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Spanish PM, in Catalonia, calls for big turnout at December election

By Sam Edwards

 

Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy (R) talks to Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria before the weekly cabinet control session at Parliament in Madrid, Spain, November 8, 2017. REUTERS/Sergio Perez

 

BARCELONA - Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy urged Catalans to turn out in force in a December election to "restore normality" to a region buffeted by attempts to split from Spain.

 

In his first visit to Barcelona since Madrid imposed direct rule on Catalonia and sacked its separatist leaders, Rajoy said the Dec. 21 election would safeguard the economy and stop companies moving out of the economically important region.

 

"We want a massive turnout to begin a new political era of tranquillity, normality, coexistence and respect," Rajoy told the Catalan wing of his conservative People’s Party (PP).

 

“We must urgently bring back normality to Catalonia ... to reduce social tension and stop damage to the economy.”

 

Despite opposition to the early election imposed by Madrid as a way to resolve the impasse, the two leading pro-independence parties, PDeCAT of deposed leader Carles Puigdemont, and the ERC, have said they will participate.

 

However, they failed to agree to run on a united ticket, potentially harming the separatist camp’s chances of winning a majority in the regional parliament.

 

The far-left pro-independence CUP party, whose support was key to Puigdemont’s government, decided on Sunday to run in the

upcoming election.

 

Madrid’s imposition of direct rule on Catalonia has widened a rift between political parties both in regional politics and at the municipal level.

 

On Sunday, the party of Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau voted to break its pact to govern with the Catalan Socialist Party (PSC), citing the latter’s support for the application of direct rule.

 

Some 54 percent of Spaniards evaluate positively Madrid’s handling of the Catalan crisis, but only 28 percent of Catalans share this view, according to a poll for newspaper El Pais.

 

On Saturday, 750,000 people marched in Barcelona to call for the release of separatist leaders from pre-trial detention.

 

(Editing by Robin Pomeroy/Richard Balmforth)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-11-13

[Stargeezr]

Vote or Else.  Guess that is what the scared leaders are saying..

Good Luck Spain sounds like you need it.

Geezer

[Kiwiken]

And what if the majority vote pro seperatist?

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, Kiwiken said:

And what if the majority vote pro seperatist?

Based on my frequent travels to Cataluna, I predict that the result will be 51/49 or 49/51.

Next: the same vaudeville as with brexit.

We need to rethink the concept of democracy. The idea that the 50% + 1 can decide whatever  over the 50% - 1 does not work. It is a recipe for civil war.

[Kiwiken]

On 11/13/2017 at 8:35 PM, oldhippy said:

Based on my frequent travels to Cataluna, I predict that the result will be 51/49 or 49/51.

Next: the same vaudeville as with brexit.

We need to rethink the concept of democracy. The idea that the 50% + 1 can decide whatever  over the 50% - 1 does not work. It is a recipe for civil war.

I agree with you 50+1 is ok for simple things but such things as Social Change and other important features should be 65%+ to gain a majority that way at least you can say 65% of those who bothered to vote agreed with the motion . Yes 51% in favour or not in favour of Independence is not a true majority

[tifino]

 

Goliath cannot keep tabs on every little David...  

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Story-behind-iconic-photo-of-Catalonia-s-independence-fight.r1FFItcTGInb.html

 

[Morch]

On 11/15/2017 at 6:19 AM, Kiwiken said:

I agree with you 50+1 is ok for simple things but such things as Social Change and other important features should be 65%+ to gain a majority that way at least you can say 65% of those who bothered to vote agreed with the motion . Yes 51% in favour or not in favour of Independence is not a true majority

 

Could be a combo of majority and level of participation, with regard to major decisions. I think one problem is that referendums seems to encourage oversimplification of issues, whereas they are usually called when complex matters (with serious consequences) arise.

[Kiwiken]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Could be a combo of majority and level of participation, with regard to major decisions. I think one problem is that referendums seems to encourage oversimplification of issues, whereas they are usually called when complex matters (with serious consequences) arise.

