Britain agrees to set EU 'Exit Day' in law

[7by7]

10 hours ago, Orac said:

On  a technical point, surely this is just a proposal and not an agreement at present which would require the consent of parliament.

Which is what the OP said!

13 hours ago, webfact said:

The government said it was proposing a change to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill currently making its way through parliament to set the exit for 2300 GMT on March 29, 2019.

A Bill is not law until it has been passed by both houses and receives royal assent; at which point a Bill becomes an Act and so law.

[Dumbastheycome]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The UK have tried to change the EU for years. It has refused. by the time they start to reform, other countries will have left. The EU is becoming more federalized and wants its own army, more control over the countries, taking away democratic parliaments. The EU is not democratic, I suggest you read up on it. If you want to be a cloned sheep being the same as everyone else, I pity you.

 

You talk about trust in partnerships. We were partners for 40 plus years. We actually joined a common market. The EU is not that organization now.

 

As for the EU being a good club. It has been for some countries who were poor and have developed, especially putting little in and getting lots out. the UK has never been one of those. The rest of the world does OK outside of the EU. You talk as if the UK is going to but a wall around itself. it isn't. You are right it has many faults and they are becoming more obvious.

 

We shared a house with 6 others, then it grew to 27. We are moving out. We can still be friends and even trade but we are not going to be told we can't trade with others in the street and we have to do as we are told on everything.  It does mean that whatever we put in the fridge, everyone else won't be stealing it,  If we ever get out of the EU with the way TM is going.

 

As a side note, I was thinking that TM and delivering brexit must be like being a non-believer in religion and then having to stand up in church and tell the congregation that god exists and the true savior of everyone. The sooner she goes the better.

 

Very   nice   description  of   situation  re"  sharing  the  house   abut having   what is  put  in the  fridge  stolen.

But did  the  UK  originally  share  the  house  and  the  fridge  without   understanding  that  what  went  in  that  fridge  was   common property  or   not for  the  short/ long  term  benefit?

It  is  unfortunate  that  the  UK  has  repeatedly   reneged  on  many  international "  trade"   situations   over  time.

It  is  likely  that  this  time   around  that  the  UK  will  end  up  being  the  poorer   state  in the  region  and  will    even  more   be  reliant  on  control   from....ahem !   Ya  all  take   care   now !

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

A date and time needed to be set to provide assurance to the billionaire elites who bankrolled the Brexit madness that they would be free of the potential horrors of the impending EU-wide Anti Tax Avoiding Directive. Thanks to the support of a large number of useful idiots, the likes of Lord Rothermere, Lord Ashcroft, and other tax avoiding parasites can continue to keep their money out of reach of the tax man without fear of having to cough up like the little people they brainwashed.

Why din’t You mention George Soras and all the other billionaires, who wish for us to remain in this so-called union.

here are some of the less wealthy remoaners.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Why din’t You mention George Soras and all the other billionaires, who wish for us to remain in this so-called union.

here are some of the less wealthy remoaners.

 

 

I wasn't objecting to the size of their bank accounts so much as the location, and their writing the rules that allow them to avoid the taxes that we plebs have to pay. Do the gentlemen above also have the means to influence taxation policy, and do they exploit those means to the hilt, both legislatatively and financially?

 

And let's be realistic - while 250K a year is a nice salary in most people's eyes, it hardly allows for a private jet, a pied a terre in St Tropez and a yacht the size of a football field. I do fear that your Facebook friend is, as usual, somewhat hyperbolic or has an incredibly small imagination. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by RuamRudy

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Indeed, many are now waking up to the reality of their actions. Grimsby, a fishing town that was 70% in favour of Brexit, now realises what a monumental mistake they made, and now want special exemptions:

 

Grimsby residents branded 'idiots' for Brexit vote as seafood industry seeks free trade deal

"People in Grimsby have been accused of “double standards” and of being “idiots” for voting to leave the EU after representatives of the town’s seafood industry called for special free trade status after Brexit."

And who exactly branded them as idiots? Absolute Rubbish.

Visited Grimsby in September, they ALL want out.

The only fish now landed in Grimsby and Hull, is from Foreign owed trawlers.

No one is expecting the fishing fleet to grow pre 1975, but it WILL grow.

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

And who exactly branded them as idiots? Absolute Rubbish.

 

It's in the article.

 

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Visited Grimsby in September, they ALL want out.

 

ALL of them? Even the 30% that voted remain have come round?

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

And who exactly branded them as idiots? Absolute Rubbish.

