Cadet's death - army defends training methods

[webfact]

Cadet's death - army defends training methods

 

Picture: Daily News

 

An army source has defended the force's training methods after an 18 year old cadet died.

 

Phakhapong "Moei" Tanyakarn died on October 17th at the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School.

 

His family went to the media after they were dissatisfied with army explanations and it was later revealed that many of the teen's organs were removed at autopsy before the body was given to relatives.

 

Now the army has defended its training methods especially a position known as "Pakchamuak" in which the head is placed on the ground, the arms are placed on an arched back and the legs are in a raised position.

 

Doctors have said that such a practice can cause heart attack if done for a long time.

 

The army admitted that it is sometimes done for as long as an hour and is designed to strengthen neck muscles so that personnel can carry heavy loads.

 

An unnamed army source speaking to Daily News Online defended the practice saying that all army training carries an element of risk.

 

Some have said such practices are used as a punishment but the army said it is standard.

 

Source: Daily News

 

-- © Copyright Thai Visa News 2017-11-24

[darksidedog]

I don't think people are overly concerned with army training methods. It is the beatings that cause injury and death that they care about. And those are happening way too much.

[YetAnother]

27 minutes ago, webfact said:

An unnamed army source speaking to Daily News Online defended the practice saying that all army training carries an element of risk.

astonishingly pure example of army illogic; this is otherspeak for 'every minute of life carries risk'

which boils down to Nothing

[AGareth2]

23 minutes ago, darksidedog said:

I don't think people are overly concerned with army training methods. It is the beatings that cause injury and death that they care about. And those are happening way too much.

brutality

[tominbkk]

Maybe if all young guys started refusing to report for military conscription until there was reform they would do something to correct things. They can't put everyone who dodges into prison if they all do it.

[Bob12345]

Quote

The army admitted that it is sometimes done for as long as an hour and is designed to strengthen neck muscles so that personnel can carry heavy loads.

I've done a ton of muay thai in Thailand and this exercise is indeed part of training your neck muscles for in the clinch (close combat where you try to pull your opponent's head down to be able to knee him in the face).

But unlike military men, fighters actually directly use these muscles and train them for maybe a few minutes per training (training twice a day).

 

So i wonder why soldiers do this for up to an hour if even professional fighters, who end up with much stronger neck muscles, can reach better results within minutes.

[JAG]

Cadet's death - army defends training methods
 

Picture: Daily News
 
An army source has defended the force's training methods after an 18 year old cadet died.
 
Phakhapong "Moei" Tanyakarn died on October 17th at the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School.
 
His family went to the media after they were dissatisfied with army explanations and it was later revealed that many of the teen's organs were removed at autopsy before the body was given to relatives.
 
Now the army has defended its training methods especially a position known as "Pakchamuak" in which the head is placed on the ground, the arms are placed on an arched back and the legs are in a raised position.
 
Doctors have said that such a practice can cause heart attack if done for a long time.
 
The army admitted that it is sometimes done for as long as an hour and is designed to strengthen neck muscles so that personnel can carry heavy loads.
 
An unnamed army source speaking to Daily News Online defended the practice saying that all army training carries an element of risk.
 
Some have said such practices are used as a punishment but the army said it is standard.
 
Source: Daily News
  -- [emoji767] Copyright Thai Visa News 2017-11-24

"Carry heavy loads"?

What utter b*LL*cks.

Brutality, nothing more or less, because the officers are not doing their jobs, and supervising the training.

Sent from my KENNY using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Dogmatix]

Torturing and murdering cadets clearly makes better soldiers of them, particularly the dead ones.  Keep'em coming.  

[Hayduke]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

The army admitted that it is sometimes done for as long as an hour and is designed to strengthen neck muscles so that personnel can carry heavy loads.

...while doing yard work around one of the general's palatial homes.

[Gandtee]

1 hour ago, Bob12345 said:

I've done a ton of muay thai in Thailand and this exercise is indeed part of training your neck muscles for in the clinch (close combat where you try to pull your opponent's head down to be able to knee him in the face).

But unlike military men, fighters actually directly use these muscles and train them for maybe a few minutes per training (training twice a day).

 

So i wonder why soldiers do this for up to an hour if even professional fighters, who end up with much stronger neck muscles, can reach better results within minutes.

I doubt that the motionless exercise depicted would do much to strengthen the neck. When younger I enjoyed the sport of wrestling and to strengthen our necks we used do the bridge exercise, by lying, back down, arching the neck and the body, Rocking back and forth. This would be done for so many sets. What is shown in the picture seems more like an endurance test or punishment. My Thai son is a student in a Military school and has told me of the punishment meted out. Totally different from my training in the British army.

[chrisinth]

4 hours ago, YetAnother said:

astonishingly pure example of army illogic; this is otherspeak for 'every minute of life carries risk'

which boils down to Nothing

Hmm, not sure I would agree with that. Worldwide it is the same, the instructors are given raw material to instill firstly discipline and then mold into fighting soldiers. These are not boy scout camps.

