense.

Seems to me that the current (and future?) uncertainties make investing in Thailand quite risky. I hope to do something here shortly, but I'm not sure that the return justifies the risk.

Sunbelt - do you have an office in Phuket? I looked on your site but see no mention. Your livechat seems a bit busy also.

[Chang_paarp]

I'm glad I made this post it has really opened my eyes to some of the problems.

I was not aware that you can't work from home (seems rediculous to me). Can't one just use the business site as his office instead of leasing one?

You can run your business from home, HOWEVER, the use of the premises has to be approved by the landlord. Getting said permission for a residential landlord can be problematic as it involves drawing attention to the landlord which may wake-up the tax office. In the municipality I live in you also need the permission of the the landlord, the neighbours, the shire and the application process is torturous, in the next municipality it is a simple form and a $30 fee. This is not a Thailand specific problem.

If Mr. Sunbelt is American why does he write like that? Anyway, what would happen if someone showed up over there, threw a sign on their shophouse(where they happen to be living) and called themselves a language center of sorts, with flyers and everything? Would they be shut down, forced to pay police money, or what? What are the laws as they pretain to that particular business venture? Sorry to go off subject. Thanks

Greg is an American, just look at his spelling of words like colour. He is also a human, and in spite of my assertions that he uses boiler-plates, he writes each reply, there seems to be several account that Sunbelt uses as a company but from my reading over the last year or so Greg writes under the main one. I would guess he writes many in a hurry to keep the up with the workload, and some with gritted teeth thus different styles of writing, he is human.

As to what would happen if someone just put up a sign and started trading. The same as most parts of the world, the neighbours would complain about the parking problem to someone. The competitors would complain to the registering authority about the lack of licences, and if a foreigner is involved everyone would complain to immigration. Of course if the person doing the business is well connected the people taking the complaints may not understand what is being said.

A school or language centre requires a lot of preparation to open. Apart from having the building, curriculum, emergency plans and staff approved by the Ministry of Education, the local Amphur and any one else that thinks they should be involved, it can take months and costs in the region of 1mil Baht.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Sorry "G" for the delay. Just saw your post.

That's because he is not an American, is he? If you bothered reading his post, you'd see he is a Canadian.

I read his post. Not only is this OP reading this thread. That is why I pointed it out. If another reader is American or has an American partner, this can be another way to have more foreign ownership.

You are certainly not a good example. Why?

A. You are an American, and Americans enjoy very significant benefits other nationals do not. My comments were not directed to Americans.

B. Your Thai wife is an experienced manager and plays a major part in your restaurant chain and organization as a whole. You have mentioned on this board, repeatedly, her significant contribution to your business. Whenever there is any difficulty with either the culture or language barriers, she can handle them much more effectively than the average "I love Thailand and wanna open a business" farang.

C. Your business is big anough to support plenty of overhead. Having in-house lawyers (that can help in drawing contracts, negotiating with landlords, etc), accountants (cheap accounting coz you charge others for those services as well), auditors (same same), secreterie etc. is possible for a law firm combined with a restaurant chain of around 20 locations, hardly the same story for a person that operates a single restaurant or bar.

Those are some good points, the best one being in reference to my wife. I have often said, and continue to say, “She has been invaluable.” Some of your points were flawed however, as you did not say "If you are American, don't read my post". Cheap accounting is not true, and in fact we pay more than the amounts that many of our clients pay (they are salaried employees doing the books for each company).

Complete nonsense. You did not include:

- Obligatory yearly trips abroad to obtain the Non-Imm-Visa, including staying in a hotel 1-2 nights. Say around 10,000 baht a year.

The reason not included is if they are going back home for the Holiday, they could do this at the same time.

Also they could have the extension of stay based on marriage or education.

- 90 days Visa runs cost. Say 2,000 baht each, which is 6,000 baht a year.

If they had to travel anyway, no additional cost. Also if they had a extension of stay based on marriage or education, no need to travel. Otherwise this would be correct on 500 Baht more per month on overhead.

- Office costs, beacause unlike many other countries, he cannot operate from home. He must have a real address, and no, serviced office is not acceptable in the long run as you know very well. Around 15,000 baht a month.

I already put this in there in the post. It’s 39,000 Baht for the year and accounted for already in my post. This is NOT a virtual office. The lease is not a "hot desk" but a permanent space that he rents. We have a number of export companies doing this.