Seafood Grimsby and Humber

Quote

a cluster group that represents the seafood sector in our region with a core vision of "championing Grimsby and the wider Humber catching and seafood processing cluster across the supply chain from mobile fishmongers to corporate giants."

 

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Visited Grimsby in September, they ALL want out

You spoke to all of them? Every single voter in Grimsby?

 

Maybe those you spoke to still want out; but how representative are they? As representative as a group which

Quote

has a board which directs resources and the vision to more than 75 members who range from sole traders with mobile fish vans to large, multinational corporations. 

 

So which carries more weight; the opinion of a few disgruntled people down the pub, or that of people, individuals as well as corporations, actually working in the industry? 

[nontabury]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It's in the article.

 

ALL of them? Even the 30% that voted remain have come round?

This newspapers was anti Britexit before the referendum. Don’t believe everything you read in a newspaper. And for this newspaper, don’t even believe the printed date.

Edited November 10, 2017 by nontabury

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

This newspapers was anti Britexit before the referendum. Don’t believe everything you read in a newspaper. And for this newspaper, don’t even believe the printed date.

Don't you believe a few mates down the pub represent the opinion of a whole town!

[icare999]

15 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I am not British so my views don't matter much, however...

 

This was a stupid decision, and it has been compounded by the most incompetent leaving process I have ever seen. If you feel that you need to set a time and date into law for getting out, your future relations ain't gonna be that great.

 

Apologies to my Brit friends...

 

and not being british you really dont know anything or you would understand why  its needed 

 

[icare999]

13 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 

You make a good point, but I will have to leave the specific, detailed discussions to those who know more than I. However, let me speak in generalities a bit...

 

Economically, I don't know if the UK has always had a negative balance of payments, but I doubt that it will always have one. My view is the the EU represents an opportunity to be part of a large market and to thrive within that market. I suspect the we are having a glass half full/glass half empty talk...

 

Culturally, this may sound funny as the British influence has been felt around the world for centuries, but I think protecting British culture into the future is more effective within a bloc of people that hold similar values. Forgive me, but outside of the EU the UK will be just one more small/medium country with minimal influence. Inside it has a strong, global voice.

 

Politically, I think the UK will be diminished greatly outside of the EU. When (and it is when, not if) the UN finally decides to reform, the first thing on the block will be the UK seat on the Security Council. Further, although the UK has a large army and the courage to use it, the opportunities for influence will be diminished outside of the EU. Force and influence thrive with a combination of power, both soft and hard. The UK isn't really big enough for soft power on its own, at least in any meaningful way. Finally, there are now doubts about the UK's commitment to partnerships. The UK does have the right to pull out of the EU, but I wonder if any country will ever be really comfortable with a long-term partnership with the UK again (I would certainly think very long and hard before any long-term agreement with the UK).

 

Generally, I think in this world of change and uncertainty, it is good to be in a community of like-minded folks. The EU members, for all their faults (and there are MANY), share a great deal; freedom of expression, freedom of the press, democracy, respect for human rights, respect for rule of law, etc. It seems to me that this is a good club to be a member of.

 

Finally, let me say that I should not have used the word "Stupid", but perhaps 'unwise'. The UK has every right to pull out of the UK, and I should respect that right a bit better.

 

Cheers

your talking total BS 

[dunroaming]

12 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 

You make a good point, but I will have to leave the specific, detailed discussions to those who know more than I. However, let me speak in generalities a bit...

 

Economically, I don't know if the UK has always had a negative balance of payments, but I doubt that it will always have one. My view is the the EU represents an opportunity to be part of a large market and to thrive within that market. I suspect the we are having a glass half full/glass half empty talk...

 

Culturally, this may sound funny as the British influence has been felt around the world for centuries, but I think protecting British culture into the future is more effective within a bloc of people that hold similar values. Forgive me, but outside of the EU the UK will be just one more small/medium country with minimal influence. Inside it has a strong, global voice.

 

Politically, I think the UK will be diminished greatly outside of the EU. When (and it is when, not if) the UN finally decides to reform, the first thing on the block will be the UK seat on the Security Council. Further, although the UK has a large army and the courage to use it, the opportunities for influence will be diminished outside of the EU. Force and influence thrive with a combination of power, both soft and hard. The UK isn't really big enough for soft power on its own, at least in any meaningful way. Finally, there are now doubts about the UK's commitment to partnerships. The UK does have the right to pull out of the EU, but I wonder if any country will ever be really comfortable with a long-term partnership with the UK again (I would certainly think very long and hard before any long-term agreement with the UK).

