Thai defamation law and online reviews

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, Fairynuff said:

Millions of people read and write reviews on these “pathetic “ websites. Many businesses actively encourage people to share their experiences. Of course they only want positive reviews which is why they take such notice and act upon the negative reviews by improving their standards and services. Complete nonsense to say just vote with your feet because the rogues just get away with it and those who genuinely want to make things right and improve their standards just wouldn’t know if they’ve gone wrong.

 

Yes and millions of people believe what they read, which is why despite reading the reviews they still end up in a dump.

[Fairynuff]

5 hours ago, rufanuf said:

would define a negative review as any criticism of a business full stop

All see from mr ruf's domination of this thread is a bitter business owner

[rufanuf]

8 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

All see from mr ruf's domination of this thread is a bitter business owner

Not sure bitter is quite the term I would use, but yes as a business owner who has been victim to fake reviews, malicious reviews, (from competition) and spent endless months trying to get them removed and having to resort to legal cease and desist letters to do so, the apparent lawlessness and impunity with which review sites are allowed to operate genuinely concerns me. This is what led me to research the problems other business owners have suffered at the hands of these people, who convince their users that they provide an invaluable and impartial service, when actually that's far from the truth.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[Fairynuff]

3 hours ago, rufanuf said:

As I have stated already in this thread, our business keeps getting "certificates of excellence" and we have multiple 5 star overall reviews.

Really? You’ve had all those accolades about your amazing business and yet you’re (not your) determined to hammer the review sites. Something not quite right here

[rufanuf]

5 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

Really? You’ve had all those accolades about your amazing business and yet you’re (not your) determined to hammer the review sites. Something not quite right here

That's because you don't understand integrity perhaps?  We have over a hundred excellent reviews well over 95% of our reviews are 5 star, but I personally place little to know value on these reviews. I never asked for them, just as I never asked our competition to use the sites to defame me or my business. We do not frame our "certificate of excellence", we do not ask people to "review" us, and this is because I place little to know value on the reviews because I have had first hand experience of how these sites are abused and how the owners of these sites do not respond to such abuse.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

15 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

Really? You’ve had all those accolades about your amazing business and yet you’re (not your) determined to hammer the review sites. Something not quite right here

let me ask you a simple question. Do you think its fair that a business has NO CHOICE but to be listed on these sites? Surely a business should be allowed to be in control of its own marketing strategy?

[Fairynuff]

2 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

let me ask you a simple question. Do you think its fair that a business has NO CHOICE but to be listed on these sites? Surely a business should be allowed to be in control of its own marketing strategy?

So according to you I should not have the right to warn people of bad businesses and share my overwhelmingly positive experiences? Yes there are a few bad practices going on but the majority of people are like me, fair and honest. With experience I’ve learned which reviews are most likely to be genuine.

most businesses don’t feel like you, most businesses see reviews as a positive thing...unless of course they reason not to....and I’d be wary of those. May I finally and respectfully suggest that you concentrate on maintaining your excellent business, worry less about what folks say about you...and give the forum a break for a while

[joebrown]

26 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

let me ask you a simple question. Do you think its fair that a business has NO CHOICE but to be listed on these sites? Surely a business should be allowed to be in control of its own marketing strategy?

As a potential future customer, I'd like to find out more about your business, and see some of the reviews for myself. Could you please PM me with the details, in accordance with TVF policy?

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, Fairynuff said:

So according to you I should not have the right to warn people of bad businesses and share my overwhelmingly positive experiences? Yes there are a few bad practices going on but the majority of people are like me, fair and honest. With experience I’ve learned which reviews are most likely to be genuine.

most businesses don’t feel like you, most businesses see reviews as a positive thing...unless of course they reason not to....and I’d be wary of those. May I finally and respectfully suggest that you concentrate on maintaining your excellent business, worry less about what folks say about you...and give the forum a break for a while

You have every right to warn people of bad businesses, but should bad businesses be allowed to profit off the back of that right regardless of whether whats published is true or not? May I respectfully suggest that you do some research into the actual businesses you so veremontly wish to defend and find out if they warrant your unwaivering support? Opinions tend to be based on experience, if you had been a victim of such bad businesses I very much doubt you would hold the same views.

