No Irish border deal before EU trade agreement - British minister

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[naboo]

As a snowflake remoaner, I'm finding it hilarious watching these clueless Brexiteers go about their brilliance.

 

At some point, the $#it hits the fan and, you never know, it may be the greatest thing Britain ever did. Or more likely, Britain's wealth will collapse, the people who voted for this mess will be far worse off, unemployment will be huge and the wealthy will be laughing, able to treat their slaves workers as they please with no further protection from EU laws and the poor will be left with nothing at all.

 

Have Brexiteers ever considered the end goal might be for Britain to look like Thailand, with the wealthy few laughing in their relative wealth and the rest just grateful the police don't prosecute their illegal production of Lao Khao Moonshine?

[dunroaming]

21 minutes ago, naboo said:

Have Brexiteers ever considered the end goal might be for Britain to look like Thailand

I think that is unlikely.  Britain may end up much poorer after Brexit but it will be a British run poorness.  And then because the government have screwed things up so badly there will be an election and the labour party will get in power.  And then it really goes pear shaped!

[naboo]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Britain may end up much poorer after Brexit but it will be a British run poorness. 

The EU was British run, Britain had a veto on everything and voted in favour of over 99% of EU law.

 

How is Britain better off poorer, run by Brits, when previously is was richer, run by Brits?

[smedly]

13 hours ago, naboo said:

As a snowflake remoaner, I'm finding it hilarious watching these clueless Brexiteers go about their brilliance.

 

At some point, the $#it hits the fan and, you never know, it may be the greatest thing Britain ever did. Or more likely, Britain's wealth will collapse, the people who voted for this mess will be far worse off, unemployment will be huge and the wealthy will be laughing, able to treat their slaves workers as they please with no further protection from EU laws and the poor will be left with nothing at all.

 

Have Brexiteers ever considered the end goal might be for Britain to look like Thailand, with the wealthy few laughing in their relative wealth and the rest just grateful the police don't prosecute their illegal production of Lao Khao Moonshine?

I have no doubt that the UK will take a hit for a while but I do see upside after maybe 5 years or so, I only see downside for the EU in general but not Germany

[JAG]

For all those years that "the troubles" raged throughout Northern Ireland, the EU or its predecessors kept as far away as possible.

Now the border is a matter of supreme importance.

The UK and the Republic of Ireland are sovereign states. They can negotiate a solution. Or does Ireland need Brussels permission?

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[whatsupdoc]

11 minutes ago, JAG said:

For all those years that "the troubles" raged throughout Northern Ireland, the EU or its predecessors kept as far away as possible.

Now the border is a matter of supreme importance.

The UK and the Republic of Ireland are sovereign states. They can negotiate a solution. Or does Ireland need Brussels permission?

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Do you want the EU to interfere with the internal problems of Northern Ireland? Same reason they do not interfere with Catalonia.

 

Single market means single market, so I suppose that Ireland can not deviate from EU standards.

 

By the way, strange that Brexiteers want to have tight control of the border but at the same time think there should be no border controls with Ireland (or am I missing something here)???? 

[smedly]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Do you want the EU to interfere with the internal problems of Northern Ireland? Same reason they do not interfere with Catalonia.

 

Single market means single market, so I suppose that Ireland can not deviate from EU standards.

 

By the way, strange that Brexiteers want to have tight control of the border but at the same time think there should be no border controls with Ireland (or am I missing something here)???? 

Brussels is pulling all the strings, Ireland has little say in the matter

 

The UK is leaving the EU - that is a fact, if there is no trade or customs deal then everyone loses, it is in the interests of all concerned to have an agreement on trade and customs, if the UK walks away from the talks there is nothing stopping a deal being made at some future date, it shouldn't be terribly difficult since the UK has been trading with the EU for decades

 

as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally, as soon as they try to claim benefits - use medical facilities - work etc etc they will be caught out so it is a waste of time, plus if someone wanted to enter the UK illegally right now there are thousands of miles of coast line without checks so what is stopping them ?

 

It is shameful that Brussels has made the Irish border an issue, there is only one reason they are doing it - to stir shit up were it doesn't need to be.

[Orac]

Brussels is pulling all the strings, Ireland has little say in the matter
 
The UK is leaving the EU - that is a fact, if there is no trade or customs deal then everyone loses, it is in the interests of all concerned to have an agreement on trade and customs, if the UK walks away from the talks there is nothing stopping a deal being made at some future date, it shouldn't be terribly difficult since the UK has been trading with the EU for decades
 
as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally, as soon as they try to claim benefits - use medical facilities - work etc etc they will be caught out so it is a waste of time, plus if someone wanted to enter the UK illegally right now there are thousands of miles of coast line without checks so what is stopping them ?
 