 

Generally, I think in this world of change and uncertainty, it is good to be in a community of like-minded folks. The EU members, for all their faults (and there are MANY), share a great deal; freedom of expression, freedom of the press, democracy, respect for human rights, respect for rule of law, etc. It seems to me that this is a good club to be a member of.

 

Finally, let me say that I should not have used the word "Stupid", but perhaps 'unwise'. The UK has every right to pull out of the UK, and I should respect that right a bit better.

 

Cheers

Well leaving the EU is unfortunately the plan.  It is now all about what deals can be done to still get some of the benefits without being part of the EU family.  At the moment it looks like there aren't any benefits from leaving so the negotiators need to pull something out of the bag or we will be very much up the creek.  40% of our exports go to the EU and of course many of our imports come from there.  Without a free trade agreement we  would not only lose a large part of those exports, we would also suffer tariffs on all our EU imports. All this means higher prices, lower pound, less safety nets for the workers, lower economic performance so less money for the NHS and schools.

 

People say that Britain has the fifth largest economy in the world and that is true.  However that is as part of the EU and after Brexit the position is bound to change.

 

Of course Article 50 can easily be reversed as has been announced today by the writer of the article Lord Kerr.  This has sent May into panic mode (again) and is why she is threatening to make the leaving date law.   To add to the misery after another week of talks in Brussels  we are still way off enough headway to move to the next stage.

 

13 hours ago, alant said:

So why is it so stupid?

Do you really need to ask?

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

17 hours ago, alant said:

So why is it so stupid?

Do you really need to ask?

 

Because it doesn't fit Dunroaming's personal business model.

[Stargeezr]

The Brexit is a good idea, getting out of the EU before it faces more countries, like Greece being totally bankrupt taking the other countries down with it. Britain (UK) may have some tough years ahead, but the future will be theirs to control.

Geezer

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Don't you believe a few mates down the pub represent the opinion of a whole town!

This is the second post in which you suggest that I listen to people in the pub. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but I’ve never visited a pub in Grimsby in my whole life. Drag yourself away from the computer 7x7, there’s a whole world out there.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but I’ve never visited a pub in Grimsby in my whole life.

 

I have, though I didn't discuss brexit with anyone. The town looks like a classic example of one that has had it's major industry taken away without any forward planning.

[nontabury]

On 10/11/2017 at 8:33 PM, 7by7 said:

Don't you believe a few mates down the pub represent the opinion of a whole town!

 

  This is far more representive of how the British fishermen feel.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:03 PM, nontabury said:

And who exactly branded them as idiots? Absolute Rubbish.

Visited Grimsby in September, they ALL want out.

The only fish now landed in Grimsby and Hull, is from Foreign owed trawlers.

No one is expecting the fishing fleet to grow pre 1975, but it WILL grow.

 

 

 

I totally agree Nontabury. Utter Tosh and typical scaremongering.

 

The snippets from todays article says it all really. It wouldn't be a bad thing if people could eat more, cheaper fish than the crap they eat now.

 

In todays paper the exact is stated from the fishing industry.

 

"Long-neglected ports such as Lowestoft, Grimsby and Whitby could be given a new lease of life, along with Cornish coastal towns and seaside resorts such as Scarborough. 

At the moment 60 per cent of Britain’s fishing stock, worth £650million a year, is caught by foreign vessels from the EU."

 

"At a meeting at historic Fishmongers’ Hall in London last week, the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations and the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation predicted that reclaiming control of British waters would be one of the “great successes” of Brexit."

 

"The SFF has forecast that the fishing industry could grow by 50 per cent to be worth around £1.2billion a year, triggering an expansion in overall UK economic output and employment worth £2.7billion and 30,000 jobs."

 

"Under the Common Fisheries Policy, EU vessels caught 10 times more fish from our waters than we did in theirs in 2016. 

European fishermen landed 173 times more herring, 45 times more whiting, 16 times more mackerel and 14 times more haddock and cod from our waters, according to research by Dr Ian Napier, of the NAFC Marine Centre in the Shetlands."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/878449/brexit-news-uk-latest-eu-fishing-industry-economy-michael-gove-fish-region

Edited November 12, 2017 by Laughing Gravy
To stop the 'Forum Rules Police' moaning

[Grouse]

What has any of this to do with the OP? Nothing, just deflection!

 

Can we get back on topic?

 

Why does May wish to write a specific date into law when it's not necessary? Again, just to keep the Con Party right wing Brexiters happy. NOT for the good of the country.

