Trump tells Mideast leaders he will move embassy to Jerusalem, breaking with U.S. policy

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

 

Has Trump actually publicly stated a rationale for this? I know it will be BS but I would like to hear his crazy reasoning.

Reading into the remarks made by one of Trump’s top advisers on Israel, David Friedman (Sept. 2016):

• “There is an opportunity for the first time in the history of this country to have a relationship between the US and Israel where Israel is no longer treated as a client state,”
• "it [monetary assistance for Israel] would be “more in the nature of a partnership where we are both on the front lines, Israel frankly, more than the United States, in a joint battle against radical Islam."

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Netanyahu-meets-with-Trump-in-New-York-468662

Maybe not crazy reasoning but to also claim Trump and Kushner will bring a peaceful resolution to the Israel-Palestine conflict was and is crazy.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Obama saved America from a financial armageddon and his  World view was respected around the World with the exception of Israel. israel has been bleeding America for years to the tune of $3Billion and stoking the flames in the Middle East. Israel is no one's friend and  its foreign policy is self centered.  Israel wants war with Iran but wants America to pay for it and that is why Obama refused to kowtow to Israel.

 

Trump on the other hand has no view except that pushed on him by his alt right minions who are willing to push America into a  War with both Iran and N Korea and now with the Palestinians if need be. These people are willing to fight to the last but they never enter the battlefield- they will use the young men and women of the US Armed Forces to follow a destructive policy that will make America and its people continuously at war and get poorer each year. However, the alt right which  already consists of the wealthy will continue to gain more wealth as they seeking further control.

 

The way to get rid of these fools and despots is to continuously expose their failed narrative and for the American people to vote the politicians out of office who support this folly.

 

 

 

Talk about exposing a "failed narrative"...

 

Not that this topic is about USA aid to Israel, but to address your "bleeding" nonsense - most of the USA aid afforded to Israel was used for purchases made in the USA. Them Middle East flames get stoked by many parties, of which the state of Israel is but one. As for its foreign policy being "self centered" - that's pretty much the rule with regard to most countries. War with Iran? I don't think that there's much agreement of that within Israel. Like the USA (and most other countries) various political factions may have different takes. The USA is not about to get into any kind of  "war" with the Palestinians. The alt right doesn't consists "of the wealthy".

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Topdoc said:

It looks like they are deliberately trying to ignite tensions (again)

 

No, that would be you trying to "ignite tensions", by spinning a positive story out of context:

 

From Qom to Medina: Israeli Jew visits holy sites across Muslim world

https://www.timesofisrael.com/from-qom-to-medina-israeli-jew-visits-holy-sites-across-muslim-world/

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Morch

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Trump is contradicting himself.  Nothing new there then.

He knows that Israel has annexed the whole of Jerusalem and declared it Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital in violation of UNSC resolution 478 and international law.

He is also aware that Netanyahu recently talked of "shattering the Palestinian fantasy according to which Jerusalem isn't the ["eternal and indivisible"] capital of Israel."  
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.826988

 

In one breath... his admin calls this an undeniable fact..
“The president believes this is a recognition of reality,” said one official, who briefed reporters on Tuesday about the announcement. "We’re going forward on the basis of a truth that is undeniable. It’s just a fact."

 

Then in the next... he implies this is all still open to negotiation.
"Senior Trump administration officials said Trump's decision was not intended to tip the scale in Israel's favour and that agreeing on the final status of Jerusalem would remain a central part of any peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians."

He can't have it both ways. Or perhaps he is just lying again!

 

And after four successive US administrations since 1995 (Clinton, Bush, Obama, and even Trump 6 months ago) have waived the decision, it begs the question...Why now?.. just a month away from when he was supposedly presenting his ultimate peace deal. You'd be forgiven for thinking he wanted to wreck negotiations, and that there was no ultimate deal after all.

 

You'd be forgiven for assuming that Trump got the attention span to carry out long term policies, or be aware of details, history and nuances.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jsinbkk said:

Obama solved nothing. Trump is right putting a stake through the heart of the "peace process "

 

time to tell the Arabs we get things our way or the highway. 

 

There wasn't any claim made about Obama's administrations "solving" anything. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this excuse for a President making such faulty foreign policy decisions.

 

Trump is not going to the "heart" of anything. This move doesn't address anything, is not (apparently) lodged within a grander design, and its not clear where it is heading.

 

As for "our way" - who's way is this? How does this benefit the USA?