 

Ever done a proper assault course?

Ever come down a proper 'death slide'?

Ever been on a live firing range with groups of people who had probably never seen or handled a gun the week before?

Ever been on forced marches with full kit over open country?

Ever done an intense swimming test?

 

None of the above exercises are done "every minute of life". Oh and those mentioned above weren't done in Thailand, but I'm pretty sure they have a programme similar. That is the sort of thing we did in the UK and although we had the best supervision available, accidents still happen. More than you may imagine.

[Jonmarleesco]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

The army admitted that it is sometimes done for as long as an hour and is designed to strengthen neck muscles so that personnel can carry heavy loads.

They obviously need to employ instructors who know what they are about.

[Jonmarleesco]

2 hours ago, chrisinth said:

Hmm, not sure I would agree with that. Worldwide it is the same, the instructors are given raw material to instill firstly discipline and then mold into fighting soldiers. These are not boy scout camps.

 

Ever done a proper assault course?

Ever come down a proper 'death slide'?

Ever been on a live firing range with groups of people who had probably never seen or handled a gun the week before?

Ever been on forced marches with full kit over open country?

Ever done an intense swimming test?

 

None of the above exercises are done "every minute of life". Oh and those mentioned above weren't done in Thailand, but I'm pretty sure they have a programme similar. That is the sort of thing we did in the UK and although we had the best supervision available, accidents still happen. More than you may imagine.

'... accidents still happen. More than you may imagine.' Quite likely. But more down to occasional errors or slip ups rather than the pure ignorance and stupidity which identifies the Thai army methods. Especially given not one of the current innumerable crop of Thai generals, including those in the NCPO/government, has any experience of battle.

[JAG]

2 hours ago, chrisinth said:

Hmm, not sure I would agree with that. Worldwide it is the same, the instructors are given raw material to instill firstly discipline and then mold into fighting soldiers. These are not boy scout camps.

 

Ever done a proper assault course?

Ever come down a proper 'death slide'?

Ever been on a live firing range with groups of people who had probably never seen or handled a gun the week before?

Ever been on forced marches with full kit over open country?

Ever done an intense swimming test?

 

None of the above exercises are done "every minute of life". Oh and those mentioned above weren't done in Thailand, but I'm pretty sure they have a programme similar. That is the sort of thing we did in the UK and although we had the best supervision available, accidents still happen. More than you may imagine.

Yes to all five questions, and at later stages of a long if inglorious career I was responsible for conducting and supervising the conduct of such training. Yes, there are risks, yes the supervision should be the very best. The death of this lad was, like many others we hear of, a result of callous brutality, whether by his peers (hazing by some sort of "cadet government") or a beating by those in authority over him. The officers in charge failed utterly, whichever was the case. In the UK, and I hazard most other armies, they would be sacked.

 

Incidentally, my stepson recently completed his national service. I took a keen professional interest in what he was doing. Despite serving in an "airborne " unit, complete with para wings and a red beret, I don't think he really did any of the things you mentioned, with the possible exception of a couple of practices on a gallery range!

He was lucky, his training was not conducted with any degree of brutality.

[Sid Celery]

8 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

brutality

In my opinion, the brutality is secondary, what is primary is teh feeling of control the person ordering or carrying out the beating has. It's a psychological flaw, most probably developed during childhood at the hands of parent or substitute parents. The people who are responsible or who carry out beating like this are not normal.

 

Either the army actively seeks out people with this psychological flaw for the express purpose of beating obedience into resistant recruits, or its personnel screening, which should filter out a range of psychological flaws ranging from bullying to psychopathy, simply isn't working. Take your pick, heads they lose, tails they lose.

 

Personally I would readily believe the former. Armed forces need psychopaths, this is the same the world over. If they can't recruit them, they make them, but they must also rein in the excesses, and the type of disciplinary beatings reported strongly suggest an excessive desire to demonstrate power, which is trained into non-coms and junior officers.

 

To say that above exercise, which doctors say can cause heart attacks, it to develop neck strength is nonsense. Any physical fitness instructor will tell you that a position like this held for up to an hour, loses any strength-enhancing benefit after just a few minutes. In short, what the army says is BS, they are instilling acceptance of control and excessive discipline. By example, at least some of the victims will be getting the message that to get ahead, they must develop the same traits as their tormentors, and become like their leaders. More grist to the mill.

 

The armed forces in Thailand are a reflection of the pooyay and upwards in Thailand. It's all about power, and that starts with control and bullying. Always.

 

Sadly, by the time the latent psychopathy begins to show itself, there is no effective cure, it's too late. Thailand is building the society that psychopaths want and approve of, with a magnificent example being set by the new boss, same as the old boss. Another reason to keep the serfs poor and stupid, so they think it's normal and therefore accept it.

 

Kudos to this Mom and Dad for not accepting it and raining merry hell. Well done.

[Gandtee]

2 minutes ago, Sid Celery said:

In my opinion, the brutality is secondary, what is primary is teh feeling of control the person ordering or carrying out the beating has. It's a psychological flaw, most probably developed during childhood at the hands of parent or substitute parents. The people who are responsible or who carry out beating like this are not normal.