 

I hope the Lords spike her guns just for fun! Useless boiler?

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

What has any of this to do with the OP? Nothing, just deflection!

 

Can we get back on topic?

 

Why does May wish to write a specific date into law when it's not necessary? Again, just to keep the Con Party right wing Brexiters happy. NOT for the good of the country.

 

I hope the Lords spike her guns just for fun! Useless boiler?

To quote from the OP:-

 

"We’ve listened to members of the public and Parliament and have made this change to remove any confusion or concern about what 'exit day' means," Brexit minister David Davis said in a statement"

 

Everyone needs an end to the uncertainty.  It gives businesses time to plan for the future and will ensure both sides realise they have v little time to 'bugger around'/pursue an agenda - they would actually have to quickly negotiate a deal .

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To quote from the OP:-

 

"We’ve listened to members of the public and Parliament and have made this change to remove any confusion or concern about what 'exit day' means," Brexit minister David Davis said in a statement"

 

Everyone needs an end to the uncertainty.  It gives businesses time to plan for the future and will ensure both sides realise they have v little time to 'bugger around'/pursue an agenda - they would actually have to quickly negotiate a deal .

You believe that? Do you believe in Father Christmas as well? How nice for you. 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To quote from the OP:-

 

"We’ve listened to members of the public and Parliament and have made this change to remove any confusion or concern about what 'exit day' means," Brexit minister David Davis said in a statement"

 

Everyone needs an end to the uncertainty.  It gives businesses time to plan for the future and will ensure both sides realise they have v little time to 'bugger around'/pursue an agenda - they would actually have to quickly negotiate a deal .

 

Just now, Grouse said:

You believe that? Do you believe in Father Christmas as well? How nice for you. 

It's always gratifying to receive an insult (as opposed to a reasoned response) to a post .

 

One of these days you will hopefully realise you're not incredibly intelligent (not that it's relevant on 'brexit' threads, which rely on crystal ball gazing) - just another "idiot" posting personal opinions.....

 

But I doubt you'll ever realise this .

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

It's always gratifying to receive an insult (as opposed to a reasoned response) to a post .

 

One of these days you will hopefully realise you're not incredibly intelligent (not that it's relevant on 'brexit' threads, which rely on crystal ball gazing) - just another "idiot" posting personal opinions.....

 

But I doubt you'll ever realise this .

I am not incredibly intelligent. I am credibly intelligent. Thank you ?

 

I find many Con statements incredible. I am surprised that you find them credible!

 

Credo - Latin - to believe

Edited November 12, 2017 by Grouse

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To quote from the OP:-

 

"We’ve listened to members of the public and Parliament and have made this change to remove any confusion or concern about what 'exit day' means," Brexit minister David Davis said in a statement"

 

Everyone needs an end to the uncertainty.  It gives businesses time to plan for the future and will ensure both sides realise they have v little time to 'bugger around'/pursue an agenda - they would actually have to quickly negotiate a deal .

 

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You believe that? Do you believe in Father Christmas as well? How nice for you. 

 

18 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

It's always gratifying to receive an insult (as opposed to a reasoned response) to a post .

 

One of these days you will hopefully realise you're not incredibly intelligent (not that it's relevant on 'brexit' threads, which rely on crystal ball gazing) - just another "idiot" posting personal opinions.....

 

But I doubt you'll ever realise this .

 

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I am not incredibly intelligent. I am credibly intelligent. Thank you ?

I agree.  You're far from incredibly intelligent.

 

And you still haven't answered the points raised in my post... preferring to rely on self-aggrandisement/condescension and other diversionary tactics.

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To quote from the OP:-

 

"We’ve listened to members of the public and Parliament and have made this change to remove any confusion or concern about what 'exit day' means," Brexit minister David Davis said in a statement"

 

Everyone needs an end to the uncertainty.  It gives businesses time to plan for the future and will ensure both sides realise they have v little time to 'bugger around'/pursue an agenda - they would actually have to quickly negotiate a deal .

It does not provide an end to the uncertainty. Businesses still do not know what the arrangements post the end date will entail , and therefore cannot plan for the future. 

As for ensuring both sides have little time , then Art 50 did this itself , the enshrining of the exit date does not preclude a transition or implementation period where the status quo remains

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

I agree.  You're far from incredibly intelligent.

 

And you still haven't answered the points raised in my post... preferring to rely on self-aggrandisement/condescension and other diversionary tactics.

