Is it allowed to drive company car with company goods without work permit ?

[JohnnyBKK]

Hello,

 

I'm the co-director of a thai company in which we have a company car. I want to know if I'm allowed to drive the car if the car transport company goods inside without work permit ?

 

Is it considered work to drive the car if company goods are inside the car ? On a more general note, I asked earlier if I was allowed to drive the company car without work permit and people said yes but I'm still unsure of this as it could be considered work to drive the company car, no ?

 

Best regards,

[FritsSikkink]

You need a work permit to be director anyway.

[JohnnyBKK]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

You need a work permit to be director anyway.

This is not true.

[FritsSikkink]

Just now, JohnnyBKK said:

This is not true.

Up to you

[FritsSikkink]

not as a shareholder, a director who makes decision, yes.

[JohnnyBKK]

A director of a thai company don't need to have a work permit to be a director or to attend meetings of the company. Being a director is not considered as work, engaging in work as a director is different.

[elviajero]

7 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You need a work permit to be director anyway.

 

4 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

not as a shareholder, a director who makes decision, yes.

You don't need a WP to be a Director to make decisions.

[elviajero]

I don't see a problem using the car for personal use.

 

Driving a company car while goods are in it that aren't being delivered sounds like a grey area that you'd need confirmed by your labour office.

[JohnnyBKK]

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I don't see a problem using the car for personal use.

 

Driving a company car while goods are in it that aren't being delivered sounds like a grey area that you'd need confirmed by your labour office.

Indeed, I asked a few friends and they said to be safe I should employ a driver for the day and sit in the car as passenger only as the car will carry 35 computing units that are goods of the company.

[FritsSikkink]

33 minutes ago, elviajero said:

 

You don't need a WP to be a Director to make decisions.

Yes you do, question is about Do I need a work permit to sit on my condo committee?:

Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department’s existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant “B” visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13.

Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

 

https://www.phuketgazette.net/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-sit-on-my-condo-committee

[JohnnyBKK]

33 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Yes you do, question is about Do I need a work permit to sit on my condo committee?:

Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department’s existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant “B” visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13.

Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

 

https://www.phuketgazette.net/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-sit-on-my-condo-committee

Old news from 2012, the law changed since then ! You do not need a WP to sign papers as director of the company. Signing papers is not work.

[FritsSikkink]

11 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Old news from 2012, the law changed since then ! You do not need a WP to sign papers as director of the company. Signing papers is not work.

show me some proof that the law changed please.

[JohnnyBKK]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

show me some proof that the law changed please.

The lawyer told me that, I do not have the proof myself. I asked him if I was allowed to sign anything while not having my work permit yet and he said yes because I'm the director of the company, signing documents is not work. Sometimes your signature is required for example to open or close a bank account, a director can be a foreigner living in another country (or in Thailand) and he has to sign the document to allow for the opening of the bank accounts.

[JohnnyBKK]

Example : https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/990476-do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-supervise-the-49-of-shares-of-my-company/?tab=comments#comment-12046115

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Yes you do, question is about Do I need a work permit to sit on my condo committee?:

Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department’s existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant “B” visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13.

Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

 

https://www.phuketgazette.net/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-sit-on-my-condo-committee

The question was nothing to do with sitting on a condo committee!!

 

You said that a Director needs a WP to make decisions. They don't. I am a company Director and don't have a WP. I sit on board meetings and make day to day decisions about the company. The Managing Director (not me) and the companies employees carry out the decisions.

Edited December 11, 2017 by elviajero

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

The question was nothing to do with sitting on a condo committee!!

 

You said that a Director needs a WP to make decisions. They don't. I am a company Director and don't have a WP. I sit on board meetings and make day to day decisions about the company. The Managing Director (not me) and the companies employees carry out the decisions.

The chief of the work permit deparment says otherwise: 

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.
 

Edited December 11, 2017 by FritsSikkink

[Maestro]

35 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Normally, being on a committee...

 

Who said he was on a committee?

 

I am under the impression that this topic is about being a director, ie a member of the board of directors, not about a condominium committee. Whoever brought the condominium committee into the discussion was off topic and that post should be ignored.

[Get Real]

No, you can´t engage in a work that can be done by employment without a work permit.
The question of signing papers as a director, then most of that can be done without. 
Delivering goods for the company is considered a work, which requires a work permit.

[onera1961]

Shouldn't company related legal questions be directed to company lawyers instead of forum posts? Are legal decisions in Thailand made using crowd sourcing and debates in online forums?

Edited December 11, 2017 by onera1961

[BritTim]

9 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

show me some proof that the law changed please.

It is not really a matter of the law changing, but there were announcements that make clear some activities are either legal or tolerated without work permits (even on tourist visas). See, for instance, http://www.emigra.com/news/thailand-expanded-list-of-activities-considered-not-working/.

 

The activities allowed, as announced above, seem to assume short visits to the country, rather than continuous ongoing employment. However, I think occasional meetings and decision making as a director is likely to be tolerated. It would be unwise to have your own office without a work permit!

[Hans Rayong]

New law since last year.

