British PM May faces pressure to soften Brexit divorce after EU exit deal crumbles

[webfact]

British PM May faces pressure to soften Brexit divorce after EU exit deal crumbles

By Guy Faulconbridge and Kate Holton

 

Union Flags and European Union flags fly near the Elizabeth Tower, housing the Big Ben bell, during the anti-Brexit 'People's March for Europe', in Parliament Square in central London, Britain September 9, 2017. REUTERS/Tolga Akmen/Files

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Hours after a Brexit deal collapsed, British Prime Minister Theresa May came under pressure on Tuesday from opposition parties and even some allies to soften the EU divorce by keeping Britain in the single market and customs union after Brexit.

 

May's ministers said they were confident they would soon secure an exit deal, though opponents scolded the prime minister for a chaotic day in Brussels which saw a choreographed attempt to showcase the progress of Brexit talks collapse at the last minute.

 

The Northern Irish party that props up May's minority government said it was only shown the draft of a deal promising regulatory alignment for both parts of Ireland late on Monday morning.

 

In a sign of just how politically precarious May's Brexit balancing act has become, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) also said it had warned May that it would not support her legislation in parliament unless the draft was changed.

 

The opposition Labour Party said one way for alignment of Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland to become acceptable was for the whole of the United Kingdom to stay in the single market and the customs union.

 

"What an embarrassment - the last 24 hours have given a new meaning to the phrase 'coalition of chaos'," Labour's Brexit spokesman Keir Starmer told parliament. "Yesterday, the rubber hit the road: Fantasy met brutal reality."

 

"Will the Prime Minister now rethink her reckless red lines and put options such as a customs union and single market back on the table for negotiation?" Starmer asked.

 

Nicola Sturgeon, the leader of Scotland's devolved government, said May's failure could signal a push to keep Britain in both.

 

"This could be the moment for opposition and soft Brexit/remain Tories to force a different, less damaging approach - keep the UK in the single market and customs union," Sturgeon said on Twitter. "But it needs Labour to get its act together. How about it @jeremycorbyn?"

 

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who has been tipped as a potential future leader of May's party, also suggested May should consider keeping the United Kingdom in the single market and customs union.

 

May has repeatedly said Britain will leave both groupings when the United Kingdom ends its membership of the EU at 2300 GMT on March 29, 2019. But she has also called for a bespoke economic partnership.

 

Brexit minister David Davis said voters had chosen to leave the EU and that included both the single market and the customs union.

 

Davis said the government would never allow one part of the United Kingdom to remain in the single market after Brexit, though he did allow that regulatory alignment for Northern Ireland could apply to the whole of the United Kingdom.

 

Sterling <GBP=D3> rebounded from a six-day low against the euro on Tuesday to trade flat on the day, with investors cautiously optimistic that a deal on opening up talks on post-Brexit trade would be reached by the end of the week.

 

DUP TAIL WAGGING THE DOG?

 

May, who is now scrambling to thrash out a deal with the EU while keeping Northern Ireland's DUP and her own party onside, may return to Brussels as early as Wednesday to continue talks, a Downing Street official said.

 

"We're very confident that we will be able to move this forward," finance minister Philip Hammond said as he arrived for a meeting with EU counterparts in Brussels.

 

A European Commission spokesman said it was ready to resume Brexit negotiations as soon as London signals it is ready.

 

But the EU will only move to trade talks if there is enough progress on three key issues: the money Britain must pay to the EU; rights for EU citizens in Britain and British citizens in the EU; and how to avoid a hard border with Ireland.

 

Britain must present the European Union with a good offer this week on the terms of its divorce from the bloc, or it will be too late for the EU to prepare by mid-December for the start of talks on a future trade deal, a senior EU diplomat said.

 

"The 'deadline of deadlines' is this week," the diplomat said.

 

All sides say they want to avoid a return to a hard border between EU member Ireland and the British province of Northern Ireland, which might upset the peace established after decades of violence.

 

But DUP leader Arlene Foster said she had told May on Monday that the party could not support her minority government's legislation unless the Irish border draft deal was changed.

 

"When we looked at the wording and saw the import of all that, we knew we couldn't sign up to anything that was in that text that would allow a border in the Irish Sea," Foster told RTE in an interview.