[rufanuf]

1 hour ago, joebrown said:

As a potential future customer, I'd like to find out more about your business, and see some of the reviews for myself. Could you please PM me with the details, in accordance with TVF policy?

Since this thread is about online defamation and your taking an interest could I see some of the reviews you have written first to see if we want your custom? PM me in accordance with TVF policy?

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[EcigAmateur]

Pure BS !

It didn't happen since so long time and only Thaivisa that wants to protect its business do not allow to tell the truth.

You can post anything anywhere and you will never have any problem. I do it all the time.

It's time to live in 2017, not anymore in 1998.

 

 

 

[seajae]

when I want to book somewhere I always look at the ratings of the place and read the reviews. I realize some people are incapable of writing an honest review and you can easily pick them as you read them all. I also write an honest review after staying/eating/visiting the place in question as I would expect others to do also. Last thing I want is people writing bullsh*t reviews , if they are good they deserve to be given good ratings, if they are crap other people need to know, its common sense, if people want good ratings they will do the right thing if they dont they deserve what they get

[csabo]

That explains why everything on Trip Advisor is 5 stars. Its either that or people don't know shit about what's good and what isn't. 

[csabo]

7 hours ago, rufanuf said:

"but I personally place little to know value"...  "is because I place little to know value on the reviews"

You are placing little to "know" value on spelling also. 

[EcigAmateur]

2 hours ago, seajae said:

when I want to book somewhere I always look at the ratings of the place and read the reviews. I realize some people are incapable of writing an honest review and you can easily pick them as you read them all. I also write an honest review after staying/eating/visiting the place in question as I would expect others to do also. Last thing I want is people writing bullsh*t reviews , if they are good they deserve to be given good ratings, if they are crap other people need to know, its common sense, if people want good ratings they will do the right thing if they dont they deserve what they get

 

People opinion is worth nothing for me. The only interesting points are FACTS.

How you like it or not is useless and even ridiculous to write.

This is what people who review will never understand.

For example, when staff at a resort is not so visible, some people complain saying that nobody cares, but for me, no staff = peace = I love it. I do not need anybody in my steps and the less I see people the more I am happy.

 

 

 

[rufanuf]

4 hours ago, EcigAmateur said:

 

People opinion is worth nothing for me. The only interesting points are FACTS.

How you like it or not is useless and even ridiculous to write.

This is what people who review will never understand.

For example, when staff at a resort is not so visible, some people complain saying that nobody cares, but for me, no staff = peace = I love it. I do not need anybody in my steps and the less I see people the more I am happy.

 

 

 

But isnt this the problem with reviews? If you read them something like 90% + are just opinions, theres no actual facts there. They are all based on a personal perception/experience. That's why I place NO value on either reading them or receiving them. Even the reviews with facts in do not mean those facts apply to the next customer. It was one persons experience nothing more. Then an individual comes along and writes a REALLY factual review...like a competitor or a disgruntled employee who will use anything negative they know about to try and cause your business damage, and that review takes prominence in the review readers mind. The only counter to this is hundreds and hundreds of positive reviews, so then big businesses resort to professional review writers and the overall picture about that business becomes very cloudy indeed. Small business then become disadvantaged as they don't have the same marketing budget to pay people to write nonsense all day long. If your using reviews to make your judgement calls as to which service you choose that's your choice, but word of mouth  from friends, colleagues and even customers is a far better way to find great service and great products.

Edited November 22, 2017 by rufanuf

[EcigAmateur]

10 hours ago, rufanuf said:

But isnt this the problem with reviews? If you read them something like 90% + are just opinions, theres no actual facts there. They are all based on a personal perception/experience. That's why I place NO value on either reading them or receiving them. Even the reviews with facts in do not mean those facts apply to the next customer. It was one persons experience nothing more. Then an individual comes along and writes a REALLY factual review...like a competitor or a disgruntled employee who will use anything negative they know about to try and cause your business damage, and that review takes prominence in the review readers mind. The only counter to this is hundreds and hundreds of positive reviews, so then big businesses resort to professional review writers and the overall picture about that business becomes very cloudy indeed. Small business then become disadvantaged as they don't have the same marketing budget to pay people to write nonsense all day long. If your using reviews to make your judgement calls as to which service you choose that's your choice, but word of mouth  from friends, colleagues and even customers is a far better way to find great service and great products.

