Thai defamation law and online reviews

[rufanuf]

4 minutes ago, Thai Ron said:

I've left plenty of less than stellar reviews for services and products I've used and bought in Thailand.

Everything from visa/border run services to restaurants.

No comeback but a few apologies and some compensatory offers.

 

 

 

So youve figured its a great blackmail tool?

[rufanuf]

If you want to know the truth about review websites just type "trip advisor warnings" Into Google Its a real eye opener.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[sammieuk1]

Its not only Thailand  who likes to censor bad review's on a recent trip to the UK I bought a pair of shorts from Amazon UK after 3 weeks of failing to arrive then given the lame excuse that they had been denied entry by UK customs subsequently leaving me short less I tried to leave a review on my experience only to get  a reply my negative review was not in keeping with Amazon policy make it more positive and you can leave it  . 

[sanuk711]

3 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

If you want to know the truth about review websites just type "trip advisor warnings" Into Google Its a real eye opener.

Thanks for that tip rufanuf......although I have never booked through them, I do  sometimes use them (and some others) for reviews on hotels etc if I don't know the destination.

[Thai Ron]

Just now, rufanuf said:

So youve figured its a great blackmail tool?

Nope

I paid good money for services which have been shoddily delivered

I want to save others from making the mistake of doing business with poor service providers so I leave an appropriate review.

If the service is great, I leave an appropriate review too so others can enjoy the  positive experience too

 

The visa run company I left a shit review for deserved every word and more.

They didn't show up with the transport to the border leaving several people facing overstay.

I was fortunate enough to have the money to fly out same day but a lot of others didn't.

 

I posted a review on their FB page and a few of the Thai expat FB groups and they lost a lot of business as a result because i backed it up with a screenshot of all the calls I made to their number while I was waiting for their driver to show up.

I like to think that I saved many people from being screwed over by their incompetence and sheer contempt for people trying to keep their stay in Thailand legal.

[rufanuf]

1 minute ago, Thai Ron said:

Nope

I paid good money for services which have been shoddily delivered

I want to save others from making the mistake of doing business with poor service providers so I leave an appropriate review.

If the service is great, I leave an appropriate review too so others can enjoy the  positive experience too

 

The visa run company I left a shit review for deserved every word and more.

They didn't show up with the transport to the border leaving several people facing overstay.

I was fortunate enough to have the money to fly out same day but a lot of others didn't.

 

I posted a review on their FB page and a few of the Thai expat FB groups and they lost a lot of business as a result because i backed it up with a screenshot of all the calls I made to their number while I was waiting for their driver to show up.

I like to think that I saved many people from being screwed over by their incompetence and sheer contempt for people trying to keep their stay in Thailand legal.

Your first post on this thread seemed to be focused on obtaining personal gain in return for reviews, not on doing a public service.

[BadCash]

1 hour ago, rufanuf said:

I think if they removed reviewers rights to staying anonymous a lot of the flaws in the review industry would be solved

This I actually do agree with.

 

But of course that would only work if you're in a country that has realistic defamation laws and a fair judicial process... so back to square one...

Edited November 22, 2017 by BadCash

[BadCash]

3 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Your first post on this thread seemed to be focused on obtaining personal gain in return for reviews, not on doing a public service.

That's your interpretation, I think most people would interpret it differently though.

[rufanuf]

10 minutes ago, BadCash said:

This I actually do agree with!

Thanks. Most people who have something to say on the subject of reviews have not done their research, and tend too base their opinions on what they THINK these businesses are.  If they have had legal dealings with one of these large faceless platforms that make fortunes out of the general public's perception that the sites are run with integrity, they would know its a very dirty business. If you read some of the protest websites about these platforms you will find example after example of abuse, both on the part of the owners of the platforms AND their users. The abuse  of review platforms is an industry in itself

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[Thai Ron]

4 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Your first post on this thread seemed to be focused on obtaining personal gain in return for reviews, not on doing a public service.

Sorry mate, I missed that; only your bias was making such a racket

[rufanuf]

1 minute ago, BadCash said:

That's your interpretation, I think most people would interpret it differently though.