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Morch

[honu]

There doesn't really seem to be any upside to this move.  According to that article it mainly relates to fulfilling a campaign promise, but that sort of thing is completely meaningless to Trump.  I don't even mean that part as some sort of insult; he changes what he says constantly, and is ok with that.  It's easy for fact-checks to prove that he's said things that aren't true hundreds of times (over 2000, I think his tally stands at).  That must either be intentional or just automatic, and it doesn't really matter which, he's not going for consistency.

 

According the ultra-right-wing whack-job comments here this is "really going to show those Arabs," but that makes even less sense.  Show them what?  That Trump thinks the capital of Israel is really Jerusalem?  Or that he doesn't care if they're upset?  What's the point?  His spokespeople are saying this is about "admitting reality" but they don't have any practical spin to go with it, no reason to get around to admitting reality, if that's what moving an embassy amounts to.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Rubbish.

>>As for your "no other choice" nonsense - there are always choices, unless one is a fanatic or a zealot. 
Pray do tell what choice the Palestinians have.

 

All that's left on the table now is ..no Jerusalem, and a patchwork quilt of Bantustans in a non contiguous non viable state that constitute 15% of their homeland.

 

It is quite rational and far from fanatical to say: this is totally unjust and impractical, therefore we are offering to share the land in a single democratic state. Sounds like the wisdom of Solomon to me. (1 Kings 3:16–2)

 

Thanks for confirming yourself a fanatic or a zealot (take your pick). The Palestinians can react in any which way, as they always could. Your ongoing portrayal of the Palestinian people as unable to choose, unable to take charge of their own fate is degrading as it comes.

 

As for your continued nonsense - you do realize that Trump didn't even make his statement yet, and you already call "no Jerusalem" etc... With this sort of reasoning, no wonder you can't fathom the concept of alternatives and choices.

 

Your last paragraph is the usual mumbo jumbo.

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Thanks for confirming yourself a fanatic or a zealot (take your pick). The Palestinians can react in any which way, as they always could. Your ongoing portrayal of the Palestinian people as unable to choose, unable to take charge of their own fate is degrading as it comes.

 

As for your continued nonsense - you do realize that Trump didn't even make his statement yet, and you already call "no Jerusalem" etc... With this sort of reasoning, no wonder you can't fathom the concept of alternatives and choices.

 

Your last paragraph is the usual mumbo jumbo.

 

 

 

I suppose they can react in any way that the Israelis allow. But what can they accomplish when ruled in effect by an occupying power that has consistently disfavored them. In other words, it's not about reaction, it's about power and control.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

I suppose they can react in any way that the Israelis allow. But what can they accomplish when ruled in effect by an occupying power that has consistently disfavored them. In other words, it's not about reaction, it's about power and control.

 

I suppose you can post in the same vein as the other poster, still wouldn't made it any less nonsensical. The Palestinian choices are not predetermined by Israel. People under occupation or living under other forms of oppression do not have but "one way" of addressing their circumstances. The school of thought which relieves the Palestinians of any form of accountability or responsibility for their predicament is absurd, if not disingenuous.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I suppose you can post in the same vein as the other poster, still wouldn't made it any less nonsensical. The Palestinian choices are not predetermined by Israel. People under occupation or living under other forms of oppression do not have but "one way" of addressing their circumstances. The school of thought which relieves the Palestinians of any form of accountability or responsibility for their predicament is absurd, if not disingenuous.

Yes I suppose they have many ways. But given that they are governed by a hostile occupying power, what ways would be effective? If the Palestinians were the only people under the thumb of an occupying power to behave the way they have, you might have a significant point. What legitimate and effective avenue of redress is open to them?

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Yes I suppose they have many ways. But given that they are governed by a hostile occupying power, what ways would be effective? If the Palestinians were the only people under the thumb of an occupying power to behave the way they have, you might have a significant point. What legitimate and effective avenue of redress is open to them?

 

That is a somewhat misleading way of presenting this question. It ignores anything that happened up to this point. The Palestinians had a whole lot of junctions in which they could have opted for compromise, negotiations, non-violence and diplomacy. Part of the their current predicament is a result of bad choices taken. This cannot be ignored, nor can it be said that there were not other options.

 

Sorting their own ranks would be a start. Having a political and social infrastructure that denotes the possibility of forming an independent country, would be a start. Accepting the concessions involved in resolving this conflict will be a start. Otherwise, all them diplomatic moves are pointless. Can't have a country without a semblance of unity. No chances a country will survive without proper governance infrastructure, and no chance they'll get anything without addressing reality. The longer this is dragged on, the more problematic things will get. The Palestinians throwing the toys out of the pram and stomping off wouldn't get them anything whatsoever.

