Do Expats of Thailand get an undeserved stigma?

[smotherb]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

I don't think it's so much the expats that drive the stigma, it's the girls that work the bars and those that come here on a 2-3 week holiday - they both share the blame

 

Expats are harder to exploit and the bar girls now try to avoid them and to an extent the expats would tend to avoid the girls too, we "just like at home" are creatures of habit and tend to find our steady local for a beer, the point I am making is that places like Pattaya have changed - the girls attitude and focus towards extracting money has changed.

 

This is what the girls have learned to target over the years passed down and finely tuned by the older ladies that have been around 

 

 

1. On Holiday 2-3 weeks

2. Spending as much as 10k baht a day

3. Have a job back home

4. Ring the bell 3-4 times a night

5. Buy lady drinks

6. Are stupid enough to commit to sending money from back home

 

Expats in general equal none of the above and have a totally different set of goals when it comes to girls

 

 

 

I think you may be confusing tourists and expats. The expats to whom you seem to refer are retirees or others who live here on the Thai economy and do not spend much money in the bars. However, there are other expats who do enjoy the bars.  Some expats who live here work on foreign wages, others have lucrative retirements, still others make good money here; they can afford to buy ladies drinks, ring the bell or even spend B10k in one day and many do. These expats are not the focus of the stigma I see. I know Thais who buy ladies drinks, ring the bell--well, more often the Thai version, picking up the tab for all--and spend B10k or more in one day.  Doing so only amounts to partying, if you have the wherewithal to do so.

 

I see little of the stigma placed on the girls; ladies of negotiable virtue and all that surrounds them existed in Thailand long before any foreigner. I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar.  Sure there are tourists who cause problems, but the stigma I see is from those who try to live here in juxtaposition to Thai society.

[Bogbrush]

I agree; I try and behave in the clean/polite/smiley manner, not only because in the end you only attract drama doing otherwise, but also (cue mocking comments) I am English and proud of the fact, and if I can in some small way project that concept in the tiniest manner (tidying up my room before the maid comes, holding a door open for a lady, and the like) maybe a Thai will go home that night and say “you know, I’ve actually met a farang who’s OK”. If I achieve that, then I consider I’ve also done OK. You can laugh now...

[smedly]

9 hours ago, smotherb said:

I think you may be confusing tourists and expats. The expats to whom you seem to refer are retirees or others who live here on the Thai economy and do not spend much money in the bars. However, there are other expats who do enjoy the bars.  Some expats who live here work on foreign wages, others have lucrative retirements, still others make good money here; they can afford to buy ladies drinks, ring the bell or even spend B10k in one day and many do. These expats are not the focus of the stigma I see. I know Thais who buy ladies drinks, ring the bell--well, more often the Thai version, picking up the tab for all--and spend B10k or more in one day.  Doing so only amounts to partying, if you have the wherewithal to do so.

 

I see little of the stigma placed on the girls; ladies of negotiable virtue and all that surrounds them existed in Thailand long before any foreigner. I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar.  Sure there are tourists who cause problems, but the stigma I see is from those who try to live here in juxtaposition to Thai society.

yes correct, there are sort of 3 categories of people, there are those that would be classed as true expats that are actually here on business, but the general term from the OP is referring to as you correctly say - those who have retired here and calling them expats which by definition is actually incorrect they are retired 

 

but hey thanks for pointing that out

[Boon Mee]

Stigma? 

Only stigma is the perception that they have more money than the locals. 

[simoh1490]

I think it's pedantic and pointless to debate whether a retiree is an expat, the definition of expat is:

 

"An expatriate (often shortened to expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country other than that of their citizenship.

In common usage, the term often refers to professionals or skilled workers sent abroad by their employers, who can be companies, governments, or non-governmental organisations.^[1] Effectively migrant workers, they usually earn more than they would at home, and more than local employees.

However, the term 'expatriate' is also used for retirees and others who have chosen to live outside their native country. Historically, it has also referred to exiles.^"2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate

 

[smotherb]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

yes correct, there are sort of 3 categories of people, there are those that would be classed as true expats that are actually here on business, but the general term from the OP is referring to as you correctly say - those who have retired here and calling them expats which by definition is actually incorrect they are retired 

 

but hey thanks for pointing that out

It seems you missed the point. First, an expat is a person who lives outside their native country. There is no requirement that they work; so a foreign retiree, or simply a foreigner, living here can indeed be an expat. Second, as I stated, I disagree with your assumption that it is the tourists and the bar girls alone, or even for the most part, which incur the stigma. I believe it is the low-life expats who cause the stigma. As I said,  "I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar."