I understand your point. The sad thing is today Governments seem to think they are only one capable of decision making. As as such this keeps the populace dumbed down and therefore supports their views. having to decide you Countries future with more than just a token vote would force people to take more interest. We are little more than Serfs because we think everything is too complex. There are no hard Questions just hard answers created by those who wish to keep us in the Dark.

[LaoPo]

The Madrid/Spanish press is mainly pro-Rajoy and Rajoy could face a big surprise if the turnout is going to be very big on December 21st.

 

He made a huge mistake by taking democratically elected government members in custody and put them in jail and not listen to the deeper feeling of the Catalans; The Catalans have suffered badly during the Franco dictatorship.

 

But at first "Madrid" made a terrible mistake to send heavy guarded troops into Barcelona and beat up innocent demonstrators.

Catalans have not forgotten about these issues.

 

It could turn out to be a big surprise but we will see.

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

I understand your point. The sad thing is today Governments seem to think they are only one capable of decision making. As as such this keeps the populace dumbed down and therefore supports their views. having to decide you Countries future with more than just a token vote would force people to take more interest. We are little more than Serfs because we think everything is too complex. There are no hard Questions just hard answers created by those who wish to keep us in the Dark.

 

I think referendums do not necessarily promote public participation in politics, but sometimes serve as a convenient tool for populist agendas.

 

Quote

We are little more than Serfs because we think everything is too complex. There are no hard Questions just hard answers created by those who wish to keep us in the Dark.

 

Can't really relate to that, sounds more like a couple of slogans stitched together then a well thought out position.

[oldhippy]

As an example of how a change of the constitution could be organised:

Belgium:

 

First parliament has to agree with a simple majority (50%+1) on which articles CAN be changed by NEXT parliament, AFTER elections.

The new parliament then needs a DOUBLE majority of 66% (from both Flemish and Walloons) to change the constitution.

I am not saying this is a perfect solution for every country, but it illustrates how the 50%+1 rule can be improved.

 

[LaoPo]

6 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

As an example of how a change of the constitution could be organised:

Belgium:

 

First parliament has to agree with a simple majority (50%+1) on which articles CAN be changed by NEXT parliament, AFTER elections.

The new parliament then needs a DOUBLE majority of 66% (from both Flemish and Walloons) to change the constitution.

I am not saying this is a perfect solution for every country, but it illustrates how the 50%+1 rule can be improved.

 

 

Interesting but do you think that will be possible in Spain/Catalunya? 

I fear not.

 

Also, I think the 50%+1 rule is shoving the -eventual and possible- change of constitution to the NEXT parliament which is weird actually since many things can change or happen in politics...

 

....look what happened in France where a non-existing political party: "LA REPUBLIQUE EN MARCHE" (founded only in 2016) took the majority and delivered Emmanuel Macron as President with a majority of 308 out of 577 seats and THAT with the FIRST elections for his party.

 

For Spain & Catalunya, the party is not over yet, it's just beginning.

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

True, in Spain there would never be a 66% majority amongst the people or parliamentarians from the rest of Spain.

But the idea of a 2 step vote in parliament (+ endorsement in a referendum?) seems reasonable? It would at least create a cooling off period, and more clarity about the consequenses.

 

 

 

[LaoPo]

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

True, in Spain there would never be a 66% majority amongst the people or parliamentarians from the rest of Spain.

But the idea of a 2 step vote in parliament (+ endorsement in a referendum?) seems reasonable? It would at least create a cooling off period, and more clarity about the consequenses.

 

 

 

 

Now, THAT would be the perfect solution for an honest "to-Brexit-or-not-to-Brexit"...a 2nd election which the Brexiteers would lose, no doubt.

The young voters, who stupidly stayed away during the Brexit referendum voting will "en masse" vote for REMAIN.

 

Good idea 

 

But to stay on topic: The Catalans are p1ssed off because they contribute the most to the Spanish GDP economy but don't get their fair share back from Madrid whilst the poor interior provinces are subsidised heavily, next to the enormous corruption by the Madrid government and Spanish banks and financial institutions (including Royalty..!), present and past.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by LaoPo