I didn't think you expect a reply to a rhetorical post

 

But if you insist 

 

An ivory handled revolver ends uncertainty but is not recommended

 

Unilaterally taking variables off the table in an important negotiation shows gross naivety ( not nativity)

 

Once again, this silly move is to pacify the Komodo wing of the Con Party. Nothing to do with ending uncertainty. Just May having to show her knickers to prove she is a Brexiter.

 

Finally, setting a leave day in concrete unnecessarily just makes crashing out ( blaming EU intransigence) more likely

 

Dont you realise that the Komodo Cons want to crash out and form an offshore low wage, low tax, low benefit, low environmental protection economy for plutocrats and feudal peasants ( not Grouse)

 

Happy now? In short, it won't go the way you want ? (whichever way that is)

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, rockingrobin said:

It does not provide an end to the uncertainty. Businesses still do not know what the arrangements post the end date will entail , and therefore cannot plan for the future. 

As for ensuring both sides have little time , then Art 50 did this itself , the enshrining of the exit date does not preclude a transition or implementation period where the status quo remains

True, but if the leave date is enshrined by the UK parliament, businesses (and the EU) know that it is time to start planning for brexit at a set date.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

True, but if the leave date is enshrined by the UK parliament, businesses (and the EU) know that it is time to start planning for brexit at a set date.

No no no

[rockingrobin]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

True, but if the leave date is enshrined by the UK parliament, businesses (and the EU) know that it is time to start planning for brexit at a set date.

Which direction do they plan for?

Continuing regulation conformity or divergence.Access to the SM or no access.Border and customs paperwork and checks or a frictionless regime. 

None of the above will be clarified by enshrining the exit date in law.

The only result of such action is to deny parliament a meaningful vote on the final deal.

[7by7]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:18 AM, nontabury said:

This is the second post in which you suggest that I listen to people in the pub. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but I’ve never visited a pub in Grimsby in my whole life.

Then where and how did you manage to talk to the entire population of Grimsby? 

 

Or was your comment

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:03 PM, nontabury said:

Visited Grimsby in September, they ALL want out.

typical Brexiteer hyperbole?

 

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:18 AM, nontabury said:

Drag yourself away from the computer 7x7, there’s a whole world out there.

Indeed there is; a world I'd prefer the UK to be part of.

 

11 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

  This is far more representive of how the British fishermen feel.

It's representative of how Mike Hookham, a UKIP MEP, feels.

 

No doubt, like his boss Farage, he will be happy to pocket his MEP 'redundancy' money as well as his MEP pension and private health care for him and his family for life; the cost of which will be added to the UK's divorce bill! (British MEPs in line for €6m 'golden goodbye' when UK leaves EU).

 

If he cares so much about the plight of British fishermen there are charities to which he can donate this money; but I very much doubt he cares enough to give up any of his windfall.

 

You earlier disparaged a report from the Grimsby Telegraph as biased and totally unreliable because that paper supported Remain. Surely logic dictates that you must feel the same about any report from a UKIP MEP? 

 

I suspect that you will answer 'No' because you only consider reports and opinions to be biased and unreliable when they disagree with you.!

 

The same, of course, goes for the Express article quoted by Laughing Gravy. If you don't trust one newspaper because it backed one side in the referendum, you cannot trust another for doing the same!

 

But again, as you supported the same side as the Express, you no doubt do not apply the same standard to them as you do to the Grimsby Telegraph.

 

Finally, some facts: Will Britain’s fishermen be better off after Brexit?

Quote

 while the Scottish fishing fleet depends relatively little on non-UK waters, the English fleet traditionally catches its fish in Irish, French and Norwegian, as well as UK, waters. “Retaining access to those waters will be an essential demand for the UK,” he says.

Indeed; it's essentially a quid pro quo situation; you let us fish in your waters and we'll let you fish in ours.

 

Quote

the UK fishing industry depends heavily on exports to the EU, so is vulnerable to tariffs. Britain exported £921m of fish (including £224m salmon) to the EU in 2015, whereas total landings (the amount brought to the UK) were worth £775m. “Countries such as France and Spain would have every incentive to demand high tariffs on fish imports from the UK,” says Mr Lebrecht.

Hmm, seems we export more fish to the EU then we import from them!

 

Quote

UK vessels benefit from rights to fish large quantities of cod in North Norwegian waters that are “paid for” by transfers to Norway of other stocks which are mainly of value to other EU countries.

Again, a huge blow to the British fishing fleet if it can no longer fish in these waters!

 

Of course, as that report comes from the Remain supporting Financial Times you will no doubt simply dismiss it as biased and so totally unreliable!