[smedly]

25 minutes ago, smotherb said:

It seems you missed the point. First, an expat is a person who lives outside their native country. There is no requirement that they work; so a foreign retiree, or simply a foreigner, living here can indeed be an expat. Second, as I stated, I disagree with your assumption that it is the tourists and the bar girls alone, or even for the most part, which incur the stigma. I believe it is the low-life expats who cause the stigma. As I said,  "I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar."

well yes I know that, read OP listen to the video, follow the whole thing

 

who are the people that he is referring too 

 

I will break it down so it is easier to understand

 

3 groups of people from the west in Thailand

 

- those on holiday

- those that are not on holiday and have retired here (could be referred to as Expats)

- those who are working here through their business (could also be referred to as Expats)

 

now just take your pick as to who the OP article is referring too............up to you

 

 

what a stupid waste of time

[smotherb]

30 minutes ago, smedly said:

well yes I know that, read OP listen to the video, follow the whole thing

 

who are the people that he is referring too 

 

I will break it down so it is easier to understand

 

3 groups of people from the west in Thailand

 

- those on holiday

- those that are not on holiday and have retired here (could be referred to as Expats)

- those who are working here through their business (could also be referred to as Expats)

 

now just take your pick as to who the OP article is referring too............up to you

 

 

what a stupid waste of time

Well, it seems you once again misunderstand what has been said. However, you seem to understand your comments were such a stupid waste of time; why did you not forego them?

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[korkenzieher]

14 hours ago, smotherb said:

I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar.  Sure there are tourists who cause problems, but the stigma I see is from those who try to live here in juxtaposition to Thai society.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. In my experience, Thais have nothing but contempt for farang that try to 'ape' the Thai way of doing things. Thais, almost universally, aspire to *be* the westerners they see. At least outside the likes of Pattaya and Patong, such as those on TV, shopping in up-scale malls, and cruising around in 'Tuners. There are few that have the money, or worldliness, to look down on the standard lower middle-class retiree. And those that do (the 'HiSos') probably catch as much contempt and resentment from the remaining Thai as the worst expats do. If not more. As for living frugally, I might point out that we are in Thailand - not Bermuda, or Monaco. Frugal goes with the territory. And the overwhelming majority try not to attract attention to ourselves in any overt, or dramatic fashion - what I would term 'flying under the radar'. Those that exist *alongside* the Thais, with comparatively little friction, but not specifically attempting to become one of them, or imitate them, get by far the highest degree of respect from them.

[smotherb]

2 minutes ago, korkenzieher said:

 

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. In my experience, Thais have nothing but contempt for farang that try to 'ape' the Thai way of doing things. Thais, almost universally, aspire to *be* the westerners they see. At least outside the likes of Pattaya and Patong, such as those on TV, shopping in up-scale malls, and cruising around in 'Tuners. There are few that have the money, or worldliness, to look down on the standard lower middle-class retiree. And those that do (the 'HiSos') probably catch as much contempt and resentment from the remaining Thai as the worst expats do. If not more. As for living frugally, I might point out that we are in Thailand - not Bermuda, or Monaco. Frugal goes with the territory. And the overwhelming majority try not to attract attention to ourselves in any overt, or dramatic fashion - what I would term 'flying under the radar'. Those that exist *alongside* the Thais, with comparatively little friction, but not specifically attempting to become one of them, or imitate them, get by far the highest degree of respect from them.

Well, back at you with the disagreement. It appears you felt included in the low-life expats because you live frugally.  I live in Thailand, and I do not live frugally, neither do most of my friends; farang or Thai.  So your statement that, "Frugal goes with the territory," is inconsistent with my reality. I'll wager the majority of those who live frugally here, have to because they do not have enough to live otherwise.

 

Most expats, I believe, live here for a combination of reasons--climate, girls, more relaxed lifestyle, cost of living, etc. Certainly, there is a cost difference between living here and back home. I like the fact I rent a very nice large house at approximately 1/3 of the price I lease one of my small apartments in the States or that I can get some delightful street food for mere pennies. However, western foods, alcohol, tobacco, etc., modern appliances, electronics automobiles, etc., are more expensive here. So, unless you try to live as a poor Thai, I fail to see that frugal goes with the territory.

