Thai Citizenship

[Dutchy]

Also, another true fact; foreign investment leaving Thailand last year not having anything to do with the south, totalled 24 billion USD.

Where did you get this information?

Dutchy

[mbkudu]

I am just wondering why any foreigner would want Thai citizenship; I am in no way disparaging Thailand by saying this, it is a great country. What is the incentive? Thailand does not allow duel citizenship so a person would have to denounce their current citizenship. In one of my earlier posts I mentioned Bill

H. (still can't spell it right). This is the only situation I could imagine a foreigner

wanting to do it or maybe a person fleeing persecution.

[britainmal]

Actually, Dutchy I got the information about foreign investment from an investment banker that was commenting about the violence in the south, which he is based in Bangkok.

No , not techincally true because

You can still keep your original country

passport because I know people who are foreigners that have Thai citizenship and still have thier original country

passport.

[PvtDick]

The major incentives are: 1) being able to own land; 2) being able to own a company 100% (the only foreigners who can do this now are Americans); and 3) not needing a work permit.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the legality of dual citizenship. MY understanding is that once you attain Thai citizenship, you are seen as ONLY a Thai citizen in the eyes of the law. No government can force you to denounce your citizenship in another country, and, more importantly, no government can force another government to ACCEPT a denouncement of citizenship.

FYI, the US government does not allow citizens to denounce their citizenship if they believe the reason for doing so is avoidance of taxes. You can rip up your US passport and burn it, but you would still be considered a US citizen by the US government. You can rip your clothes off and moon the US embassy, but they will not issue you any kind of letter stating that you are no longer a US citizen. How would one prove to the Thai government that one had denounced their citizenship, anyway? I highly doubt that any state issues an official letter saying that "XXX is no longer a citizen".

There are lots and lots of Thai-foreign dual citizens. I have a couple in my office. In most cases, the Thai government doesn't even KNOW they hold the passport of another nation.

So, although there may be a law against dual nationality, it is meaningliness in practical terms. All it means is that you pledge sole allegiance to Thailand, and that in the eyes of the Thai government you would be a Thai and nothing else.

[britainmal]

The good news is according to the Thai government trade office is that in the year 2007 all foreign nationals will be able to own 100 percent of a business in Thailand under their WTO commitment.

[mbkudu]

The major incentives are: 1) being able to own land; 2) being able to own a company 100% (the only foreigners who can do this now are Americans); and 3) not needing a work permit.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the legality of dual citizenship. MY understanding is that once you attain Thai citizenship, you are seen as ONLY a Thai citizen in the eyes of the law. No government can force you to denounce your citizenship in another country, and, more importantly, no government can force another government to ACCEPT a denouncement of citizenship.

FYI, the US government does not allow citizens to denounce their citizenship if they believe the reason for doing so is avoidance of taxes. You can rip up your US passport and burn it, but you would still be considered a US citizen by the US government. You can rip your clothes off and moon the US embassy, but they will not issue you any kind of letter stating that you are no longer a US citizen. How would one prove to the Thai government that one had denounced their citizenship, anyway? I highly doubt that any state issues an official letter saying that "XXX is no longer a citizen".

There are lots and lots of Thai-foreign dual citizens. I have a couple in my office. In most cases, the Thai government doesn't even KNOW they hold the passport of another nation.

So, although there may be a law against dual nationality, it is meaningliness in practical terms. All it means is that you pledge sole allegiance to Thailand, and that in the eyes of the Thai government you would be a Thai and nothing else.

Thanks Pvtdick for your input. Clears up a lot of misunderstandings I had. You are right about the two passport holders; I have met Taiwanese nations who also held Thai passports. I guess 'legality' has a very thin veil.

[Axel]

My daughter used to have Swiss and German nationality. Germany does not allow two and a decision has to be made latest when 18 yo.

When denouncing German nationality a competent court is to issue a release document (Entlassungsurkunde) Subsequently the German nationality is cancelled.