Now isn't that the whole point? Reviews are a collection of individual opinions that even on mass, may mean nothing at all to the individual who reads them. So why bother? Just find out for yourself, by trying.

[rufanuf]

Just now, Thai Ron said:

Sorry mate, I missed that; only your bias was making such a racket

As was yours

[Thai Ron]

1 minute ago, rufanuf said:

Now isn't that the whole point? Reviews are a collection of individual opinions that even on mass, may mean nothing at all to the individual who reads them. So why bother? Just find out for yourself, by trying.

You don' half talk rubbish.

Reviews are useful - they can make the difference between buying a lemon of a TV, a car, a coffee machine or whatever.

If you wanted to buy a new computer, would you go out and buy every machine on the market or would you consult a reviewer you trust to tell you what's what before spunking your money?

Would you appreciate a long term report on a computer's reliability before committing funds or have you got enough dosh to buy a new machine when your purchase conks out the day after the warranty expires?

 

If you run a business and you offer a shit service or product then the reviews are there to let people know what they risk by getting into bed with you.

If you're getting poor reviews, maybe you should reconsider your vocation.

[tifino]

I always look back on my reviews,

to see what sort of feedback my opinions got,

and on the respective booking site, I always display actual name

 

 

besides, if someone does go 'anonymous' it would still be possible for the hotel to work out who you are...

If you've had ongoing complaints with them whilst there, then a Review would reflect those same circumstances

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, rufanuf said:

KNOWONE should be able to publish reviews under a "nickname" or unverifiable ID.

Knowone? I don't no about that.

 

Actually the negatives of the reverse side of reviews is also true. On Amazon or IMDB or similar platforms,  books, other products, movies and the like receive a boatload of glowing reviews that are obviously concocted by paid reviewers or at least by friends & family of whoever benefits from the good reviews.

Doesn't hurt the companies involved but, if believed, those reviews mislead consumers.

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Suradit69

[rufanuf]

2 minutes ago, Thai Ron said:

You don' half talk rubbish.

Reviews are useful - they can make the difference between buying a lemon of a TV, a car, a coffee machine or whatever.

If you wanted to buy a new computer, would you go out and buy every machine on the market or would you consult a reviewer you trust to tell you what's what before spunking your money?

Would you appreciate a long term report on a computer's reliability before committing funds or have you got enough dosh to buy a new machine when your purchase conks out the day after the warranty expires?

 

If you run a business and you offer a shit service or product then the reviews are there to let people know what they risk by getting into bed with you.

If you're getting poor reviews, maybe you should reconsider your vocation.

Firstly. So this is your review of the review industry right? And it's different to mine. So who is right? I am saying it's a shit service, based on my research  your saying its useful. It's all still just opinion. So we could argue then that its the "majority opinion" that becomes useful to gain a picture of a service or product, but if it then comes to light that this mass opinion is subject to mass manipulation are you still so sure that its useful?

 

As I have stated already in this thread, our business keeps getting "certificates of excellence" and we have multiple 5 star overall reviews. Did I buy them or did I earn them? Whats the difference? You don't know, so how can this information be useful to you?

[BadCash]

9 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Firstly. So this is your review of the review industry right? And it's different to mine. So who is right? I am saying it's a shit service, based on my research  your saying its useful. It's all still just opinion. So we could argue then that its the "majority opinion" that becomes useful to gain a picture of a service or product, but if it then comes to light that this mass opinion is subject to mass manipulation are you still so sure that its useful?

 

As I have stated already in this thread, our business keeps getting "certificates of excellence" and we have multiple 5 star overall reviews. Did I buy them or did I earn them? Whats the difference? You don't know, so how can this information be useful to you?

Personally I believe I can tell a fake review from a real one most of the time, but I can see how more novice internet users could be duped. 

 

There are ways for review platforms to detect fake reviews, see for example this story about potentially bought IMDb ratings. Also, if one platform is found to not deal with fake reviews then eventually people will stop trusting it and move on to ones that are better equipped to do so. That's part of the reason I personally don't use TripAdvisor anymore, it seems that most of the stories about questionable reviews are related to that particular platform.

Edited November 22, 2017 by BadCash

[rufanuf]

Just now, BadCash said:

Personally I believe I can tell a fake review from a real one most of the time, but I can see how more novice internet users could be duped. 