 

You certainly appear to be enamored with Westerners. The Thais are not necessarily trying to emulate Westerners, the Japanese and Koreans have every bit of that " . . . TV, shopping in up-scale malls, and cruising around in 'Tuners . . . " the Thais are simply trying to enjoy a modern life-style and its conveniences. Those who do certainly do not have to live in cold-water flats with radiators and toilets down the hall as many Eurps still do.

 

Your statement, " . . . few that have the money, or worldliness . . .," makes me laugh. You must know only the lower class Thais, but with your frugal existence, what else could I expect. My Thai friends own businesses, travel overseas, own nice homes, drive European cars and ride Harleys. Are they the majority? No, but there seems to be a sufficient number of them--look around you, well maybe not in your ghetto, but in the well-to do areas of wherever you live. Look at the nice homes, the expensive cars the expensive restaurants and clubs they frequent--and the malls you so casually mentioned. There is a significant upper class here in Thailand and I find that many of them welcome foreign friends, at least those foreigners who are not so frugal they argue over how many of the cheapest beers they had.

 

As I said, " I think the stigma on expats is directed toward that segment who refuse to acclimate to Thai customs/culture/norms and who live as frugally as possible, under dubious circumstances, or try to exist under the radar. "

 

By the way, "acclimate" does not mean " . . . attempting to become one of them, or imitate them . . ."

[GoldenTriangle]

Why do any of these people sticking their oars in give any kind of shit what goes on in Pattaya? What's it to you, unless you're a member of the Pattaya civic boosters club. All this moralizing about the behavior of others is laughable.

[geriatrickid]

On 11/18/2017 at 10:58 PM, Briggsy said:

Very true. You should see the shows on British tv "exposing" Pattaya. They don't make pretty viewing.

 

A typical scene would find the ugliest, meanest-looking, most vulgar bloke, already inebriated, with the broadest accent that would offend the most UK viewers (Doncaster or Blackburn should do the trick), wind him up with some negative comments about Pattaya, ensure the tiny, childlike bargirl sat on his lap looking for all the world like a trafficking victim is in focus. Get him to make some negative comments about British women et voila. Great ratings and disgusted living rooms up and down the UK, guaranteed.

It's not hard to find such people. Why is it almost every Youtube video for Pattaya features such people, or the depressing bar sois and their denizens? Seek out a video for Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Ayuthaya, Surat thani, krabi, Ubon, Udon etc and one gets a much more wholesome variety.  Pattaya is an oozing  boil that should have been lanced long ago and the  residents packed off to education and rehabilitation facilities long ago.

 

 

On 11/19/2017 at 10:43 AM, Bogbrush said:

I agree; I try and behave in the clean/polite/smiley manner, not only because in the end you only attract drama doing otherwise, but also (cue mocking comments) I am English and proud of the fact, and if I can in some small way project that concept in the  tiniest manner 

(tidying up my room before the maid comes, holding a door open for a lady, and the like) maybe a Thai will go home that night and say “you know, I’ve actually met a farang who’s OK”. If I achieve that, then I consider I’ve also done OK. You can laugh now...

A gentleman. Surely you can't really live in Pattaya? You would be a rarity then.

And yes, I too tidy up before the help arrives.  

 

13 hours ago, GoldenTriangle said:

Why do any of these people sticking their oars in give any kind of shit what goes on in Pattaya? What's it to you, unless you're a member of the Pattaya civic boosters club. All this moralizing about the behavior of others is laughable.

It may come as a shock, but much of the negative  treatment foreigners and their Thai partners receive when they attempt to go to other countries is because of the  depravity and  lawlessness of Pattaya. The western fetish porn films are made in Pattaya, not in  Ubon. The boiler room operations when not in Bangkok, are in Pattaya, not in  Ao Nang, Krabi.  The sex offenders who are charged and prosecuted in the west almost always have a Pattaya connection. This doesn't mean they are not found elsewhere, but Pattaya is a red flag.

 

Athletic, young, fit people do not make in Pattaya their target destination, . Active people into hiking, diving, climbing etc. do not hang about Pattaya.  However,  people who like to sing the praises of an all you can eat buffet and who perch on a bar stool nursing a Leo while  chatting up ugly hookers do. Nothing is easier to ridicule than a fat guy with bad teeth, wearing a stained singlet and that's what one sees in the Pattaya videos. The fit sexy people who generate a positive vibe are not in Pattaya.  The active Scandinavian retirees are not in Pattaya. It's all about image, and the Pattaya image is negative, so negative that it contaminates  the rest of Thailand.