There is one condition in the laws, you cannot be released from German nationality if this would make you stateless.

However, I agree to mbkudu 'legality' has a very thin veil.'

As long as neither government knows of your holding another one, nobody will act, however, you might make a false statement, when applying for a new p/port, since you sign, having no other.

[Richard Hall]

Something I've noticed before and wondered about is that on Thaivisa's residency page

http://www.thaivisa.com/300.0.html

it says this:

An alien with permanent residency status will be eligible to apply for Thai citizenship after 10 consecutive years under this classification.

but on the citizenship page

http://www.thaivisa.com/301.0.html

it says this:

Aliens who wish to apply for Thai nationality under the Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (A.D. 1965) a person does NOT need to be 40 years or have spent 10 years in Thailand.

They must be of the age of majority, be of good character, be gainfully employed, have continuously lived in Thailand for not less than FIVE years and have knowledge of the Thai language. (Section 10)

Just curious.

Strange as it might seem, both are correct. It isn't too unusual to find regulations in conflict with each other T i T

May I suggest that both statements are not necessarily contradict each other but rather just look at the same subject from different perspectives.

No. 1 refers to permanent residency and individuals holding this status considering to apply for Thai nationality on THIS basis means long term residence (a lawyer would probably name it "because of habitualness"). Minimum requirement with this approach: Holding permanent residency for at least 10 years.

No. 2 just shows an alternative to acquire Thai nationality but not on the sole basis of time but rather other reasons (whatever these might be). Possibly having family, business, social, cultural or whatever related links to the country to be spelt out when filing the application. Basically the law makers were smart enough to leave a backdoor open for those individuals doing good for the country and its people and this does not necessarily means just in sole financial terms. Since the application is other than time motivated the logical consequence the minimum requirement is just 5 instead of 10 yeas.

Two ways with one goal and if this thesis holds actually true, well, than Thai legislation may even has an intellectual etch over some of the supposed to be more sophisticated Western ones. TiT again but this time in a positive context?

To mbkudu: Reason for applying for a new nationality could be that someone never really got a kick out of his/her own homecountry. No one can actually decide for oneself where to get born, by what parents and about the basic start-up in life. There are people they just take it as destiny while others may consider to correct that natural mess-up at a later stage. If you had eventually made up your mind where to actually life for the rest of your life the logical approach would be to put the cherry on the cake and make it definite means also adjusting the nationality. The utmost in terms of integration one can strieve for when being unable to change the blood line. Personally, I think this is a better and more sensible reason rather than just taking financial aspects into consideration such as saving taxes. Therefore, latter may even backfire because the reasoning is not any better than getting married just to get hold of a visa.

[mouse]

The good news is according to the Thai government trade office is that in the year 2007 all foreign nationals will be able to own 100 percent of a business in Thailand under their WTO commitment.

Sources please!!! This is interesting if proven correct.

[snowleopard]

I think Thailand has two tier racism.

Racism from ordinary Thais,at least against Farangs,is virtually non-existent.Buddhists in particular are very tolerant to outsiders.

The only real racism in the Realm is the one promoted by nationalistic state officials who believe the "Thai race" is a separate race from the rest of humankind.They also smugly believe that the Thai people have a unique cultural heritage that is superior to everone else's.

State racism against foreign males goes back to,at least, the Authaya period A.D.1350-1767 when foreign traders started to come and do business with the Thais.

Some Thai scholars have told me that Thais,who were living in the patriarchic society of Ayuthaya,were paranoid xenophobics!

They were even afraid that Western males,whom they viwed as potential enemies,would be passing on their genes by siring children within their communities.They thought these kids might later attack them from inside.Like a Trojan horse.

Of course,those ancient Thais didn't know anything about the DNA molecule,XX or XY sex chromosomes and how genes code for different characteristics and behavior;but rather they acted on instinct against a perceived threat from outside by something that looked different from themselves.