 

After May lost her party its majority in parliament in a June snap election, she is dependent on the DUP's 10 lawmakers in the 650-seat British parliament to ensure she can pass legislation.

 

Nigel Dodds, deputy leader of the DUP, said it would work for as long as needed to get the Brexit deal right but accused Dublin of acting in a reckless and dangerous way that was putting years of Anglo-Irish cooperation in danger.

 

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said London had to make the next move, while Labour's Starmer said the DUP tail was now "wagging the Tory dog".

 

"As things stand, the ball is very much in London's court. There is time to put this agreement back on track and we await to hear from London as soon as they're ready," Varadkar told parliament.

 

(Additional reporting by Elizabeth Piper, William James, Costas Pitas, Alistair Smout and Stephen Addison in London, Elisabeth O'Leary in Edinburgh and Padraic Halpin in Dublin; Editing by Angus MacSwan and Hugh Lawson)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-12-06

[Samui Bodoh]

The most foolish public policy decision ever executed in the most egregiously incompetent manner ever.

 

Apologies to my Brits friends, but...

[FreddieRoyle]

56 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The most foolish public policy decision ever executed in the most egregiously incompetent manner ever.

 

Apologies to my Brits friends, but...

I don't think that Brexit Reversal is officially policy(although judging by May and co's performance you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise). If it were then yes you would be correct. The important thing is that a hard Brexit is delivered and promptly, the whining of the remainer crowd is way beyond a joke. We either have democracy or we don't. If we decide that we don't need democracy, polls etc and just decide by whichever crowd moans the loudest you will have a civil war. That would be foolish.

[Orac]

38 minutes ago, FreddieRoyle said:

I don't think that Brexit Reversal is officially policy(although judging by May and co's performance you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise). If it were then yes you would be correct. The important thing is that a hard Brexit is delivered and promptly, the whining of the remainer crowd is way beyond a joke. We either have democracy or we don't. If we decide that we don't need democracy, polls etc and just decide by whichever crowd moans the loudest you will have a civil war. That would be foolish.

 

Rather than rush into a civil war you need to remember that crafty little device democracy has behind its back - if May cannot retain the confidence of parliament then a vote is needed to determine the way forward based on the current set of circumstances.

[brewsterbudgen]

 
Rather than rush into a civil war you need to remember that crafty little device democracy has behind its back - if May cannot retain the confidence of parliament then a vote is needed to determine the way forward based on the current set of circumstances.

The great thing about democracy is that the people can change their mind! The tide against a self-destructive hard Brexit looks unstoppable - followed by a General Election and a 3rd referendum.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The great thing about democracy is that the people can change their mind! The tide against a self-destructive hard Brexit looks unstoppable - followed by a General Election and a 3rd referendum.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. You can't change your mind because it's a democracy. Because democracy means never having to say you're sorry.

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. You can't change your mind because it's a democracy. Because democracy means never having to say you're sorry.

Actually, I got that slightly wrong. Democracy means never getting to say you're sorry.

[FreddieRoyle]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. You can't change your mind because it's a democracy. Because democracy means never having to say you're sorry.

Not exactly true, but after the next poll which happens because liberals were not pleased with the Brexit result, you will find a terrible thing will happen. Pro Brexiteers will take to the streets claiming that the winners of the vote(if they don't lose twice!!) did not understand what they were voting for, that lies were told, that another referendum is needed, and it will all get very hostile because while in the past differences were settled by way of referenda, in the post liberal world referendums are worthless because if liberals don't like the result they won't accept it and so it goes.

 Am I the only one that thinks the Brexit vote was the end of the discussion. We won. Its time for a good hard Brexit and take control of our trade, our laws and our immigration, using policies to benefit Brits not the 3rd world or European elitists. I can't see how we are even arguing over this. We won, the delays are a travesty of justice. End of.

[brewsterbudgen]

Not exactly true, but after the next poll which happens because liberals were not pleased with the Brexit result, you will find a terrible thing will happen. Pro Brexiteers will take to the streets claiming that the winners of the vote(if they don't lose twice!!) did not understand what they were voting for, that lies were told, that another referendum is needed, and it will all get very hostile because while in the past differences were settled by way of referenda, in the post liberal world referendums are worthless because if liberals don't like the result they won't accept it and so it goes.
 Am I the only one that thinks the Brexit vote was the end of the discussion. We won. Its time for a good hard Brexit and take control of our trade, our laws and our immigration, using policies to benefit Brits not the 3rd world or European elitists. I can't see how we are even arguing over this. We won, the delays are a travesty of justice. End of.

You might not be the only one, but I very much doubt your view is representative of the majority.

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[bkk_mike]

1 hour ago, FreddieRoyle said:

I don't think that Brexit Reversal is officially policy(although judging by May and co's performance you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise). If it were then yes you would be correct. The important thing is that a hard Brexit is delivered and promptly, the whining of the remainer crowd is way beyond a joke. We either have democracy or we don't. If we decide that we don't need democracy, polls etc and just decide by whichever crowd moans the loudest you will have a civil war. That would be foolish.

I don't remember Vote Leave telling people a vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the single market - quite the opposite...

Vote Leave saying we'd obviously stay inside the single market, because, in their own words, "only a madman would leave the single market".

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, FreddieRoyle said:

Not exactly true, but after the next poll which happens because liberals were not pleased with the Brexit result, you will find a terrible thing will happen. Pro Brexiteers will take to the streets claiming that the winners of the vote(if they don't lose twice!!) did not understand what they were voting for, that lies were told, that another referendum is needed, and it will all get very hostile because while in the past differences were settled by way of referenda, in the post liberal world referendums are worthless because if liberals don't like the result they won't accept it and so it goes.

 Am I the only one that thinks the Brexit vote was the end of the discussion. We won. Its time for a good hard Brexit and take control of our trade, our laws and our immigration, using policies to benefit Brits not the 3rd world or European elitists. I can't see how we are even arguing over this. We won, the delays are a travesty of justice. End of.

It was a non-binding referendum unlike those in the past .And Nigel Farage disagrees with you.

And I didn't read of any Brexiters disagreeing with him at the time. Was that because he was such an obscure figure it was hardly worth bothering?

Remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?

"last month he announced that he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin. Calling a small defeat for his leave camp ‘unfinished business’, he predicted a second referendum on Europe. He based this on 52% voting in, 48% out."

 

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/?ito=cbshare

 

 

 

And as for your fantasy of a hard brexit, David Davis disagrees with you:

The Brexit secretary has said that the government is aiming for the UK to still have "alignment" with the European Union after Brexit.

Speaking in the House of Commons, David Davis told MPs: "Alignment isn't harmonisation, it isn't having exactly the same rules, it's sometimes having mutually recognised rules, mutually recognised inspections, that sort of thing. That's what we are aiming for."

http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-davis-says-the-uk-will-stay-aligned-to-eu-trade-rules-after-brexit-2017-12

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The most foolish public policy decision ever executed in the most egregiously incompetent manner ever.

 

Apologies to my Brits friends, but...

I am struggling to actually understand what happened. Arlene Foster's position has been clear since the start - why on earth the PM might think that she would cave in at the last minute is beyond me. It speaks of so much naivety and stupidity that I am finding it difficult to accept. Surely there must have been something more nuanced at play, which has gone unreported? That is what I want to believe because the generally accepted narrative is hugely troubling. 

[AGareth2]

in a parliamentary democracy

parliament cannot bind its successor

new election 

new vote on Brexit

?

[tomacht8]

I do not remember seeing the UK in such a mess since the last 50 years.

Every headless chicken has more plan.

I'm sorry for the UK. 

[citybiker]

I do not remember seeing the UK in such a mess since the last 50 years.
Every headless chicken has more plan.
I'm sorry for the UK. 

I don’t see the situation as a mess rather than poor politics of today, agreed, PMTM really needs to get a grip but the Irish Government are simply doing its level best to detail the whole Brexit process, even the DUP have warned Leo & chums to wind their necks in.

Brexit negotiations are ongoing & challenges are expected, especially after 40 yrs of membership.

The NI border topic was always going to be extremely complex, although Eire/NI mutually agree to no border it’s the EU enforcing the it, so the trouble makers are at source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[the guest]

The only thing for it, is to call for a second referendum.

 

The only difference, instead of misleading the public by way of a silly red bus promoting fake information, inform them of the pro's and con's of the EU, so they can make an informed choice. ATM the British still don't understand what it means to be in the EU.

[ilostmypassword]

42 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

I don’t see the situation as a mess rather than poor politics of today, agreed, PMTM really needs to get a grip but the Irish Government are simply doing its level best to detail the whole Brexit process, even the DUP have warned Leo & chums to wind their necks in.

Brexit negotiations are ongoing & challenges are expected, especially after 40 yrs of membership.

The NI border topic was always going to be extremely complex, although Eire/NI mutually agree to no border it’s the EU enforcing the it, so the trouble makers are at source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

"Even the DUP"???? Really?

[Get Real]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The most foolish public policy decision ever executed in the most egregiously incompetent manner ever.

 

Apologies to my Brits friends, but...

Explaination to that: If the people of a country in a democratic way votes for a government that sucks, and not have a clue about what they are doing. Then it is fair to assume that the people that voted ain´t the sharpest knives in the box. Therefore a foolish public policy decision likes this is possible to acheive.

[Enoon]

4 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

I don't think that Brexit Reversal is officially policy(although judging by May and co's performance you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise). If it were then yes you would be correct. The important thing is that a hard Brexit is delivered and promptly, the whining of the remainer crowd is way beyond a joke. We either have democracy or we don't. If we decide that we don't need democracy, polls etc and just decide by whichever crowd moans the loudest you will have a civil war. That would be foolish.

 

Nigel Farage (expecting a narrow split against his faction) insisted that there would have to be a minimum 60/40 split for the result of the referendum to be credible.  Failure to get that certainty would have laid the way open for his faction to demand a 2nd vote.

 

If the situation had been that his faction had lost by the margin that revealed itself (in the vote that was constituted) we would never have heard the last of it.

 

They would indeed be moaning "the loudest".

 

One of the reasons civil war comes is when the difference between majority/minority is so small that any decision made upon that difference is considered "unreliable" (as this difference was and is) and each side feels justified in taking whatever action they consider is necessary, given that they have the means to do so.

 

It was such a close "parity" of opinion that provoked and sustained the English Civil Wars of the 17th century.

 

With the possible exception of the General Strike the UK has never been closer, since the 17th century, to civil war.

 

The UK has already rendered itself a nation of the......."foolish".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Enoon

[Enoon]

 

2 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

The NI border topic was always going to be extremely complex, although Eire/NI mutually agree to no border it’s the EU enforcing the it, so the trouble makers are at source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

NI was being offered a continued open border and trade with an individual EU member (Eire).

 

The Republic of Ireland wanted it, the UK government agreed, the EU agreed.

 

The DUP vetoed it.

 

"The DUP’s fury had been prompted by a leak early on Monday of a draft 15-page joint statement from the European commission and the UK which suggested Britain had bowed to the Republic of Ireland’s demands by accepting that “in the absence of agreed solutions, the UK will ensure that there continues to be continued regulatory alignment” with the internal market and customs union."

The Guardian.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Enoon

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, citybiker said:

Irish Government are simply doing its level best to detail the whole Brexit process, even the DUP have warned Leo & chums to wind their necks in.

 

Why would a sovereign country take particular heed of lectures from a fringe minority party of another country? Do you think that, if the Peoples Democratic Party of Elbonia was to issue a strongly worded memo to TM, she should jump?

[KhaoNiaw]

Cummings, Hannan, Farage and many of the other liars consistently said that Brexit would not mean leaving the single market. Then article 50 was triggered, without any advance preparation. and the single market and customs union became red lines. Don't let the liars tell you that was what they said all along.
 

 

[citybiker]

   

NI was being offered a continued open border and trade with an individual EU member (Eire).

 

The Republic of Ireland wanted it, the UK government agreed, the EU agreed.

 

The DUP vetoed it.

 

"The DUP’s fury had been prompted by a leak early on Monday of a draft 15-page joint statement from the European commission and the UK which suggested Britain had bowed to the Republic of Ireland’s demands by accepting that “in the absence of agreed solutions, the UK will ensure that there continues to be continued regulatory alignment” with the internal market and customs union."

The Guardian.

 

 

 

 

 

It’s been the DUP stance from day one to be treated ‘equally’ within the ‘United Kingdom’ and not be separated just to please Eire.

 

They’re veto was fully justified.

 

Eire & UK want a no border option (Dublin, Belfast & Westminster) it’s the EU (Brussels) which are enforcing the border issue as HMG proposal wasn’t seen as good enough for the EU.

 @Ruamrudy

 

That fringe party still holds keys to No10 no matter how look at it.

 

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[FreddieRoyle]

Can somebody pls explain the logic of having no southern border in the EU, and yet they seem to need a border between the 2 parts of Ireland? Ships set sail from Italy scooping up every boat leaving Libya - I believe the people smugglers notify the so called "rescue ships" who race along and pick them up turning the occupants lose in Italy, that is even worse than a no southern border scenario. I just can't understand the logic at play. Anybody?

[citybiker]

Can somebody pls explain the logic of having no southern border in the EU, and yet they seem to need a border between the 2 parts of Ireland? Ships set sail from Italy scooping up every boat leaving Libya - I believe the people smugglers notify the so called "rescue ships" who race along and pick them up turning the occupants lose in Italy, that is even worse than a no southern border scenario. I just can't understand the logic at play. Anybody?

There’s various (non-EU) open borders that manage to track & regulate for years yet it’s the EU which are refusing ‘any’ U.K. proposal.

 

The EU’s overall aim & goal is simply focused on a authoritarian methodology, and Brussels must be seen as supporting its MS no matter what (understandably) however the EU’s most consistent reply/feedback to ‘Any’ UK Brexit proposal is ‘insufficient progress’ on just about everything.

 

Smuggling is also another issue, a back door into the U.K. is a significant issue for the UK. Using Eire is just another ongoing tactic.

 

 

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[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 @Ruamrudy

 

That fringe party still holds keys to No10 no matter how look at it.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Sure, but from the Dublin perspective that is irrelevant. The fact remains that the DUP are a position of power within the UK not because they represent the majority of Brits but because they were thrust into role of kingmaker through the hubris of TM. Outside the UK, they should rightly be considered as the annoying little mosquito that doesn't realise its' true place in the bigger picture. 

[ilostmypassword]

39 minutes ago, citybiker said:

There’s various (non-EU) open borders that manage to track & regulate for years yet it’s the EU which are refusing ‘any’ U.K. proposal.

 

The EU’s overall aim & goal is simply focused on a authoritarian methodology, and Brussels must be seen as supporting its MS no matter what (understandably) however the EU’s most consistent reply/feedback to ‘Any’ UK Brexit proposal is ‘insufficient progress’ on just about everything.

 

Smuggling is also another issue, a back door into the U.K. is a significant issue for the UK. Using Eire is just another ongoing tactic.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Which borders would those be? Are they with countries that aren't members of the customs union?

[beautifulthailand99]

8 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The most foolish public policy decision ever executed in the most egregiously incompetent manner ever.

 

Apologies to my Brits friends, but...

No need to apologise my friend you speak the truth.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Can somebody pls explain the logic of having no southern border in the EU, and yet they seem to need a border between the 2 parts of Ireland? Ships set sail from Italy scooping up every boat leaving Libya - I believe the people smugglers notify the so called "rescue ships" who race along and pick them up turning the occupants lose in Italy, that is even worse than a no southern border scenario. I just can't understand the logic at play. Anybody?

Hyperbolic hyperbole. Every boat? So the smugglers notify the authorities and happily turn themselves in to be arrested? No southern border in the EU? If that were the case, then there would be a ferry service from Libya to Italy. Which would be great news for the passengers since the cost would be much lower.

[Khun Han]

21 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Can somebody pls explain the logic of having no southern border in the EU, and yet they seem to need a border between the 2 parts of Ireland? Ships set sail from Italy scooping up every boat leaving Libya - I believe the people smugglers notify the so called "rescue ships" who race along and pick them up turning the occupants lose in Italy, that is even worse than a no southern border scenario. I just can't understand the logic at play. Anybody?

Hyperbolic hyperbole. Every boat? So the smugglers notify the authorities and happily turn themselves in to be arrested? No southern border in the EU? If that were the case, then there would be a ferry service from Libya to Italy. Which would be great news for the passengers since the cost would be much lower.

 

No, it's a simple statement of fact that the border is open for Libyan migrants arriving on boats. And no, the people smugglers don't turn themselves in to be arrested. Why would they? That's one of the advantages of getting "rescue ships" out.