Saving Face, A Selfish Act That Benefits The Culpable Only.

[jetjock]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

its naa-taak, not see-a naa. Besides, the adjective always goes after the noun, so even if you were correct in your choice of words, it would be reversed: na see-a

strange your wife couldn't be bothered to correct you. pehaps she wanted you to save face?

Actually TS, Jetjock was merely quoting me when he used the expression see-a naa so don't go the heavy hand with him. FYI see-naa is as accurate as naa see-a, the two can be used interchangeably depending on the context and that info comes care of the native speaker sat right next to me.

odd, the native speaker next to me is in agreement with me. ironic that no one wants to tell us who is wrong.

You say potayto....

After all this discussion of see-a na, na see-a and naa-taak, I went back to my wife who has a Master's Degree and speaks fluient Thai and fluent English and asked her to sort it out just for my own curiousity. See-a na is an intransitive verb that means to 'lose face', Na-see-a is an intransitive verb that means 'look pale'. Na-taak direct translation means breaking face and basically has more to do with misunderstanding etc. At least this discussion has helped my Thai language skills 'nit noi' .

[teacup]

Face saving is actually “butt saving” - non-confrontational communication style - hiding/ lying feelings emotions to save ones own face or the others. Saving face by lying is common trait everywhere, not necessary an exclusive thai culture. And it’s not always a bad thing.

Don’t you like it when BG called you “hansum”? ….eventhough you don’t seem to confirm this every times in front of a mirror….or do you get upset and walk away!

Or

when you tell your new acquired thai gf…. “If I could see you naked, I'd die happy”

She probably will say “Ok let’s go, how much”, or

you would rather hearing the truth from her likes "Yeah, but if I saw you naked, I'd probably die laughing."

Don’t tell me you guys have never lied to save you own face

•"Honey, we don't need material things to prove our love."

Really means....

"I forgot our anniversary again."

Or

•"I heard you."

Really means....

"I haven't the foggiest clue what you just said, and am hoping desperately that I can fake it well enough so that you don't spend the next 3 days yelling at me."

Or

•"I don't need to read the instructions."

Really means....

"I am perfectly capable of screwing it up without printed help."

[PhilHarries]

Don’t tell me you guys have never lied to save you own face

•"Honey, we don't need material things to prove our love."

Really means....

"I forgot our anniversary again."

That's not saving face, that's trying to save yer sorry ass and has about as much chance of succeeding as meeting a snowball in hel_l which is where you will be spending some time!

[jamman]

Well that's my 25 satang worth, I'll be off for a few Tigers now and soon all this will make perfect sense.

What a great, respectful yet cutting post.

The face issue is a sign of personal developmental delay on a culture wide scale, and we are right to not only point it out, but to expect more.

[a2396]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

To understand it does not mean you have to agree with this negative aspect of the cultural SHIT of the region. If a country wants to develop & progress to a higher level, they need to change, adopt and improve. This is one aspect of the culture that needs to be downplayed considerably.

[lannarebirth]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

To understand it does not mean you have to agree with this negative aspect of the cultural SHIT of the region. If a country wants to develop & progress to a higher level, they need to change, adopt and improve. This is one aspect of the culture that needs to be downplayed considerably.

What's the difference between "face" of the east, and political correctness of the west? It's all lies. I'd hate to be in a position to defend either.

[jamman]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

To understand it does not mean you have to agree with this negative aspect of the cultural SHIT of the region. If a country wants to develop & progress to a higher level, they need to change, adopt and improve. This is one aspect of the culture that needs to be downplayed considerably.

What's the difference between "face" of the east, and political correctness of the west? It's all lies. I'd hate to be in a position to defend either.

I agree with that insight. Political correctness is just one version of a reality tunnel, where you exclude information and sensations that don't match your pre-conception of the way things "should" be. It is a self perpetuating self-hypnosis, to see only what you believe in. Face is similar. Don't see or mention what causes embarassment.

The cure to both forms of delusion is brutal honesty.

[steveromagnino]

The cure to both forms of delusion is brutal honesty.

This implies that you think that both people don't know what is going on.

Not everything needs to be spelt out in crude language for everyone to have a clear understanding for what is going on.

I for one am against brutal honesty; it would cause riots in Nana once all the great unwashed in those parts learned that in fact they are not hansum, they aren't well hung, they aren't important, they are going to be paying and they have the worst personal hygiene known to man.

Or....maybe just maybe, there are benefits to taking measures so that people can get along? It isn't black and white; some shade of grey I think is best.

[baboon]

We farangs have our own version of saving face, Its called 'not wanting to look like a complete pillock in front of everybody'

You have hit the nail on the head. Try to make most Westerners look stupid in front of their friends or workmates and you would most likely get your head kicked in or at least recieve a torrent of abuse. Why? Loss of face. To me the Thai or Western "face" seem to be 2 sides of the same coin.