It is shameful that Brussels has made the Irish border an issue, there is only one reason they are doing it - to stir shit up were it doesn't need to be.

Can’t help but feel this new Brexit is a bit different from the one being touted before the referendum if it is now ok that when we leave the EU there is no deal and anyone can come to the UK without any border checks as we are going to get the NHS to catch them for us even though they won’t be getting an extra £350m a week to do so.


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[whatsupdoc]

13 minutes ago, smedly said:

Brussels is pulling all the strings, Ireland has little say in the matter

 

The UK is leaving the EU - that is a fact, if there is no trade or customs deal then everyone loses, it is in the interests of all concerned to have an agreement on trade and customs, if the UK walks away from the talks there is nothing stopping a deal being made at some future date, it shouldn't be terribly difficult since the UK has been trading with the EU for decades

 

as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally, as soon as they try to claim benefits - use medical facilities - work etc etc they will be caught out so it is a waste of time, plus if someone wanted to enter the UK illegally right now there are thousands of miles of coast line without checks so what is stopping them ?

 

It is shameful that Brussels has made the Irish border an issue, there is only one reason they are doing it - to stir shit up were it doesn't need to be.

Trade is easy now because the UK is still in the Single Market and complies with EU standards. No longer the case after Brexit and that is where the trade problems start.

 

Are you serious about people entering the UK illegally? Then why were all those people kept at the Jungle in Calais?? Should have let them proceed to the UK.

Edited November 28, 2017 by whatsupdoc

[smedly]

21 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Trade is easy now because the UK is still in the Single Market and complies with EU standards. No longer the case after Brexit and that is where the trade problems start.

 

Are you serious about people entering the UK illegally? Then why were all those people kept at the Jungle in Calais?? Should have let them proceed to the UK.

do you actually know who the people you are referring too in Calais are and how they got there and why they are being held there, seems to me you don't, it also seems to me you have no clue what free movement actually means, ask yourself a simple question, if free movement exists now across the EU why are the people in Calais "Not free to move" lol 

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

do you actually know who the people you are referring too in Calais are and how they got there and why they are being held there, seems to me you don't, it also seems to me you have no clue what free movement actually means, ask yourself a simple question, if free movement exists now across the EU why are the people in Calais "Not free to move" lol 

OMG, you said: "as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally,..."

 

You did not mention any specification about freedom of movement for EU citizens, African illegal immigrants or whatever. To me no border controls means exactly that (no border controls on anyone or anything).

 

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

Brussels is pulling all the strings, Ireland has little say in the matter

 

The UK is leaving the EU - that is a fact, if there is no trade or customs deal then everyone loses, it is in the interests of all concerned to have an agreement on trade and customs, if the UK walks away from the talks there is nothing stopping a deal being made at some future date, it shouldn't be terribly difficult since the UK has been trading with the EU for decades

 

as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally, as soon as they try to claim benefits - use medical facilities - work etc etc they will be caught out so it is a waste of time, plus if someone wanted to enter the UK illegally right now there are thousands of miles of coast line without checks so what is stopping them ?

 

It is shameful that Brussels has made the Irish border an issue, there is only one reason they are doing it - to stir shit up were it doesn't need to be.

No border controls would lead to a large amount of trade deflection.

 

Third countries would use the Irish Republic as a transit point to send goods into the UK without any compliance checks or tariffs. NI would be used in the same way for goods flowing into the EU

 

 

[Orac]

No border controls would lead to a large amount of trade deflection.
 
Third countries would use the Irish Republic as a transit point to send goods into the UK without any compliance checks or tariffs. NI would be used in the same way for goods flowing into the EU
 
 

Would also put us on a very sticky wicket as far as WTO ‘rules’ are concerned without a trade deal/customs union in place.


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[ilostmypassword]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:28 AM, Grouse said:

It is blindingly obvious that some kind of federalised or cantonalised state of Ireland is the optimum solution. Think Wallonia and Flanders (also Catholic/Protestant)

Could you have found a more unfortunate European example than Wallonia and Flanders?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Could you have found a more unfortunate European example than Wallonia and Flanders?

I was thinking of the voting powere Wallonia seems to retain

[taipeir]

Incorrect, the EU was integral to the good Friday agreement.

 

In fact the troubles started before the UK and Ireland entered the EC.

 

The EU also put a lot of funds into Northern Ireland and the border region programs.

 

The British government also agreed to implement the EU human rights directives in Northern Ireland (remember prior to that nortHern Ireland had limited human rights which is why the whole thing kicked off in the first place ).