- At least one Thai office manager or secretary to assist in any documents in Thai, phone communication with suppliers, etc.. Again, it's very convenient not to include it when you have both a Thai wife as an executive in your organization, plus in-house secretaries, lawyers, accountants, receptionists, etc. Minimum 15,000 baht a month.

The Executive Space secretary handles any incoming calls. Any Thai documents such as invoices are showed to the accountant, and legal document shown to the lawyers. We ourselves do not charge any additional fees for this service. Many export companies have no Thai employees.

Those points you conveninetly did not include amount to around 32,000 baht a month. Plus the 10,000 baht a month you did mention it's 42,000 baht a month, or around 1,200 USD of REDUNDANT MONTHLY OVERHEAD. This is certainly not little for a small business.

In my points, Adam still would have zero additional costs apart from the costs I already pointed out. If he did not have an extension of stay permit, however, and was not planning on going on holidays or any other trips, then you could add travel and hotel expenses.

PLUS, I was refering to the case of restaurant/bar, not to an operation one can own 100%. This means possible periodical changes in the status of the company whenever the govenrment feels pissed, plus the costs to arrange for loan agreements, holding companies, joint venture agreements, and god know what other semi legal hocus focus. Those cost can be pretty high.

Even with the new laws, 99.90% of our clients will not pay any additional costs.

And why do I say REDUNDANT OVERHEAD? Because for a SMALL BUSINESS, in his own country he can start a one -

- Without forming a company. He can be a Sole Propriteor.

- Without having an office. He can work from home.

- Without using a secretray. He is fluent enough in his own language and understands his own culture.

- Without using an accountant - he can do his own accounting with little instructions from the respective government offices.

- Without any lawyer setup fees. One can easily figure out how to start a sole proprietorship in his own country and go through the process without paying a cent.

The correct comparison is:

- Small buisness in your own country: ZERO OBLIGATORY overhead.

- Small business in Thailand: Over 1,200 USD a month overhead.

In the case I'm using with Adam, he still has less than 10,000 baht ($250) per month of overheads in Thailand. The point I'm making is if Adam relocates to Hong Kong or Singapore or even to the UK, his costs would be higher.

And we have Sunbelt's word they won't change again? LOL !

I didn't say that they would not change. I said that “The new laws could have been much worse, and would have been if they wanted foreign businessmen to get out."

As for setting up a business from your house. Most landlords will not allow it.

This what is needed...

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[~G~]

Sorry "G" for the delay. Just saw your post.

No problems. In the meanwhile, we have seen several other posters, most of them share my views.

>>Some of your points were flawed however, as you did not say "If you are American, don't read my post".

Nonsense. I answered the OP, who is a Canadian. Your Amercian-related is completly irrelevant in this thread.

>>Cheap accounting is not true, and in fact we pay more than the amounts that many of our clients pay (they are salaried employees doing the books for each company).

You did not get my point at all. Of course you'd pay more than a one man operation. My point is your accounting would be more expensive if you didn't provide accounting services as well.

>>The reason not included is if they are going back home for the Holiday, they could do this at the same time.

Not every embassy gives non-imm-B for one year. Many give only 3 months. Thai Embassy in my country gives only 3 months, so I have to travel especially. In addition, that is a big ÏF. Some people are not comfortable going at that specific time for a holiday.

>>Also they could have the extension of stay based on marriage or education.

Again, only good for those who are married. The OP isn't. Education? we are talking about a biz owner, not of a student. And can someone on an education visa get a WP???

>>90 days Visa runs cost. Say 2,000 baht each, which is 6,000 baht a year

If they had to travel anyway, no additional cost.

Again, a big IF. And if they were Thai, they didn't need a visa at all. IF.

>>This is NOT a virtual office. The lease is not a "hot desk" but a permanent space that he rents.

Do you really want to get me started about your "desks"? LOL. We have seen what another forum member thought about it in a thread a few days ago. Asked for a serviced office, you didn't bother reading his post fully and proposed your desks. He really didn't like it, and I can fully understand why. An exporter that should limit himself to around 1 square meter, without any place to keep samples, without privacy when dicussing prices on the phone, and having his computer, with all the records, in the same room where other non-related people work, must be quite deperate. No way an exporter that does 1M baht profit a year will go for that.

>> We have a number of export companies doing this.

Well, I just don't believe that statement. Not serious exporters that do 1M aht a year profit .Maybe the comanies are defined as exporting but their purpose is to provide visa for the owner? And I want to see what Revenue Department people say when they visit this kind of company, and they will.