 

When people see coackroaches and rats in a restaurant it's a fact. Even if the next customer do not see them, they were here (especially if the reviewer adds a photo).

 

 

[BadCash]

11 hours ago, rufanuf said:

But isnt this the problem with reviews? If you read them something like 90% + are just opinions, theres no actual facts there. They are all based on a personal perception/experience. That's why I place NO value on either reading them or receiving them. Even the reviews with facts in do not mean those facts apply to the next customer. It was one persons experience nothing more. Then an individual comes along and writes a REALLY factual review...like a competitor or a disgruntled employee who will use anything negative they know about to try and cause your business damage, and that review takes prominence in the review readers mind. The only counter to this is hundreds and hundreds of positive reviews, so then big businesses resort to professional review writers and the overall picture about that business becomes very cloudy indeed. Small business then become disadvantaged as they don't have the same marketing budget to pay people to write nonsense all day long. If your using reviews to make your judgement calls as to which service you choose that's your choice, but word of mouth  from friends, colleagues and even customers is a far better way to find great service and great products.

This is getting absurd. Anyone who is not a complete moron will understand that not everyone will have the exact same experience at any given place, not even in the same day. You're arguing that since one person might not have the exact same experience at any given place, there is zero value in reading about their experience.

 

I agree that it's troublesome that competitors can write false reviews (and that establishments can fabricate good ones), but since that's the reality we live in the best option is to encourage all your customers to leave a fair review so that the fake ones are in minority. I believe people can often spot fake reviews, and those who can't probably don't use the those sites anyway. 

[rufanuf]

14 hours ago, BadCash said:

 "the best option is to encourage all your customers to leave a fair review so that the fake ones are in minority."

This is actually breaking the rules of the main review sites. Your not suppose to incite, encourage or in anyway reward someone for writing a review. You are though allowed to put up their marketing stickers and certificates all over the place in your establishment. (Work that one out for yourself) What's absurd is that there is a whole industry built around the idea that these sites offer a somehow flawless and unbias view of a service provider when nothing could be further from the fact. I strongly suggest you do a lot more reading on the subject of review sites.

 

If it makes you feel better you are in the majority, in your opinion that they are useful. The majority have been wrong countless times on issues like these. The age of the internet certainly created the biggest human herds in all of human history!

Edited November 24, 2017 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

15 hours ago, EcigAmateur said:

 

When people see coackroaches and rats in a restaurant it's a fact. Even if the next customer do not see them, they were here (especially if the reviewer adds a photo).

 

 

And which restaurant in BKK hasn't had either visitor? Just because your lucky enough not to see one whilst you enjoy your dinner, doesn't mean they aren't there which is also fact....yet you still feel satisfied you made the right choice because you avoided the restaurant where someone went who had better eyes than you and loves slagging off peoples livelihoods at every opportunity even when they are at the mercy of mother nature.

[BadCash]

49 minutes ago, rufanuf said:

Just because your lucky enough not to see one whilst you enjoy your dinner, doesn't mean they aren't there which is also fact....

True. But again - the power of crowd reviewing lies in the difference between the restaurant where 1/100 reviews mention cockroach sightings, and the one where 20/100 does... and then there's the other factors, such as how did the owners and staff deal with the situation, when did the sightings take place (where they all around the same time a year ago, or do they occur frequently?), etc.

Edited November 24, 2017 by BadCash

[robblok]

Thats becuase your sensible man Roblok, but I have spoken to people who say they do not book ANYWHERE that has even one negative review on tripadvisor. High ideals indeed!

That is just plain stupid, but yes there are plenty of stupid people around. I usually don't read that many hotel or trip reviews. I read mainly stuff about products i want to buy and when i do i read loads of them to get a balanced opinion and discard some that i consider fake.

I know your business its clean and well run. Even my mom said so and she can be hard to please.

Hotel reviews are a snapshot of a moment in time. Its a bit different from a product review.