 

The Palestinians could choose to enter negotiations, they could announce their wish to replace the USA with another mediator, choose a wide campaign of non-violent resistance, or they could just wait and see what Trump's statement would include. Seriously...there are a whole lot of variations and options. Narrowing them down to a those shortlisted by partisan posters and labeled inevitable, is nonsense.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Thanks for confirming yourself a fanatic or a zealot (take your pick). The Palestinians can react in any which way, as they always could. Your ongoing portrayal of the Palestinian people as unable to choose, unable to take charge of their own fate is degrading as it comes.

 

As for your continued nonsense - you do realize that Trump didn't even make his statement yet, and you already call "no Jerusalem" etc... With this sort of reasoning, no wonder you can't fathom the concept of alternatives and choices.

 

Your last paragraph is the usual mumbo jumbo.

 

 

 

Apart from the usual flaming and deflection, I notice you don't answer the question: Pray do tell what choice the Palestinians have.

 

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

Apart from the usual flaming and deflection, I notice you don't answer the question: Pray do tell what choice the Palestinians have.

 

 

 

Yawn. Always pretending as if things weren't rehashed over and over again across multiple topics.

 

The Palestinians could choose to enter negotiations with gusto, and/or demand a change of mediator, or embark on campaign based on non-violent resistance, or take up the many things which they ought to have been busy with up to this point - achieving some measure of national unity and reconciliation, developing a social and political infrastructure as prelude to independence, engage non-government forces in Israel, accept the reality that resolution would entail major and painful concessions.

 

Now I'll probably be treated to one of your irrelevant vehement tirades....

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about Iraq have been removed as well as the replies. 

[Jsinbkk]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

There wasn't any claim made about Obama's administrations "solving" anything. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this excuse for a President making such faulty foreign policy decisions.

 

Trump is not going to the "heart" of anything. This move doesn't address anything, is not (apparently) lodged within a grander design, and its not clear where it is heading.

 

As for "our way" - who's way is this? How does this benefit the USA?

 

Nope

 

Trump's teamed with the good guys against the bad guys. 

 

Unlike Obama who betrayed our allies

 

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/27/obama-refusal-israel-vote-most-anti-semitic-2016/

 

 

[Jsinbkk]

1 hour ago, honu said:

There doesn't really seem to be any upside to this move.  According to that article it mainly relates to fulfilling a campaign promise, but that sort of thing is completely meaningless to Trump.  I don't even mean that part as some sort of insult; he changes what he says constantly, and is ok with that.  It's easy for fact-checks to prove that he's said things that aren't true hundreds of times (over 2000, I think his tally stands at).  That must either be intentional or just automatic, and it doesn't really matter which, he's not going for consistency.

 

According the ultra-right-wing whack-job comments here this is "really going to show those Arabs," but that makes even less sense.  Show them what?  That Trump thinks the capital of Israel is really Jerusalem?  Or that he doesn't care if they're upset?  What's the point?  His spokespeople are saying this is about "admitting reality" but they don't have any practical spin to go with it, no reason to get around to admitting reality, if that's what moving an embassy amounts to.

Some people will never understand Trump( more will never like him) but I think he is genius. 

 

He moves the goalpost on his opponents and they go nuts. He gets what he wants ( which is less than asked for but often more than a vast majority). 

 

Travel ban, regulation repeal, tax cuts, now Middle East politics. 

 

Each one of these was unimaginable a year ago. Now they are on the ground facts. 

 

Can you imagine what the Mexican NAFTA negotiators are thinking now?  They are in deep caca and they know it. 

 

trade agreements, Military, judiciary will be completely revamped by 2020. 

 

Donald Trump may go down as one of the most important presidents in modern time. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Jsinbkk

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Jsinbkk said:

Nope

 

Trump's teamed with the good guys against the bad guys. 

 

Unlike Obama who betrayed our allies

 

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/27/obama-refusal-israel-vote-most-anti-semitic-2016/

 

 

 

Good Guys. Bad guys. Betrayal. The Washington Times.

 

 

[tonbridgebrit]

11 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Has bigger things to deal with. Can't believe his supporters even care about this.

 

Perhaps he's just doing it to take attention off his investigations?

????
This move by Trump is massive. This move will trigger off World War Three. And it's not going to be America against Russia. It's not America against China.

It's America against Islam. And for some of Trump's supporters, a war against Islam is what they want.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

????
This move by Trump is massive. This move will trigger off World War Three. And it's not going to be America against Russia. It's not America against China.