 

There are ways for review platforms to detect fake reviews, see for example this story about potentially bought IMDb ratings. Also, if one platform is found to not deal with fake reviews then eventually people will stop trusting it and move on to ones that are better equipped to do so. That's part of the reason I personally don't use TripAdvisor anymore, it seems that most of the fakers go there to leave their reviews.

I think its good that you have identified this, I would agree with it as FACT what you have stated. When review websites only allow reviews to be published in peoples full names it would be a step in the right direction. Then they just have to eradicate the mass professional review writing industry...but that will be very difficult to do, because real people are being employed in real salaried jobs to write reviews. They are not "fakes" as such, but they are PAID to write reviews, how does the industry get around that conundrum?

[tifino]

 

 a booking site forum wouldn't keep any obviously defaming Review online - Fake or Not!

 

 

self-preservation of the webmaster prevails

 

 

A legit reviewer will properly register, is it is in their own financial interest, down the line, when they build up enough Bonus Points, for acceptable reviews

 

Bonus Points that go towards a Discount for Future bookings done through them

[Thai Ron]

23 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Firstly. So this is your review of the review industry right? And it's different to mine. So who is right? I am saying it's a shit service, based on my research  your saying its useful. It's all still just opinion. So we could argue then that its the "majority opinion" that becomes useful to gain a picture of a service or product, but if it then comes to light that this mass opinion is subject to mass manipulation are you still so sure that its useful?

 

As I have stated already in this thread, our business keeps getting "certificates of excellence" and we have multiple 5 star overall reviews. Did I buy them or did I earn them? Whats the difference? You don't know, so how can this information be useful to you?

OK well put it this way; I've yet to be let down by the reviewers I trust - I can't speak for others.

[Autonuaq]

Personnaly i have a case with a lawyer and his office who translated documents and certified them.

The translation was needed for legalisation and certification of court case and able to register all in my home country.

The ministery of foreigen affairs (MFA) refused the documents. Translated and a few other things.

Even the thai names where written wrong in transalation and the id cards where provided.

 

When asked to provide the correct the director if the law firm who is not a thai start to threaten me with law suites and that I was wrong.

Thai law would take care of me if pr.

 

the email and documents provided to the (MFA) and they helped me out with a office that not only made the correct translation and legalisation to my supprice the MFA also had stamped them and could use them straight away.

 

The law firm and the foreigners director who is director can not do much about. Only tell how good I was helped by others in this.

 

Recently found they did also do something wrong and another law firm is now correcting this.

 

Thai law has it ways, not different from other western count  and each has is own things that are special and unique.

 

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, Thai Ron said:

OK well put it this way; I've yet to be let down by the reviewers I trust - I can't speak for others.

I would suggest the only reviews anyone can trust are personal recommendations from someone they know.

 

Badcashes original post was about defamation online. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, my point really was that there is a fine line between defamation and misrepresentation. Personally I just think review style websites suck. They full of both issues.

 

 

[robblok]

I would define a negative review as any criticism of a business full stop. The business may not want the listing they have forced upon them, let alone the criticism, and that should be their right.

I disagree with you here people should be allowed to give negative reviews. It helps to bring down dishonest businesses. I once stayed at a hotel showing a huge swimmingpool. In reality it was a really small one. Had i known that i might have selected an other place as the pool was one of the things that made me choose that place.

I think good businesses have little to fear in general. Making names known does not level the Playing field but shifts the advantage to businessowners to launch lawsuits.

Sure if there is really a case of defamation the option to sue should be open but here in Thailand its a criminal case and that would give business owners too much power.

I get your concerns i have been defamed on the internet by a ex client but praised by far more. I did not lose sleep over it as you can't make everyone happy.

I would worry if a organised campaign was launched by a competitor. Not by a few people who simply were not happy.

Readers see countless good reviews and 1 bad one then they really don't care about the bad one.

It sucks if you do your best and get a negative review but that is part of doing business.

I as a consumer love reviews on products and places but don't discard a product or place because of one or two bad reviews.