>> The Executive Space secretary handles any incoming calls.

I am not talking about merely answering and passing the call or taking a message - I am talking about handling company issues.

>> Any Thai documents such as invoices are showed to the accountant,

What if they don't want to use your accounting service? Or don't want to wait for your accountant to finish his/her work to treat the document? By the way, I didn't point out another flaw in your calculation - you mentioned 2,500 baht accounting. That ay be a bit misleading. 2,500 you charge only for how many, 20 documents? Any seriously trading company will have more than that. Ah, maybe not if they pay Sunbelt for everything.

>> and legal document shown to the lawyers.

You don't need a lwayer for the vast majority of documents. Just a loyal, accountable and educated Thai secretary, which should be available any minute of working hours, one should not queue up to use your lawyers (we have seen here people comlainng about the time it takes you to process things). And your lawyers - I understand they don't speak English as well. LOL. So for every small document one should use one of your lawyers plus a translator? And who will follow up on this document? Sounds like a big joke.

>> Even with the new laws, 99.90% of our clients will not pay any additional costs.

Nonsense. you have no way of doing the statistics, many companies, altough set up by yours, use other law firms

for additional legal services.

>> The point I'm making is if Adam relocates to Hong Kong or Singapore or even to the UK, his costs would be higher.

First, you have not demonstrated it. Just like anyone can say that to use a lawyer in Thailand you must pay 200 USD an hour because some firms charge that. If you did not explore all options in HK, Singapore or UK, you are just speculating. HK-based companies are VERY competitive in terms of costs. Second, I am not comparing it to Singapore, HK or UK, I believe my comparison was clear enough.

And we have Sunbelt's word they won't change again? LOL !

I didn't say that they would not change. I said that “The new laws could have been much worse, and would have been if they wanted foreign businessmen to get out."

I know what you said. You are maybe trying to use your psychic abilities and tell us what "they" want? We know very well what they want, and it is reflected in the changes. In addition, my point was that THIS IS A PATTERN THAT YOU MAY BE PRETENDING NOT TO SEE - they go step by step - the last government started anti-foreign changes:

limiting visa runs,

then cancelling Investment Visas altogether,

making it harder to get other visas,

more stricter enforcement of land law and company incorporation regulations

(that eliminated many of the "legal tricks" you used in the past).

Then, the current administration is continuing with:

changing the laws,

fiddling with the currency and imposing strange restrictions on incoming investments.

NOBODY CAN ASSURE FOREIGN INVESTORS THE CHANGES HASN'T ENDED.

Judging by the last years, the pattern and the trend, it is very probable more anti-foreigner laws will be introduced sooner or later.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Nonsense. I answered the OP, who is a Canadian. Your Amercian-related is completly irrelevant in this thread.

What if he has an American partner then is it irrelevant?

You did not get my point at all. Of course you'd pay more than a one man operation. My point is your accounting would be more expensive if you didn't provide accounting services as well.

You didn't get my point. Not one of the accountants that work for clients, work on our books. They are separate people. You felt they were and they are not. They are in different buildings in different parts of the city. Every business is seperate. Our restaurant accountants don't have time to work on clients accounts.

Not every embassy gives non-imm-B for one year. Many give only 3 months. Thai Embassy in my country gives only 3 months, so I have to travel especially. In addition, that is a big ÏF. Some people are not comfortable going at that specific time for a holiday.

One Consulate in the area still gives a one year visa with a work permit. Stll most people travel at least once a year.

Again, only good for those who are married. The OP isn't. Education? we are talking about a biz owner, not of a student. And can someone on an education visa get a WP???

Yes a person with an education visa can get a work permit. I was talking about people in general, how they could qualify. Not just this OP.

Again, a big IF. And if they were Thai, they didn't need a visa at all. IF.

Even if its not a big IF. It's only 500 Baht per month. As stated for a number of people, they travel anyway.

Do you really want to get me started about your "desks"? LOL. We have seen what another forum member thought about it in a thread a few days ago. Asked for a serviced office, you didn't bother reading his post fully and proposed your desks. He really didn't like it, and I can fully understand why. An exporter that should limit himself to around 1 square meter, without any place to keep samples, without privacy when dicussing prices on the phone, and having his computer, with all the records, in the same room where other non-related people work, must be quite deperate. No way an exporter that does 1M baht profit a year will go for that.