A bit like eugenics.

They had no such admission problem with,and bias against,sexy "Farang" females who were very welcome to spread their genetical traits among them..

Children of Western males were taken away to be put down in the same fashion unwanted strays are sometimes dealt with today.

Snowleopard.

Where did you get this information Snowleopard?

The belief that the Thai race would be superior to other races is an interesting topic. On what would this be based? Average IQ scores, average country Toefl scores, cooking Tom Yam Kung? Any ideas....?

Dutchy

Where did you get this information Snowleopard?

Howdy Dutchy,

Do you mean the stuff about infanticide of foreign kids in ancient Khrung Ayutthaya?

Well,I can't provide you with a web link as proof and it's mostly anecdotal evidence.

I reiterate that I've heard the same things from several different sources during my years in Thailand.

The best ones are a lecturer at Ramkhamhaeng University and one history scholar from another university,but a few students have told me similar things as well.

Some years ago,I translated a paper from Thai for a student at Mahidol that mentioned it too.

I think you can find these things out by talking to some scholars yourself.

They might be reluctant to tell everything openly before they know you well;but I don't think it's a top secret like the death of young A.M. in 1946.

The first European traders in Ayutthaya were Portuguese.They began coming around 1505.The Portuguese opened an embassy there in 1511.Then came the Dutch,the Brits,the Danish and the French!

The Burmese invaded two times and completely destroyed the city in 1765.The Thais took it back again in 1769!

Some Portuguese apparantly survived and got a small community going in Bangkok for a while.

The "NA" in a Thai surname like "Khunying Na Ayutthaya" originally comes from "DA" in a Portuguese surname like "Senora Da Silva"

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[maerim]

the Thai government doesn't even KNOW they hold the passport of another nation.

Well, whilst in the throws of a very messy divorce in the U.K. from a Thai prostitute with both her and her lawyer making life as difficult as possible for me I did a bit of retaliation.

I got in touch with the Thai embassy in London re her dual nationality so the Thai government KNEW about hers,I know plenty of Thai prostitutes in the U.K. divorced with two passports.

I sent them a folder with all the documents relating to her new U.K. passport and guess what, nothing no reply not a sausage.

When I contacted them by letter and phone again no reply from the letter but when I phoned they said "So what?" so is it true Thai's can only hold one passport at a time?

[king_of_the_dancing_apes]

The good news is according to the Thai government trade office is that in the year 2007 all foreign nationals will be able to own 100 percent of a business in Thailand under their WTO commitment.

Sources please!!! This is interesting if proven correct.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE Britainmal, supply your source(s) or retract your statement. I, as do many others in this thread really want to know whether this information is fact or fiction.....

[samran]

the Thai government doesn't even KNOW they hold the passport of another nation.

Well, whilst in the throws of a very messy divorce in the U.K. from a Thai prostitute with both her and her lawyer making life as difficult as possible for me I did a bit of retaliation.

I got in touch with the Thai embassy in London re her dual nationality so the Thai government KNEW about hers,I know plenty of Thai prostitutes in the U.K. divorced with two passports.

I sent them a folder with all the documents relating to her new U.K. passport and guess what, nothing no reply not a sausage.

When I contacted them by letter and phone again no reply from the letter but when I phoned they said "So what?" so is it true Thai's can only hold one passport at a time?

maerim

Dual nationality is legal. There are a billion posts on this topic floating around.

The Thai Nationality act (2535) makes no metion of dual nationality being illegal. The state has no right to force a Thai national to give up Thai nationality on the basis of being a dual national. This version of the act superceeds all previous laws which made dual nationality illegal in some instances.

It does however offer the option of a person, once gaining the age of majority (20 years old) to make the choice of renouncing their citizenship, if they so wish. This rule is often confused by many that a person must make a choice at 20 years of age. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And that is why the Thai embassy in the UK didn't care.