It's America against Islam. And for some of Trump's supporters, a war against Islam is what they want.

 

Hyperbole.

[craigt3365]

19 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

????
This move by Trump is massive. This move will trigger off World War Three. And it's not going to be America against Russia. It's not America against China.

It's America against Islam. And for some of Trump's supporters, a war against Islam is what they want.

I just read this was a campaign promise. Linked by the religious nut jobs and wealthy (Jewish?) donors.

 

Absolutely ridiculous. Trump pandering to his fanatical base.

[craigt3365]

23 minutes ago, Jsinbkk said:

Some people will never understand Trump( more will never like him) but I think he is genius. 

 

He moves the goalpost on his opponents and they go nuts. He gets what he wants ( which is less than asked for but often more than a vast majority). 

 

Travel ban, regulation repeal, tax cuts, now Middle East politics. 

 

Each one of these was unimaginable a year ago. Now they are on the ground facts. 

 

Can you imagine what the Mexican NAFTA negotiators are thinking now?  They are in deep caca and they know it. 

 

trade agreements, Military, judiciary will be completely revamped by 2020. 

 

Donald Trump may go down as one of the most important presidents in modern time. 

 

 

The travel ban is far from a done deal. And has cost us untold sums of money. And has actually accomplished nothing. Sad you'd consider thi genius. Far from it.

 

Same with tax cuts. Far from a done deal. And with massive negative consequences for many.

 

The rest? You're delusional.

[Thaidream]

Donald Trump will go down in history for sure- but as one of worst ever simply because he refuses to accept opinions from people who have more experience than he does on various issues.

Trump is following an alt right agenda which sees Ameerica as a super military power that can use this power to intimidate both allies and enemies.  That is why he has increased the defense budget by $70 Billion. 

Trump doesn't care about America or Americans because if he did- he would put forth universal health care; put forth a tax bill that actually helps the middle class and poor by redistributing wealth from the 1% to the 99%; and by having the budget address the provision of free education.

If Trump really cared about America and Americans he would lower the defense and intelligence budgets drastically and use these funds to lower the deficit and fund healthcare. Instead Trump wants to project himself as going after rogue regimes; people he believes threaten American and ally himself with anyone who is prepared to bow and bend to his will.

Israel is a prime case- America has provide billions over many years yet Israel refuses to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians. 

Trump is certainly not smart but he is bordering on a psychosis- narcissistic personality disorder- he makes decisions based only what is in his personal own interest and ignores those things that actually will make America a better country. I certainly have no hate for him as a person but I truly hate his rhetoric; his self aggrandizement and what he is doing to the reputation of America.

[Emster23]

"“The president believes this is a recognition of reality,” said one official"

Trump wouldn't recognize reality if it came up and bit him on his bum

Part of this is to satisfy the escatological extremist fundies that want to bring on Armageddon and return of Jesus. They may get the former, but the later is highly doubtful. "Oops, guess we read that bit wrong... who could have known second coming would be so difficult..."

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Donald Trump will go down in history for sure- but as one of worst ever simply because he refuses to accept opinions from people who have more experience than he does on various issues.

Trump is following an alt right agenda which sees Ameerica as a super military power that can use this power to intimidate both allies and enemies.  That is why he has increased the defense budget by $70 Billion. 

Trump doesn't care about America or Americans because if he did- he would put forth universal health care; put forth a tax bill that actually helps the middle class and poor by redistributing wealth from the 1% to the 99%; and by having the budget address the provision of free education.

If Trump really cared about America and Americans he would lower the defense and intelligence budgets drastically and use these funds to lower the deficit and fund healthcare. Instead Trump wants to project himself as going after rogue regimes; people he believes threaten American and ally himself with anyone who is prepared to bow and bend to his will.

Israel is a prime case- America has provide billions over many years yet Israel refuses to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians. 

Trump is certainly not smart but he is bordering on a psychosis- narcissistic personality disorder- he makes decisions based only what is in his personal own interest and ignores those things that actually will make America a better country. I certainly have no hate for him as a person but I truly hate his rhetoric; his self aggrandizement and what he is doing to the reputation of America.

 

To address the semi-relevant bits of your post, again:

 

Aid funds afforded to Israel by the USA, are mostly spent buying made in USA stuff. As for "refusing to negotiate in good will", this cuts both ways with regard to either side of the conflict. And, of course, the comment skips over them decades in which the Palestinians refused any kind of negotiations whatsoever.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Morch

[Thaidream]

I agree that the Palestinians did not negotiate in good faith when Arafat was in power and I don't care whether Israel used the monies to purchase equipment from the US. It is still money that could have been spent on Americans in America- which is what Trump has continually advocated. However, Trump doesn't want to spend money helping Americans- he spends money on a military which is already the largest in the history of the World.