It was my mistake that he wanted a office. Fortunately we had helped him with an office. We have offices as well.

I will take new pictures for the web site. Does not give justice on the space now.

Well, I just don't believe that statement. Not serious exporters that do 1M aht a year profit .Maybe the comanies are defined as exporting but their purpose is to provide visa for the owner? And I want to see what Revenue Department people say when they visit this kind of company, and they will.

We get visited every day by Government officials. In fact most days two or three times. They have no problem with it as these companies have a work space. Please do not degrade our clients by saying it’s for a visa, why they maintain a company.

What if they don't want to use your accounting service? Or don't want to wait for your accountant to finish his/her work to treat the document? By the way, I didn't point out another flaw in your calculation - you mentioned 2,500 baht accounting. That ay be a bit misleading. 2,500 you charge only for how many, 20 documents? Any seriously trading company will have more than that. Ah, maybe not if they pay Sunbelt for everything.

A number have around 30-50 documents. We charge the same... 1,500 Baht. 1,000 Baht for withholding tax. From 50-100 invoices, we charge 1,000 Baht more.

You don't need a lwayer for the vast majority of documents. Just a loyal, accountable and educated Thai secretary, which should be available any minute of working hours, one should not queue up to use your lawyers (we have seen here people comlainng about the time it takes you to process things). And your lawyers - I understand they don't speak English as well. LOL. So for every small document one should use one of your lawyers plus a translator? And who will follow up on this document? Sounds like a big joke.

It works well for many and I mean many people. My team and I do our best. That’s all I can do, help the best we can. For many that’s good enough and why we continue to expand each and every month.

Almost all of staffs English are good. We have upgraded over the years to making it a requirement.

Nonsense. you have no way of doing the statistics, many companies, altough set up by yours, use other law firms

for additional legal services.

I'm talking our clients that were set up by us.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

First, you have not demonstrated it. Just like anyone can say that to use a lawyer in Thailand you must pay 200 USD an hour because some firms charge that. If you did not explore all options in HK, Singapore or UK, you are just speculating. HK-based companies are VERY competitive in terms of costs. Second, I am not comparing it to Singapore, HK or UK, I believe my comparison was clear enough.

Look at office rents. Labor Costs. They are cheaper or more expensive than Thailand?

I know what you said. You are maybe trying to use your psychic abilities and tell us what "they" want? We know very well what they want, and it is reflected in the changes. In addition, my point was that THIS IS A PATTERN THAT YOU MAY BE PRETENDING NOT TO SEE - they go step by step - the last government started anti-foreign changes:

NOBODY CAN ASSURE FOREIGN INVESTORS THE CHANGES HASN'T ENDED.

Noobody can say in the future, no change. As I pointed out I didn't say that either.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[~G~]

First, you have not demonstrated it. Just like anyone can say that to use a lawyer in Thailand you must pay 200 USD an hour because some firms charge that. If you did not explore all options in HK, Singapore or UK, you are just speculating. HK-based companies are VERY competitive in terms of costs. Second, I am not comparing it to Singapore, HK or UK, I believe my comparison was clear enough.

Look at office rents. Labor Costs. They are cheaper or more expensive than Thailand?

Office rents are quite irrelevant when seeking the cheapest solution, as you have demonstrated. 3,900 baht a month per 1 or 2 square meters is quite expensive. 2,500 baht a month is very expensive for a sign on the wall.

Labor costs of English speaking staff is not more expensive than in Thailand. In fact, when it comes to good English speaking staff, Thailand is redicilously uncompetitive.

---

I have spent enough time on this thread, so I will conclude with a few points:

- So far, you are the only poster on this thread that pointed alleged advantages of setting up in Thailand, and why it is a good idea. Incidently, or not incidently, you may have direct or indirect benefits from expats believing in those views and acting upon them.

- Most of the points you raised were regarding an Export biz, that can be 100% foreign owned, and one with a very large profit margins, and therefore does not fall in my "no no" criteria anyway.

- To anyone considering setup in Thailand: go and speak to foreign business owners that lived here for years and ask them what they think. Speak to as many as possible, especially to those that are related to your industry. As for Legal Advisors, they do have an important role, but since they are biased, their advice must be treated accordingly.

Edited January 18, 2007 by ~G~

[GottMogen]

If you already have a foreign company in say the US and were wanting to relocate to thailand in the next year and work via the internet with your company in US would this be easily attainable and would I have to set up a Thai business if all my work was done via Voip phone and internet?