[britainmal]

In 2007 all foreign nationals can own 100 percent of a business. You can check either the Thai investment office website or the Thai foreign Ministry website. To go back to citizenship, You see how easy it was for a Thai prostitute married to UK national to get a UK passport. How about a foreign male with no Thai blood married to a Thai? How long will it take a foreign male to get

citizenship?

[PvtDick]

Minimum 8 years before he can even apply:

three years with back-to-back one year visas to get PR status

five years of PR status to apply for citizenship

[britainmal]

Wow, eight year before a foreign male can get citizenship. It takes a foreign female married to a Thai male two years. How long does it take a Thai married to British national to obtain a UK passport? You also have to take in account the fact that immigration may not give a PR after 3 years on a one year visa. I know a Canadian guy who is a manger for a langage school who has lived here 5 years and immigration does not want to give him PR because he doesn't qualify. Racism or not?

[PvtDick]

Wow, eight year before a foreign male can get citizenship. It takes a foreign female married to a Thai male two years.

What is your source for this information? I have never seen any distinction made between males and females in either the citizenship rules, or the PR rules.

[britainmal]

I know a girl who is from the philipines who married a Thai guy and she told me this. She is telling the truth because she has a Thai ID card.

[PvtDick]

I'll have to see it in writing before I believe it.

[britainmal]

Everybody should know is that

I support foreigners from discrimination from

Thai society policies and incorrect historical pasts. I would not lie to you pvt dick. I do not gain anything from not being honest.

[Richard W]

The "NA" in a Thai surname like "Khunying Na Ayutthaya" originally comes from "DA" in a Portuguese surname like "Senora Da Silva"

What's this got do with Portuguese ancestry? 'Na X' simply means of the royal (or princely) family of X. Thus 'na Ayutthaya' in a surname simply means descended (in the male line) from one of the kings of Thailand. As a mark of continuity with the old capital, 'na Ayutthaya' is used by members of the Rattanakosin family who are comoners. The descendants of the princes of Chiangmai use 'na Chiangmai' as their surname, and similarly for Songkhla.

[Bobcat]

I tend to agree with PvtDick. I have also never seen any distinction in the citiizenship/PR rules and regulations between foreign males and females. I would like to know the law which says that a foreign woman married to a Thai man can get Thai citizenship after two years. I'm not saying it's not true, but I would be interested to find out more about the what the laws say.

[PvtDick]

I'm not accusing you of lying, Britainmal, but there may be more to this story than meets the eye. There are lots of ways to get an ID card, but not all of them are legal.

[britainmal]

I don't know the law ,but it is true what I am saying. Just curious, Are there ways to get Tha ID illegaly?

[PvtDick]

I don't know the law ,but it is true what I am saying. Just curious, Are there ways to get Tha ID illegaly?

Of course...about a thousand ways! Fake one, get a corrupt village headman to forge a birth certificate for you, assume the identity of a dead person...use your imagination!

[snowleopard]

The "NA" in a Thai surname like "Khunying Na Ayutthaya" originally comes from "DA" in a Portuguese surname like "Senora Da Silva"

What's this got do with Portuguese ancestry? 'Na X' simply means of the royal (or princely) family of X. Thus 'na Ayutthaya' in a surname simply means descended (in the male line) from one of the kings of Thailand. As a mark of continuity with the old capital, 'na Ayutthaya' is used by members of the Rattanakosin family who are comoners. The descendants of the princes of Chiangmai use 'na Chiangmai' as their surname, and similarly for Songkhla.

QUOTE=snowleopard,Thu 2004-05-13, 19:29:02]The "NA" in a Thai surname like "Khunying Na Ayutthaya" originally comes from "DA" in a Portuguese surname like "Senora Da Silva"

What's this got do with Portuguese ancestry?

The "na" in Thai is derived from "da" in the Portuguese language!

Check the origin of that etymon please!