Employees can have a bad day, a mistake can be made. So if i look at those i just use my brain. If people say its noisy because a big road is near i would consider that as a permanent problem, on remark about bed sheets not that are not clean could be just a one time thing.

But yes there are dumb people who won't book over 1 bad review so i see your problem. Still reviews can safe people from going to a crap service. So i get both sides.



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[rufanuf]

13 minutes ago, BadCash said:

True. But again - the power of crowd reviewing lies in the difference between the restaurant where 1/100 reviews mention cockroach sightings, and the one where 20/100 does... and then there's the other factors, such as how did the owners and staff deal with the situation, when did the sightings take place (where they all around the same time a year ago, or do they occur frequently?), etc.

True. But as I've said its a herd mentality. One bad review comes and then other visitors are actually LOOKING for the flaw, so they can jump on the bandwagon. meanwhile the restaurant that has the same issues but happens to serve a particularly good green curry, and someone wrote a review about and everyones raving about that, instead of noticing the rats! This is why some commentators here have noticed how everyone pidgeons 5 stars. When your on a roll your on a roll!

[robblok]

Really? You’ve had all those accolades about your amazing business and yet you’re (not your) determined to hammer the review sites. Something not quite right here

I can personally vouch for his business even though i don't 100% agree with his opinion. I been there a few times and will visit again and if things go as planned id bring more family with me as this year.

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[rufanuf]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

That is just plain stupid, but yes there are plenty of stupid people around. I usually don't read that many hotel or trip reviews. I read mainly stuff about products i want to buy and when i do i read loads of them to get a balanced opinion and discard some that i consider fake.

I know your business its clean and well run. Even my mom said so and she can be hard to please.

Hotel reviews are a snapshot of a moment in time. Its a bit different from a product review.

Employees can have a bad day, a mistake can be made. So if i look at those i just use my brain. If people say its noisy because a big road is near i would consider that as a permanent problem, on remark about bed sheets not that are not clean could be just a one time thing.

But yes there are dumb people who won't book over 1 bad review so i see your problem. Still reviews can safe people from going to a crap service. So i get both sides.



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Rob, as you know the majority are going to agree with you. The principle of reviews is an excellent idea that is not what I am really arguing against. What I am saying is that reviews that register an accurate reflection of the service they represent are quite rare, and I know this from first hand experience. Equally for smaller business bad reviews carry a disproportionate amount of influence over a buyers decision. One example of this could be highlighted by the following point. How many of the reviewers get to meet the owner of the Hilton? And if they did, what kind of service would they get from him? Is he going to clear your dirty dishes away?

Edited November 24, 2017 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

I can personally vouch for his business even though i don't 100% agree with his opinion. I been there a few times and will visit again and if things go as planned id bring more family with me as this year.

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Thanks Rob, then I can explain to you why I have my views about reviews over a cold beer LOL! Theres another place I know you detest...you should look at their reviews!

[BadCash]

Getting back on topic - it seems even the Royal Crematorium, which I would think would be one of the most sensitive places in Thailand right now, isn't spared from less -than-5-star reviews.

 

 

 

What do you reckon will happen to this disgruntled Royal Crematorium visitor?

 

 

 

 

 

[Allen Ginsing]

I don't think google  or TA would give up your identity very easily.

 

But better set up a pseudo account that can't be traced to you. Obviously do no use your real name.

[joebrown]

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2560 at 6:49 PM, rufanuf said:

Since this thread is about online defamation and your taking an interest could I see some of the reviews you have written first to see if we want your custom? PM me in accordance with TVF policy?

So before anyone can become a customer of yours you ask them to provide reviews they have posted on-line? What a strange way to run a business! I have sent you a PM. So, what is the name of your company. You can PM me and I can then decide whether I want to do business with you.

[EcigAmateur]

7 hours ago, Allen Ginsing said:

I don't think google  or TA would give up your identity very easily.

 

But better set up a pseudo account that can't be traced to you. Obviously do no use your real name.

 

Funny you :-)

 

All big websites give personal data to authorities on simple request.

 

Do you think that they want to be ban from any country ? So they just comply. Google and facebook first, maybe they even send data without being asked ! They are the worst snitches rats of the world.