 

Either the army actively seeks out people with this psychological flaw for the express purpose of beating obedience into resistant recruits, or its personnel screening, which should filter out a range of psychological flaws ranging from bullying to psychopathy, simply isn't working. Take your pick, heads they lose, tails they lose.

 

Personally I would readily believe the former. Armed forces need psychopaths, this is the same the world over. If they can't recruit them, they make them, but they must also rein in the excesses, and the type of disciplinary beatings reported strongly suggest an excessive desire to demonstrate power, which is trained into non-coms and junior officers.

 

To say that above exercise, which doctors say can cause heart attacks, it to develop neck strength is nonsense. Any physical fitness instructor will tell you that a position like this held for up to an hour, loses any strength-enhancing benefit after just a few minutes. In short, what the army says is BS, they are instilling acceptance of control and excessive discipline. By example, at least some of the victims will be getting the message that to get ahead, they must develop the same traits as their tormentors, and become like their leaders. More grist to the mill.

 

The armed forces in Thailand are a reflection of the pooyay and upwards in Thailand. It's all about power, and that starts with control and bullying. Always.

 

Sadly, by the time the latent psychopathy begins to show itself, there is no effective cure, it's too late. Thailand is building the society that psychopaths want and approve of, with a magnificent example being set by the new boss, same as the old boss. Another reason to keep the serfs poor and stupid, so they think it's normal and therefore accept it.

 

Kudos to this Mom and Dad for not accepting it and raining merry hell. Well done.

I agree and support the parents in their pursuit of true information and justice. They seem, fortunately, to be people of means and unfazed by uniforms. When these incidents happen, and they have happened before, to those of lesser means and subservient to uniformed men, they get brushed off and all is quickly swept under the carpet. I wish the parents of this boy success in their endeavour and commiserate at the death of their son. 

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, Sid Celery said:

In my opinion, the brutality is secondary, what is primary is teh feeling of control the person ordering or carrying out the beating has. It's a psychological flaw, most probably developed during childhood at the hands of parent or substitute parents. The people who are responsible or who carry out beating like this are not normal.

 

Either the army actively seeks out people with this psychological flaw for the express purpose of beating obedience into resistant recruits, or its personnel screening, which should filter out a range of psychological flaws ranging from bullying to psychopathy, simply isn't working. Take your pick, heads they lose, tails they lose.

 

Personally I would readily believe the former. Armed forces need psychopaths, this is the same the world over. If they can't recruit them, they make them, but they must also rein in the excesses, and the type of disciplinary beatings reported strongly suggest an excessive desire to demonstrate power, which is trained into non-coms and junior officers.

 

To say that above exercise, which doctors say can cause heart attacks, it to develop neck strength is nonsense. Any physical fitness instructor will tell you that a position like this held for up to an hour, loses any strength-enhancing benefit after just a few minutes. In short, what the army says is BS, they are instilling acceptance of control and excessive discipline. By example, at least some of the victims will be getting the message that to get ahead, they must develop the same traits as their tormentors, and become like their leaders. More grist to the mill.

 

The armed forces in Thailand are a reflection of the pooyay and upwards in Thailand. It's all about power, and that starts with control and bullying. Always.

 

Sadly, by the time the latent psychopathy begins to show itself, there is no effective cure, it's too late. Thailand is building the society that psychopaths want and approve of, with a magnificent example being set by the new boss, same as the old boss. Another reason to keep the serfs poor and stupid, so they think it's normal and therefore accept it.

 

Kudos to this Mom and Dad for not accepting it and raining merry hell. Well done.

I agree with much of what you say - except that armed forces do not need psychopaths. They need effective leaders who can think clearly, plan effectively, issue clear unambiguous instructions, and ensure (lead) their soldiers carry out those orders under the conditions of mental and physical pressure, fear and often fatigue which you encounter on a battlefield.. They need soldiers who are fit, competent, skilled, and have confidence in their leaders. Psychopaths fit neither bill! The training methods we are discussing, and which resulted in this young man's death will produce neither.

Edited November 24, 2017 by JAG

[Sid Celery]

4 minutes ago, JAG said:

I agree with much of what you say - except that armed forces do not need psychopaths. They need effective leaders who can think clearly, plan effectively, issue clear unambiguous instructions, and ensure (lead) their soldiers carry out those orders under the conditions of mental and physical pressure, fear and often fatigue which you encounter on a battlefield.. They need soldiers who are fit, competent, skilled, and have confidence in their leaders. Psychopaths fit neither bill!

 

Not sure I agree with the bolded bit (my bold). Have a look at some (some, not all) of the interviews done by the grunts in the US armed forces. Normal they are not, which is one of the reasons many of them sign on for additional tours of duty. Armed forces need psychopaths, recalling that psychopathy has a range of severity, they're not all Ted Bundy but a lot of them are on the way to becoming him.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Sid Celery