 

Now without the EU human rights directives guaranteed and the open border it goes pear shaped.

 

It is correct that the EU as a whole determines the border because of the customs union.

[aslimversgwm]

On 27/11/2017 at 12:54 PM, steve187 said:

lots of non hards required by some, no hard brexit, no hard borders, what did we have before the 4th riech took place

What the f.. k is the 4th riech? You might have to learn to spell then we might just about understand the nonsense you post on here dear!

[taipeir]

Could you have found a more unfortunate European example than Wallonia and Flanders?

Its a good point.
But I think Ireland would have more of a case for a federal Ireland due it's history, geography etc. It MRT have more of a caSe but could be unworkable unless all sides but in and have support. Previously that was more feasible as part of the EU which is probably why the DUP are so anti EU .

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[taipeir]

Brussels is pulling all the strings, Ireland has little say in the matter  

The UK is leaving the EU - that is a fact, if there is no trade or customs deal then everyone loses, it is in the interests of all concerned to have an agreement on trade and customs, if the UK walks away from the talks there is nothing stopping a deal being made at some future date, it shouldn't be terribly difficult since the UK has been trading with the EU for decades

 

as for having no border controls, what exact benefit could someone gain by entering the UK illegally, as soon as they try to claim benefits - use medical facilities - work etc etc they will be caught out so it is a waste of time, plus if someone wanted to enter the UK illegally right now there are thousands of miles of coast line without checks so what is stopping them ?

 

It is shameful that Brussels has made the Irish border an issue, there is only one reason they are doing it - to stir shit up were it doesn't need to be.

 

Read the papers. 

Who is asking who for a soft border ?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-barnier-says-eu-at-one-with-varadkar-on-border-demand-1.3298470

 

I think it's very strange that Ireland has to kick up a fuss about soft versus hard border , the final British decision to go for a hard border exit of customs union, no ECFA approach and hard Brexit was supposedly made by just two people right before the Tory conference !

 

Even David Davis didn't know about it in advance!

 

How the hell did that happen ?

 

Surely that should have been thrashed out in parliament and in society.

 

British just getting shoved around by a minority Tory government and a just a faction at that.

 

 

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[vogie]

On 27/11/2017 at 11:04 AM, Grouse said:

Northern Ireland voted to remain; let them.

The Wirral voted to remain; let them, oops sorry I forgot we voted as an Union.

[smedly]

7 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

No border controls would lead to a large amount of trade deflection.

 

Third countries would use the Irish Republic as a transit point to send goods into the UK without any compliance checks or tariffs. NI would be used in the same way for goods flowing into the EU

 

 

like who

[tomacht8]

7 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

No border controls would lead to a large amount of trade deflection.

 

Third countries would use the Irish Republic as a transit point to send goods into the UK without any compliance checks or tariffs. NI would be used in the same way for goods flowing into the EU

 

 

Yes, the EU is interested in clear external borders. It should simply prevent that substandard products, pirated copies and the whole cheap scrap can come into the EU duty-free and uncontrolled. The EU wants to keep its domestic production companies competitive and ensure product safety for the population.

That can not be so difficult to understand.

[Orac]

Looks like the UK are not even looking at contingency plans for an Irish border should no trade deal be agreed with the EU.

 

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-hard-won-kinship-between-britain-and-ireland-is-threatened-by-brexit-idiocy-1.3306660#

 

 

 

 

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[ilostmypassword]

On 11/28/2017 at 12:55 PM, JAG said:

For all those years that "the troubles" raged throughout Northern Ireland, the EU or its predecessors kept as far away as possible.

Now the border is a matter of supreme importance.

The UK and the Republic of Ireland are sovereign states. They can negotiate a solution. Or does Ireland need Brussels permission?

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Yes, Ireland does need Brussel's permission. Ireland is a member of the EU. It's a trading bloc. If all members are free to negotiate with non members about trade and immigration, then it's not much of a trading bloc.

That said, it's just awful how those uncompromising and vengeful bureaucrats in Brussels disregard the interests of smaller nations like Ireland. Disgraceful.  Oh wait...

 

Britain close to Irish border deal

"EU leaders are preparing to offer a two-year Brexit transition deal as early as January after negotiators said that they were close to a breakthrough over the Northern Ireland border.

British officials tabled proposals this week to avoid a “hard border” in Ireland that could unblock the last remaining major obstacle to a deal, The Times understands.

In return the EU will pledge at a summit in Brussels next month to speed up approval for a transition deal that maintains Britain’s present relationship with the EU, reassuring businesses that might otherwise begin implementing plans for a hard Brexit."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-britain-close-to-irish-border-deal-pltcgrvcj