Edited January 19, 2007 by baboon

[sbk]

Face saving is actually “butt saving” - non-confrontational communication style - hiding/ lying feelings emotions to save ones own face or the others. Saving face by lying is common trait everywhere, not necessary an exclusive thai culture. And it’s not always a bad thing.

Don’t you like it when BG called you “hansum”? ….eventhough you don’t seem to confirm this every times in front of a mirror….or do you get upset and walk away!

Or

when you tell your new acquired thai gf…. “If I could see you naked, I'd die happy”

She probably will say “Ok let’s go, how much”, or

you would rather hearing the truth from her likes "Yeah, but if I saw you naked, I'd probably die laughing."

Don’t tell me you guys have never lied to save you own face

•"Honey, we don't need material things to prove our love."

Really means....

"I forgot our anniversary again."

Or

•"I heard you."

Really means....

"I haven't the foggiest clue what you just said, and am hoping desperately that I can fake it well enough so that you don't spend the next 3 days yelling at me."

Or

•"I don't need to read the instructions."

Really means....

"I am perfectly capable of screwing it up without printed help."

laughed my head off on this one teacup.

[jamman]

The cure to both forms of delusion is brutal honesty.

This implies that you think that both people don't know what is going on.

Not everything needs to be spelt out in crude language for everyone to have a clear understanding for what is going on.

I for one am against brutal honesty; it would cause riots in Nana once all the great unwashed in those parts learned that in fact they are not hansum, they aren't well hung, they aren't important, they are going to be paying and they have the worst personal hygiene known to man.

Or....maybe just maybe, there are benefits to taking measures so that people can get along? It isn't black and white; some shade of grey I think is best.

Yes, I was implying that lying makes a person deluded, that people can wind up fooling themselves. When talking about face, the person wants to avoid responsibility, and acts as if they have no responsibility. It's self delusion as well as a front - even if at some hidden level they feel culpable. They feel they get to get away with whatever they did with no consequence, as long as it isn't made too apparent. The avoidance of a sense of causality - that they did what they did - is a delusion, that can only be broken by brute truth.

I do agree with you that "brutal honesty" doesn't always work unless it is also, at the same time, very diplomatic. Truth can be fed in diplomatic and digestible doses. There are many ways to be brutally honest, without having to be in your face and hurtful about it. Brutal, in this sense, is meant to mean uncompromising, not hurtful.

Sure, we need to take measures so that people get along. That is called diplomacy. It isn't called insincerity and truth avoidance.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[jamman]

Brutal honesty. I had to look it up. A brute is an unregulated wild beast, a contrast to our more refined human sensibilities. Webster defines brutal honesty as "unpleasantly accurate and incisive". So brutal honesty is accurate and incisive, but lacking in the skillful embrace of a human empathy.

I've spent time honing the deconstructive skills that Buddhists use. Their art is unpleasantly accurate and incisive.

Growing up is unpleasantly accurate and incisive.

What is molly coddling? It is making all nicy nice, at the expense of letting someone grow up through their necessary pains. Sounds like saving someone face.

It is difficult to be accurate and incisive, while also being nurturing. But any mother or father or caring friend or dispassionate stranger has to allow tough lessons, and not molly coddle.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[jamman]

We farangs have our own version of saving face, Its called 'not wanting to look like a complete pillock in front of everybody'

You have hit the nail on the head. Try to make most Westerners look stupid in front of their friends or workmates and you would most likely get your head kicked in or at least recieve a torrent of abuse. Why? Loss of face. To me the Thai or Western "face" seem to be 2 sides of the same coin.

Most westerners? British hooligans, maybe.

[taxin]

Face is nothing more than an excuse for Thais to be cowards and liars !

An excuse to cover up there own fear in facing upto life's awkward challenges, in other words.... COWARDS !!!

Instead of sucking up to your Mias and teeraks pretending to "understand" there culture, try educating them instead. Tell them what face actually means, and the REAL reason why there great nation created such utter nonsense !!

[jamman]

Face saving is actually “butt saving” - non-confrontational communication style - hiding/ lying feelings emotions to save ones own face or the others. Saving face by lying is common trait everywhere, not necessary an exclusive thai culture. And it’s not always a bad thing.

Don’t you like it when BG called you “hansum”? ….eventhough you don’t seem to confirm this every times in front of a mirror….or do you get upset and walk away!

Or

when you tell your new acquired thai gf…. “If I could see you naked, I'd die happy”

She probably will say “Ok let’s go, how much”, or

you would rather hearing the truth from her likes "Yeah, but if I saw you naked, I'd probably die laughing."

Don’t tell me you guys have never lied to save you own face

•"Honey, we don't need material things to prove our love."

Really means....

"I forgot our anniversary again."

Or

•"I heard you."

Really means....

"I haven't the foggiest clue what you just said, and am hoping desperately that I can fake it well enough so that you don't spend the next 3 days yelling at me."

Or

•"I don't need to read the instructions."

Really means....

"I am perfectly capable of screwing it up without printed help."

I like it that you try to make sense out of the confusion.

We all do it, in our own style.