If a place or product has loads of negative reviews it probably earned them and i stay away without losing money. There are 2 sides to the argument.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[Fairynuff]

5 hours ago, rufanuf said:

You perhaps ought to be asking yourself a different question. Why would you wish to post negative reviews about a business? Would it not be simpler simply to vote with your feet and never return? There's an old saying that goes "If you haven't got something positive to say, don't say anything at all."  Its conventional wisdom that proceeds the internet by about ten thousand years, and generally is the right way to deal with society.

 

If your a business owner and you have had ANY negative reviews on these pathetic websites you would feel as though it is grossly unfair if you are simply doing your best to make your way in the world. I actually don't think Thai defamation laws are insane AT ALL. I think it's right to suggest that publicly bad mouthing someones right to try and earn a crust by providing a service or facility that encourages MASS criticismn is wrong, which is effectively what the internet allows, and the parasite organisations that live off this criticism ought to be shut down. You try writing something negative on Trip Advisor about Tripadvisor. See how far it gets you!

Millions of people read and write reviews on these “pathetic “ websites. Many businesses actively encourage people to share their experiences. Of course they only want positive reviews which is why they take such notice and act upon the negative reviews by improving their standards and services. Complete nonsense to say just vote with your feet because the rogues just get away with it and those who genuinely want to make things right and improve their standards just wouldn’t know if they’ve gone wrong.

 

[bazza73]

20 hours ago, midas said:

I'll give you an insane example of how I was threatened five years ago.

I'm an Australian and I was trying to get a consistent and regular supply of an Australian product on the shelves of one of the big supermarkets in this country.So I simply sent an email to Australia and explained that their agent in Thailand ( also Australian apparently) didn't seem to be ensuring that there was an uninterrupted supply of their product here.

After a while I received an email totally out of the blue from their Thai lawyer who was threatening me with defamation proceedings because of my email. It came to nothing but I think it was because the Australian manufacturer stuck up for me and probably told them to back off.

But it's a very uncomfortable feeling when you receive such a threatening email. But that shows how this law is being abused in this country.

Vegemite?

[bazza73]

It's not too hard - don't post reviews, and don't go back.

Word of mouth is useful - it's much harder to get a defamation case going when it's a slander instead of a libel.

[tifino]

depends upon the timeframe;

 as to whether that was before of after, the ownership of Kraft passed back into Ozzie hands...

[midas]

15 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Vegemite?

No that's quite easy to get in many places

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I disagree with you here people should be allowed to give negative reviews. It helps to bring down dishonest businesses. I once stayed at a hotel showing a huge swimmingpool. In reality it was a really small one. Had i known that i might have selected an other place as the pool was one of the things that made me choose that place.

I think good businesses have little to fear in general. Making names known does not level the Playing field but shifts the advantage to businessowners to launch lawsuits.

Sure if there is really a case of defamation the option to sue should be open but here in Thailand its a criminal case and that would give business owners too much power.

I get your concerns i have been defamed on the internet by a ex client but praised by far more. I did not lose sleep over it as you can't make everyone happy.

I would worry if a organised campaign was launched by a competitor. Not by a few people who simply were not happy.

Readers see countless good reviews and 1 bad one then they really don't care about the bad one.

It sucks if you do your best and get a negative review but that is part of doing business.

I as a consumer love reviews on products and places but don't discard a product or place because of one or two bad reviews.

If a place or product has loads of negative reviews it probably earned them and i stay away without losing money. There are 2 sides to the argument.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

Thats becuase your sensible man Roblok, but I have spoken to people who say they do not book ANYWHERE that has even one negative review on tripadvisor. High ideals indeed!

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

It's not too hard - don't post reviews, and don't go back.

Word of mouth is useful - it's much harder to get a defamation case going when it's a slander instead of a libel.

That's my sentiments exactly. There's been a lot of debate in the USA about "the right to be forgotten" which the internet and other forms of mass media so clearly disallows as once something negative is out there in the public domain its almost impossible to take back. I wonder how many negative review writers if asked on their deathbeds, would really wish upon anyone, a lifetime of negativity just because they had one bad experience with that person or their business in the past? And if they did wish that upon them what kind of person are they? Certainly someone worth writing a negative review about!

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf