Saving Face, A Selfish Act That Benefits The Culpable Only.

[Bananaman]

I love everything about Thailand except see-a naa. The whole losing/saving face thing is a cultural idiosyncrasy that this country could do without. From my Thai GF telling me I can't complain about the ridiculously poor service in a restaurant because the waitress might lose face, to the government not being prepared to walk away from a policy that is obviously messed up because they'll suffer the same fate, is just plain f**cked up. Saving face is an entirely selfish action that benefits only the person or establishment who does it. If you mess up you admit it, accept the consequences and get over it, period. If you're hindered from taking an action which could potentially have a positive outcome for the majority because you either risk losing face yourself or causing someone else to lose theirs, then how can you ever expect anything to improve or progress?

[jbowman1993]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

[Jookster]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

Ethnocentrism (seeing culture from your own cultural standpoint) is frequently a problem.

But you can understand a culture, and not accept it. Otherwise all culture cannot be criticised.

[Nawtilus]

I agree.

[steveromagnino]

I love everything about Thailand except see-a naa. The whole losing/saving face thing is a cultural idiosyncrasy that this country could do without. From my Thai GF telling me I can't complain about the ridiculously poor service in a restaurant because the waitress might lose face, to the government not being prepared to walk away from a policy that is obviously messed up because they'll suffer the same fate, is just plain f**cked up. Saving face is an entirely selfish action that benefits only the person or establishment who does it. If you mess up you admit it, accept the consequences and get over it, period. If you're hindered from taking an action which could potentially have a positive outcome for the majority because you either risk losing face yourself or causing someone else to lose theirs, then how can you ever expect anything to improve or progress?

get a new girlfriend :-). COmplaining about service has nothing to do with 'face of the waitressing staff' more likely she is worried you don't know the boundaries for how to politely get your point across as opposed to the unpredictable farang crazy crazy situation that so often occurs due to cross culture confusion.

Saving face enables people to live in very close proximity without constant fighting; it is not a surprise that this exists in many parts of the world e.g. Japan where with the ability to say anything, you'd end up with fights and riots the whole time; from Thailand's agricultural background, teamwork and working together (as was required in rice farming past) was a necessity, therefore to ensure harmony of the group was more important than one indidivual's desire to have a scrap.

There are plenty of ways of changing and improving without massive confrontations. And there are plenty of westerners who have major problems admitting mistakes;Some western countries still cannot admit that maybe just maybe some of their foreign policy has been flawed in the past; many of them don't even own up to their involvement in carpet bombing Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia etc even now (run out of Thailand, so therefore Thai related, sort of, maybe).

Before dismissing it, I think you should try to understand what face is and isn't; because in all honesty, it sounds like your girlfriend is using it as an excuse not to have to complain, and that isn't what face is about at all. In fact, people frequently use greng jai as an excuse too; same as some westerners I know use 'that would not be PC' as an excuse for not saying/doing something. Doesn't mean that being politically correct is wrong, it just means the person talking is lazy!

[tutsiwarrior]

complaining about shit service inna restaurant means that the falang complainer (and those that are with him) loses face...a girlfriend in Indonesia explained that to me some time ago...

better to stay at home an' eat a tuna sammich...

Edited January 15, 2007 by tutsiwarrior

[Boon Mee]

If you're hindered from taking an action which could potentially have a positive outcome for the majority because you either risk losing face yourself or causing someone else to lose theirs, then how can you ever expect anything to improve or progress?

The Thai (& most Asian) culture(s) has/have been around thousands of years longer than the Farang so...deal with them on their own terms.

[teletiger]

complaining about shit service inna restaurant means that the falang complainer (and those that are with him) loses face...a girlfriend in Indonesia explained that to me some time ago...

Depends how it's done Tutsi. We westerners tend to complain loudly and angrily. I've see Chinese/Thai quietly rip into waiters, without ever losing their smile. No doubt who lost face on those occasions.

Regards

[sbk]

teletiger is absolutely right. I see plenty of Thai people complain, but do so in a quiet yet deadly way

[singa-traz]

complaining about shit service inna restaurant means that the falang complainer (and those that are with him) loses face...a girlfriend in Indonesia explained that to me some time ago...

It's not because of the complain that you lose face, it's the way you do it.

Usually the waiter/waitress has a different social status then the customer ... so does it really matter if he/she lose face ?

[tutsiwarrior]

complaining about shit service inna restaurant means that the falang complainer (and those that are with him) loses face...a girlfriend in Indonesia explained that to me some time ago...

Depends how it's done Tutsi. We westerners tend to complain loudly and angrily. I've see Chinese/Thai quietly rip into waiters, without ever losing their smile. No doubt who lost face on those occasions.

Regards

a tongue lashing with a smile...I love it...if only we white folks could be so creative...

[KireB]

I agree with bananaman (what a name!). To improve your society and learn from your mistakes, you have to face and admit your mistakes! If Thais want to compete in our globalized world they'll have no choice than to be more direct and honest. A remark like; they've surivided thousands of years without our values is complete rubbish. Look at the general living conditions in Europe and here in Asia!

As we live here it doesn't automatically mean we have to accept everything, I mean the Thais might actually learn something from us as well as we can learn from them!

[farangsay]

If you're hindered from taking an action which could potentially have a positive outcome for the majority because you either risk losing face yourself or causing someone else to lose theirs, then how can you ever expect anything to improve or progress?

The Thai (& most Asian) culture(s) has/have been around thousands of years longer than the Farang so...deal with them on their own terms.

Most Euroean cultures have been around longer than Thai culture ,

but don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

[AlexLah]

Ok lah,

I have this 'problem' at my office as well.

But I now have learned how to let the other person know that they made a wrong decision

without them really loosing face but understand they have to do some things different.

Loosing face happens when you confront someone with their mistakes while others are also there.

In a restaurant

For example say that you became very hungry/thirsty after the starters when dining.

Use language in a smart/funny way so it leaves room for everybody to escape or laugh about it but still understand the message you want to send out to them.

Don't try to change the culture, just find a way to deal with it.

Cheers,

Alex

[farangsay]

Amen Alex

Diplomacy is not a dirty word.

It is better to get your point across

in a gentle friendly manner without

causing embarrassment to anyone.

That having been said I was once

berated by a GF after a distasteful

contact with a nasty little tout in

Patong.

She very heatedly said "You can't

tell a Thai man to f*uck off'

I calmly pointed out that I could

because I had just done so.

[mittheimp]

Saving face and non-confrontation has it's pros and cons. The reason Thailand and Thais appear laid back and outwardly non-judgemental is due to this. However I also have some issues with it. For example a few years ago my then GF was receiving some unwanted attention from a middle aged and often drunk Japnaese businessman. Her way of dealing with this was to be extra polite and extra 'smiley' towards him as this would teach him the right way to be - obviously i argued that if you behave like this then how will he ever know he is doing anything wrong! She argued it was not the Thai way to confront him over his behaviour.

I do believe that a number of Thais will exploit this social convention to their advantage - and it obviously benefits those with power.

[Jet Gorgon]

complaining about shit service inna restaurant means that the falang complainer (and those that are with him) loses face...a girlfriend in Indonesia explained that to me some time ago...

Depends how it's done Tutsi. We westerners tend to complain loudly and angrily. I've see Chinese/Thai quietly rip into waiters, without ever losing their smile. No doubt who lost face on those occasions.

Regards

a tongue lashing with a smile...I love it...if only we white folks could be so creative...

Nice one Tutsi. Yes, I agree with Teletiger and sbk, never show anger, keep that smile pasted on your face and politely request whatever it is you want. Keep the laugh and an exit strategy open for the transgressor. You usually get what you want and everybody goes home content. Or you can go home and throw plants at the wall.

[Jonson83]

Saving face and non-confrontation has it's pros and cons. The reason Thailand and Thais appear laid back and outwardly non-judgemental is due to this. However I also have some issues with it. For example a few years ago my then GF was receiving some unwanted attention from a middle aged and often drunk Japnaese businessman. Her way of dealing with this was to be extra polite and extra 'smiley' towards him as this would teach him the right way to be - obviously i argued that if you behave like this then how will he ever know he is doing anything wrong! She argued it was not the Thai way to confront him over his behaviour.

I do believe that a number of Thais will exploit this social convention to their advantage - and it obviously benefits those with power.

A couple of months ago two of my Thai friends had a bust up,basically one sacked the other and obviously they weren't friends anymore.But she kinda deserved to be sacked and she couldn't really complain about it(which she didnt).

Now i had kept regular contact with both through emails etc but after this only the one who had been sacked emailed me?? The other(who i had known longer) has not emailed me once since the incident.

I guess she is 'saving face' ,but i think that thats kinda selfish.She doesnt have to explain herself to me,she did what she had to do.Mai ben lai! shit happens? I told her this but she has so far refused to reply to my email(s)

I'm going back to los soon and ill be staying(as in living) around the same area as her shop.I'm bound to bump into her..what then? she pretends im not there?

I don't know,pros and cons .....

To me though.Its pretty simple,if you can't admit there is a problem,how do you ever solve it?

[Bananaman]

Whenever you start a topic with an inflammatory title and the potential for a spot of 'thaibashing' you always get the posters who'll do anything to defend their adopted homeland jumping in feet first with their rose-tinted attitudes.

As one poster pointed out, you can understand a culture without accepting it. I've been here long enough to understand how things work and I've seen first hand the negative effect of the saving face thing. I used to work in an office here where much of the quality of the work was substandard. When I quietly asked my boss one day why she didn't pull up Mr. X and Miss Y for their poor performance, she told me it was because she didn't want them to lose face. So the company as a whole has to suffer because you gotta avoid stepping on the feelings of the individual? What utter tosh.

Complaining loudly and aggressively benefits no one, I wholeheartedly agree, however not saying anything just preserves the already questionable status quo. Surely people want to improve in whatever they do in life? If nobody ever tells you that you're doing something incorrectly then they're doing you an injustice by not allowing you the opportunity to do it better.

"The Thai (& most Asian) culture(s) has/have been around thousands of years longer than the Farang so...deal with them on their own terms"

Sorry Boon Mee but just cos sthgs been around a long time, it don't mean it's either right or better than something else. The tradition of burning everything in this country has been around a long time, don't make it right, the mia noi culture is as old as time, don't make it right, women's inequality to men has been a feature of human existence for as long as we've been writing history....don't make it right. Need I go on?

[rak sa_ngop]

Western business practices have obviously been developed for Western style business and most, if not all, global businesses try to follow these modern management techniques.

When I was in Laos I was helping some Laos employees of an international NGO work through some units of an American management course. When we reached the unit on Conflict Resolution the replies I got were "in Laos can not", "in Laos can not" when discussing different ways of solving office problems.

And that's the problem I think: Asian cultures are incompatible with modern global thinking. Maybe that's why I have most of my long term investments in Western markets, (but I love living here).

[Jet Gorgon]

It's their system, Bananaman. It works for them and they all know the parameters. We have alot of guff in the West and the PC people do the same "idiotic" things with lazy, unproductive workers -- let's not upset their feelings, etc. That's face, too, they just don't know the Asian concept of it. And bad things? How about mormons with many wives, muslim women forbidden from working, driving or talking but expected to produce sons and then die from stoning if another man rapes them? List is too long. Asia's system may be weird, but it works. And they look after family and close friends. Grans, gramps, aunties, nieces, nephews. My neighbours always have a new member. Pretty rare in the West.

[jetjock]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

[Bananaman]

It's their system, Bananaman. It works for them and they all know the parameters. We have alot of guff in the West and the PC people do the same "idiotic" things with lazy, unproductive workers -- let's not upset their feelings, etc. That's face, too, they just don't know the Asian concept of it. And bad things? How about mormons with many wives, muslim women forbidden from working, driving or talking but expected to produce sons and then die from stoning if another man rapes them? List is too long. Asia's system may be weird, but it works. And they look after family and close friends. Grans, gramps, aunties, nieces, nephews. My neighbours always have a new member. Pretty rare in the West.

You say it works for them but does it really? Might this not be one of the main reasons why Thailand isn't successful in the global marketplace?

[Jet Gorgon]

It's their system, Bananaman. It works for them and they all know the parameters. We have alot of guff in the West and the PC people do the same "idiotic" things with lazy, unproductive workers -- let's not upset their feelings, etc. That's face, too, they just don't know the Asian concept of it. And bad things? How about mormons with many wives, muslim women forbidden from working, driving or talking but expected to produce sons and then die from stoning if another man rapes them? List is too long. Asia's system may be weird, but it works. And they look after family and close friends. Grans, gramps, aunties, nieces, nephews. My neighbours always have a new member. Pretty rare in the West.

You say it works for them but does it really? Might this not be one of the main reasons why Thailand isn't successful in the global marketplace?

I was referring to Asia in general. Japan made it work. China is getting there, albeit at a price to people, environment, etc (which we also did for many decades). Does Thailand have to be tops in the global market to be successful? Same <deleted> and worse in the US and Europe and they are so successful. Enjoying life seems to be pretty high on local living lists. Like on mine, too. Maybe that's why Thais want to regulate farang...

[November Rain]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

[sbk]

Learn to speak Thai better I am afraid. They do it to each other, nothing is going to stop them from doing it with you.

[Jet Gorgon]

I think SBK has the answer, November Rain. Also, if the workers don't agree with what you want done, they will say OK and then not do it. I know another rescue person who demanded that the workers filll in holes the dogs dug everyday. The workers thought, what for? The dogs will just dig more holes tomorrow. She fired them all, got new workers and they did the same thing. Use your reasoning power, I guess. It ain't easy! Chock dee.

[t.s]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

its naa-taak, not see-a naa. Besides, the adjective always goes after the noun, so even if you were correct in your choice of words, it would be reversed: na see-a

strange your wife couldn't be bothered to correct you. pehaps she wanted you to save face?

[ThaiGoon]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

You reminded me of myself when I was still beginning to learn English. I always nodded and acted like I understood what was said in English, even if I didn't. And I still can put a finger as to why I (and many other Thais) did that. Perhaps it was the sense or feeling that we didn't wanna upset that farang or we were afraid of emabarassing ourselves if we admitted that we didn't have a freaking clue about what had been said. Hmmm...I guess it's more of the latter.

Actually even now I still do it sometimes....but not if it's something serious like work related stuff though.

[sbk]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

You reminded me of myself when I was still beginning to learn English. I always nodded and acted like I understood what was said in English, even if I didn't. And I still can put a finger as to why I (and many other Thais) did that. Perhaps it was the sense or feeling that we didn't wanna upset that farang or we were afraid of emabarassing ourselves if we admitted that we didn't have a freaking clue about what had been said. Hmmm...I guess it's more of the latter.

Actually even now I still do it sometimes....but not if it's something serious like work related stuff though.

I do it with my mother-in-law, to this day I have difficulty understanding her when she gets up to speed (nobody talks faster than an older Southern Thai lady). So, I nod my head, try to pick out the words I can understand and then tell my husband to call his mother and find out what she wanted. It makes life alot easier