 

BTW my unit will be in Pattaya for a couple days next month.  That should be fun    I am so embarrassed I don't even show the time there in my calendar. It's designated as Laem Chabang.

 

 

 

[smedly]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

It's not hard to find such people. Why is it almost every Youtube video for Pattaya features such people, or the depressing bar sois and their denizens? Seek out a video for Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Ayuthaya, Surat thani, krabi, Ubon, Udon etc and one gets a much more wholesome variety.  Pattaya is an oozing  boil that should have been lanced long ago and the  residents packed off to education and rehabilitation facilities long ago.

 

 

A gentleman. Surely you can't really live in Pattaya? You would be a rarity then.

And yes, I too tidy up before the help arrives.  

 

It may come as a shock, but much of the negative  treatment foreigners and their Thai partners receive when they attempt to go to other countries is because of the  depravity and  lawlessness of Pattaya. The western fetish porn films are made in Pattaya, not in  Ubon. The boiler room operations when not in Bangkok, are in Pattaya, not in  Ao Nang, Krabi.  The sex offenders who are charged and prosecuted in the west almost always have a Pattaya connection. This doesn't mean they are not found elsewhere, but Pattaya is a red flag.

 

Athletic, young, fit people do not make in Pattaya their target destination, . Active people into hiking, diving, climbing etc. do not hang about Pattaya.  However,  people who like to sing the praises of an all you can eat buffet and who perch on a bar stool nursing a Leo while  chatting up ugly hookers do. Nothing is easier to ridicule than a fat guy with bad teeth, wearing a stained singlet and that's what one sees in the Pattaya videos. The fit sexy people who generate a positive vibe are not in Pattaya.  The active Scandinavian retirees are not in Pattaya. It's all about image, and the Pattaya image is negative, so negative that it contaminates  the rest of Thailand.

 

BTW my unit will be in Pattaya for a couple days next month.  That should be fun    I am so embarrassed I don't even show the time there in my calendar. It's designated as Laem Chabang.

 

 

 

so you type all this crap then at the end announce you are going to pattaya for a few days on some sort of secret mission that you don't want anyone to know about ?

 

[geriatrickid]

21 hours ago, smedly said:

so you type all this crap then at the end announce you are going to pattaya for a few days on some sort of secret mission that you don't want anyone to know about ?

 

Only secret because I am embarrassed to say I will be in Pattaya.  :)

I don't plan on visiting any "beer" bars or massage parlors so you need not worry about any competition. We're doing the Peach.  

[smedly]

14 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Only secret because I am embarrassed to say I will be in Pattaya.  :)

I don't plan on visiting any "beer" bars or massage parlors so you need not worry about any competition. We're doing the Peach.  

lol   

[jayboy]

I'm not sure this rather unprepossessing fellow is quite the right type to attempt a defense of the expatriate community.He looks and sounds like a spiv.Come to think of it I think I saw him in Oxford Street once conning suckers with the three card trick.

[Rhys]

 How they interact and treat Thai people with politeness generally does it...

[torrzent]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:21 AM, Tchooptip said:

I'm really old school I can not get used to this fashion not to shave regularly 

Go full commando expat, shave your head, but let the stubble grow to give that added street cred and toughness

[torrzent]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:58 AM, connda said:

When the face gets itchy, out with the razor.  Usually less than three days. Being retired I consider three days of stubble 'letting my hair down' so to speak.  

And to respond to a previous poster, I moved here with the intention of perhaps living here.  Well, that utter nonsense has been beat out of me by the Thai government, it's immigration services, and general Thai xenophobia for foreigners.  But I'm here and married and pretty much stuck.  Doubt I could convince the Mrs to sell her house and land and move to some beach in Mexico.   

best get his and hers kevlar vests as well as an Armored Personnel Carrier if you are considering Mexico

[torrzent]

On 11/20/2017 at 4:48 AM, smedly said:

yes correct, there are sort of 3 categories of people, there are those that would be classed as true expats that are actually here on business, but the general term from the OP is referring to as you correctly say - those who have retired here and calling them expats which by definition is actually incorrect they are retired 

 

but hey thanks for pointing that out

Good point...alot of non-expats have hijacked the "expat" label as a marketing ploy to give themselves a bit more street cred.  Some of them would not even get low end jobs wherever it is they came from.

[55Jay]

On 12/28/2017 at 8:39 AM, torrzent said:

Go full commando expat, shave your head, but let the stubble grow to give that added street cred and toughness

You forgot the tattoos.  The more the better.