One cannot possibly keep increasing the military budget under the guise of radical islam; a nuclear NKorea and Iran while Americans are dying and going broke from lack of healthcare; while Americans are in debt trying to pay for University  tuition and then find high paying jobs difficult to find because of American business greed supported by tax cuts for the wealthy.

 

You criticize my post as irrelevant but I assure the vast majority of Americans suffering under the Trump regime and are destined to remain in the crumbling middle class or pushed into the ranks of the poor* believe it is quite relevant. All this while Donald Trump will continue to provide Israel with billions-  oh but that's OK because  they buy US military hardware. Tell that to the seniors who have received hardly any increase in Social SEcurity for years; or to people who are still unemployed because  CEOs keep getting astronomical raises in the millions and will soon be given a tax break amounting to five figures.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I agree that the Palestinians did not negotiate in good faith when Arafat was in power and I don't care whether Israel used the monies to purchase equipment from the US. It is still money that could have been spent on Americans in America- which is what Trump has continually advocated. However, Trump doesn't want to spend money helping Americans- he spends money on a military which is already the largest in the history of the World.

One cannot possibly keep increasing the military budget under the guise of radical islam; a nuclear NKorea and Iran while Americans are dying and going broke from lack of healthcare; while Americans are in debt trying to pay for University  tuition and then find high paying jobs difficult to find because of American business greed supported by tax cuts for the wealthy.

 

You criticize my post as irrelevant but I assure the vast majority of Americans suffering under the Trump regime and are destined to remain in the crumbling middle class or pushed into the ranks of the poor* believe it is quite relevant. All this while Donald Trump will continue to provide Israel with billions-  oh but that's OK because  they buy US military hardware. Tell that to the seniors who have received hardly any increase in Social SEcurity for years; or to people who are still unemployed because  CEOs keep getting astronomical raises in the millions and will soon be given a tax break amounting to five figures.

 

I don't disagree with most of your views on Trump. Irrelevant as in bringing up all of the Trump related baggage on each and every topic. There's enough "meat" in the OP alone...

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Well lets face it, they (the arabs) hate USA and the western world anyway. 

[Thaidream]

There is plenty of meat in the topic but much of it is related to Trump's alt right advisors pushing him every minute to change the World into what they see which is totally against what the majority of America really wants.

Do I want Israel invaded- of course not. However, both of them will need to come to an agreement someday and some way and by Trump trying to place the alt right and Israel- he is stoking the flames of  not only the radical islamists but even the moderate Arab States.

 

I shall leave it at that.

[MisterTee]

18 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I agree that the Palestinians did not negotiate in good faith when Arafat was in power and I don't care whether Israel used the monies to purchase equipment from the US. It is still money that could have been spent on Americans in America- which is what Trump has continually advocated. However, Trump doesn't want to spend money helping Americans- he spends money on a military which is already the largest in the history of the World.

One cannot possibly keep increasing the military budget under the guise of radical islam; a nuclear NKorea and Iran while Americans are dying and going broke from lack of healthcare; while Americans are in debt trying to pay for University  tuition and then find high paying jobs difficult to find because of American business greed supported by tax cuts for the wealthy.

 

You criticize my post as irrelevant but I assure the vast majority of Americans suffering under the Trump regime and are destined to remain in the crumbling middle class or pushed into the ranks of the poor* believe it is quite relevant. All this while Donald Trump will continue to provide Israel with billions-  oh but that's OK because  they buy US military hardware. Tell that to the seniors who have received hardly any increase in Social SEcurity for years; or to people who are still unemployed because  CEOs keep getting astronomical raises in the millions and will soon be given a tax break amounting to five figures.

That's an exceptionally good reply to the familiar talking points that are regurgitated ad nauseam.

[Jsinbkk]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There is plenty of meat in the topic but much of it is related to Trump's alt right advisors pushing him every minute to change the World into what they see which is totally against what the majority of America really wants.

Do I want Israel invaded- of course not. However, both of them will need to come to an agreement someday and some way and by Trump trying to place the alt right and Israel- he is stoking the flames of  not only the radical islamists but even the moderate Arab States.

 

I shall leave it at that.

Look,  building a new nation state is ugly. End of the day possession  is 99%. 

 

Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement just like the Americans and Comanche. 

 

Palestinians can sit around Gaza getting drunk and the Israelis can get on with building a Democratic nation in the Middle East.