Some of us like to create a mental nest, picking up happy thoughts, placing them in cozy positions, for a safe place to live. Others wonder and wonder, test new ideas in the hopes to get even newer ideas. Stare in awe, throw themselves against the rocks of wonder, die to love, or die to whatever is - are religious in reverence of something outside of themselves - the facts of experience.

In short, no, not everyone gets satisfaction from lies. Some of us get the opposite.

[somtaamgaiyang]

Face saving is actually “butt saving” - non-confrontational communication style - hiding/ lying feelings emotions to save ones own face or the others. Saving face by lying is common trait everywhere, not necessary an exclusive thai culture. And it’s not always a bad thing.

Don’t you like it when BG called you “hansum”? ….eventhough you don’t seem to confirm this every times in front of a mirror….or do you get upset and walk away!

Or

when you tell your new acquired thai gf…. “If I could see you naked, I'd die happy”

She probably will say “Ok let’s go, how much”, or

you would rather hearing the truth from her likes "Yeah, but if I saw you naked, I'd probably die laughing."

Don’t tell me you guys have never lied to save you own face

•"Honey, we don't need material things to prove our love."

Really means....

"I forgot our anniversary again."

Or

•"I heard you."

Really means....

"I haven't the foggiest clue what you just said, and am hoping desperately that I can fake it well enough so that you don't spend the next 3 days yelling at me."

Or

•"I don't need to read the instructions."

Really means....

"I am perfectly capable of screwing it up without printed help."

I like it that you try to make sense out of the confusion.

We all do it, in our own style.

Some of us like to create a mental nest, picking up happy thoughts, placing them in cozy positions, for a safe place to live. Others wonder and wonder, test new ideas in the hopes to get even newer ideas. Stare in awe, throw themselves against the rocks of wonder, die to love, or die to whatever is - are religious in reverence of something outside of themselves - the facts of experience.

In short, no, not everyone gets satisfaction from lies. Some of us get the opposite.

Change is a very dangerous thing in Asian culture/business. To change a process or activity is a very long drawn out process. It involves risk and a leap into the unknown

This maybe down to education on the basis that a teacher in Thai culture is an omniscient person to be listened to respected and obeyed far beyond our concept of a teacher in the west. This extends largely to parents/bosses and elders. Therefore do not expect your employees to take the lead in most things, they need very very clear instructions before they will undertake anything for fear of getting it wrong and therefore letting you down/losing face/p*****g you off. To fail when instructed clearly is obviously a gross failure since there was no ambiguity. Therefore, to do nothing is often the safest option.

This does in no way extend to all people in Asia, but to let one's boss down is to play with fire, since the boss protects and nurtures your career much like a teacher nurtures a student. He knows all, controls all and has your future (under Thai law particularly) completely in his hand. This leads to all sorts of other problems which are too many to describe here. To change it, the idea of absolute patriarchal knowledge needs to be dismantled, but then that would mean dismantling something else also.

[phibunmike]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

I am guilty of sometimes nodding and smiling when I haven't understood, but only in a conversational scenario - as someone else said, it gets boring to keep asking "arai-na?".

Sometimes, I think I understand but get it wrong. If my wife suspects this, she has developed a good strategy:

She: "Did you understand?"

Me: "Yes"

She: "What did you understand?"

[jamman]

Change is a very dangerous thing in Asian culture/business. To change a process or activity is a very long drawn out process. It involves risk and a leap into the unknown

This maybe down to education on the basis that a teacher in Thai culture is an omniscient person to be listened to respected and obeyed far beyond our concept of a teacher in the west. This extends largely to parents/bosses and elders. Therefore do not expect your employees to take the lead in most things, they need very very clear instructions before they will undertake anything for fear of getting it wrong and therefore letting you down/losing face/p*****g you off. To fail when instructed clearly is obviously a gross failure since there was no ambiguity. Therefore, to do nothing is often the safest option.

This does in no way extend to all people in Asia, but to let one's boss down is to play with fire, since the boss protects and nurtures your career much like a teacher nurtures a student. He knows all, controls all and has your future (under Thai law particularly) completely in his hand. This leads to all sorts of other problems which are too many to describe here. To change it, the idea of absolute patriarchal knowledge needs to be dismantled, but then that would mean dismantling something else also.

You've described well the particulars. Men are Momma's boys, women are Pappa's girls. A heroic individual is a transgressor, too selfish. There is a life stage that happens to most teens, sometime near puberty, of revolt, of individuating. Thais don't do that. There are no Thai hippies, no counterculture, very few daring intellectuals. Individuality can't develop in the face of face.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[PeaceBlondie]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

November Rain, as a teacher, I find this problem really frustrating. ThaiGoon explained it, but the students will always say "Yes, kojai" when they don't have a clue. In a good TEFL class in Thailand, new teachers are taught not to ask, "Do you understand?" You have to 'elicit' a response that proves they understand, and that's really difficult to do. I loved it in class, the first time that one of the brightest students finally had the nerve to say, "But teacher, we don't understand!" I said to her that she had given the best answer.