If you don't believe me,do your own googling and then you might get my post?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[samran]

wow snowleopard. But are you sure?

My Thai dictionary reckons "na" was simply derived from the pali or sanskrit which is generally used to mean in modern Thai "by, upon, in, near". In modern usage it can mean "at a place" or something to do with a locality or a place in time.

For instance, when your are flying in Thailand you will often here the crew announce formally "The flight time "na" Bankgkok international airport will be..."

Although used for decendents of the aristocracy, "na" simply is supposed to denote one who is from a certain place, whether that be a geographical one or a blood line.

I don't see any reason why "na" cant have evolved parallel to most other languages, and have the same meaning.

The other reason why this doesn't seem intuitive (and I am not saying you are wrong BTW) is that my old Thai teacher hammered into me that words which used rare thai letters or were spelt irregularly were generally derived from Pali or sanskrit words.

[samran]

How long does it take a Thai married to British national to obtain a UK passport? You also have to take in account the fact that immigration may not give a PR after 3 years on a one year visa.

For a anyone married to a UK national it takes 3 years.

That isn't automatic though, as that person has to continually reside in the UK for 3 years before they are eligable.

For everyone else it is 5+ years. Consisting of (and I don't think people realise how hard this first bit is):

a) getting permission to be in the UK to work. The only way to get this is if you are an EU national, have a grandparent born in the UK or be a Highly skilled migrant with more or less extremely high earnings.

Otherwise, to get a workpermit, the firm you work for has to prove that there is no-one else in the entire EU who can do that job. This requires an expensive recruitment process to which must be shown to the home office. Needless to say, most firms don't bother hiring foreigners.

b ) After that, you have to live and work in the UK for 4 years, continuously, without leaving for more than 3 months in a row, you are given PR. Following PR, you have to been in the UK for another year, before you are eligable to get a UK Passport. 5 years all up.

Granted, the process is more or less straight forward for citizenship, but getting your foot in the door is in the UK is the killer.

Whereas for Thailand, it seems, getting your foot in the door is the easy bit, and so long as there is a reason for you to be here (ie relationship/job) there should be no problem extending your stay. The hard bit, as you say, is the citizenship. But as we have seen, it is difficult, but not impossible.

I would actually dare say that to the extent they do grant citizenship, farangs will be prefered over most others.

[meadish_sweetball]

Under the Siamese monarchy, princely rank is lost over no more than five**generations: princely titles go from Jao Fa (Crown Prince, child of a king) and Phra Ong Jao (child of a king from a minor wife or grandchild of a king through a Jao Fa) to Morm Jao [MomCho,MC], Morm Rarchawong [MR] and finally Morn Luang [ML]. The following generations are commoners, yet allowed to flaunt their distant royal origin by adding “na...”, meaning “From Somewhere”, to their surname—for example, Wisoot Suphalak na Ayutthaya.

http://bookstore.manager.co.th/BookView.asp?ID=83

I am not necessarily saying you are wrong either, Snowleopard, but I would very much like to see you quote some substantial verifiable source to back up your statements. Samran's discussion of "na" covers what I have learned about the word as well. It is used as a preposition in formal Thai, and by its spelling appears to be derived from the ubiqiutous Sanskrit.

I suppose it is theoretically possible that the *practice* of using "na" evolved from glancing at a European model ("da, de, von, af, of" etc.), but to state that the word "na" actually is a loan from Portuguese is something else.

[britainmal]

As samran put it it takes 3 years to get a UK passport for a Thai national married to a UK national. Thailand takes at least 8 years for foreign males and 2 or 3 years for a foreign female. I know a lot of foreign males not married to a Thai, but who are mangers of businesses that have been in Thailand on a non-immigrant 1 year visa for 5 years straight.

They were told by immigration that they do not qualify for PR. Getting a visa to stay is not problem because the Thai govenrment wants foreigners to come here and spend money, but the minute they want to open shop or get settled down here the racist restrictive gate open ups.