 

Thailand’s Employment Department found that, in some cases, foreign national company directors were signing corporate income tax and financial statements even though they did not hold a Thai work permit. This was a problem because “signing documents” is considered productive work in Thailand. Thai authorities have now made it clear that foreign nationals cannot sign company tax documents or financial statements without a work permit.

 

Still you can sign documents as anual statement.

 

You can be a director if you are not workning!

[Autonuaq]

You can not get a work permit and do things a thai national is entitled to do.

 

Driving goods is not a in the scope of a director.

This answers the question if I understood you correctly.

 

Company car you probably can drive as long as it looks like a regular car.

 

Not an adapted car, like for example towcar or water car or distribution car like they have based on normal car.

[meinphuket]

15 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You need a work permit to be director anyway.

Incorrect.

[casualbiker]

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

The question was nothing to do with sitting on a condo committee!!

 

You said that a Director needs a WP to make decisions. They don't. I am a company Director and don't have a WP. I sit on board meetings and make day to day decisions about the company. The Managing Director (not me) and the companies employees carry out the decisions.

Do you earn a salary for the duties of Director? Do you live in Thailand on an extension of stay? 

[scorecard]

15 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

The lawyer told me that, I do not have the proof myself. I asked him if I was allowed to sign anything while not having my work permit yet and he said yes because I'm the director of the company, signing documents is not work. Sometimes your signature is required for example to open or close a bank account, a director can be a foreigner living in another country (or in Thailand) and he has to sign the document to allow for the opening of the bank accounts.

 

Keep in mind that the Thai WP regulations are meant to cover activities conducted on Thai soil.

 

Signing as a director located physically outside of Thailand brings up another ball game.

[FritsSikkink]

9 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Who said he was on a committee?

 

I am under the impression that this topic is about being a director, ie a member of the board of directors, not about a condominium committee. Whoever brought the condominium committee into the discussion was off topic and that post should be ignored.

Read and copy the whole post and don't take only a part out of it that suits you.

Edited December 12, 2017 by FritsSikkink

[berybert]

Seems you are not just wanting to drive the company car with company goods in it. Seems you will be delivering the goods to different places. 

So is it legal for you to work as a delivery driver without a work permit might have been a better question. But being as you know the answer would be no you chose to answer the question differently.

If you were followed by someone in authority whilst delivering these computers what question would you put to him after the 5th or 6th delivery he had seen you make. 

Mind you 10 years in jail or 500 baht for a driver for the day. Tough choice.

 

[khunPer]

20 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You need a work permit to be director anyway.

No, not if you are acting as board member only, and only sign to approve annual statements, and like overall documents. 

(For proof, search for a news article from Phuket a few years ago, where it's stated by Big Boss of Immigration.)

 

Yes, if you do any physical activities in the company beyond the high level board – as example has been mentioned filling in a bank deposit slip – you'll need a Work Permit.

 

In reply to OP's question

20 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Is it considered work to drive the car if company goods are inside the car ?

–I would say "yes"; but probably only a problem if stopped in a police-check, or someone report it to Immigration...

 

Depending of where one live in Thailand, and the level of business – in some branches one may be envied more than others, increasing the risk for "operating under the radar" – I would be very careful of exposure related to "work".

I've seen bar-owner, without a Work Permit, never ever moving behind the bar desk – because that could be considered work – and only sitting at the "right side" and observing, and signalling mrs. Big Boss, if anything was not correct in the owner's opinion.

But I've also seen a foreigner single-handed operating a street kitchen in markets – presumably without any locals complaining – however some time with one Asia-looking (male) assistent; not what one expect with business terms stating four, or two if married partnership, Thai employees per alien Work Permit. (EDIT: I actually regular see several farangs single-handed selling stuff from stalls at local markets.)

Looks like it's a question of finding the right balance relative to the area one live in...

Edited December 12, 2017 by khunPer

[Prince77]

Try to clarify:

 

1. yes, you can drive a company car without work permit, pre-conditioned you have a driving licence.

2. yes, you can drive the company car even if there are company goods inside as long as those goods are not illegal.

3, No, you cannot drive the company car with company goods inside, when you intend to supply those to a client - this would be work.

 

A company director does not need a work permit. The crucial difference whether you need a work permit or not is, if your decisions, signatures, orders... will have effect internally or externally!

 

Internally you can act, decide, sign whatever you want as long as you have sufficient share of that Company. You can do that within Thailand or from any other Country.

 

However whatever you sign, decide....which has effect externally (like hire-, fire staff, re-name company, sign Company documents like tax declarations or balance Sheets..), need to be realized by someone who holds a work permit.

 

Trust this makes sense.

[Bastos60]

On 12/11/2017 at 1:48 PM, JohnnyBKK said:

Old news from 2012, the law changed since then ! You do not need a WP to sign papers as director of the company. Signing papers is not work.

You apply for a Non-Immigrant B Visa for conducting business. During this time you apply for your work permit which will allow you to 
apply for a 1-Year Non-Immigrant Visa (Multiple-Entry).

There is a difference between signing as a director or signing as an investor. 

 

But to the point of the OP, driving a loaded van/car is considered transportation, even if you are not delivering anything yourself.  
If you want to drive the car/van yourself you better make sure it is empty. I know it is a very gray area but try to explain to immigration or police you neither stole those goods and/or you are not transporting them.